smucreo Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I'm sure everyone has thought of this but I just read it, Arkhan with the Orb spell looks like a mortal wound cannon! Make it happen twice with the9+ and you have 2d6 per unit within 18" (on a line of course) thanks to his command ability! And it's not even that unlikely considering he has +2 to cast, it should happen 54% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 having a unit come back in the game is objectively less good than just having two of that same unit from the start, and even if there was some advantage in holding one of the units in reserve or deploying from a gravesite, you can still already do so with the units you just buy up front instead of having to jump through a bunch of arbitrary hurdles AND get lucking on a die roll even then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Sception said: having a unit come back in the game is objectively less good than just having two of that same unit from the start, and even if there was some advantage in holding one of the units in reserve or deploying from a gravesite, you can still already do so with the units you just buy up front instead of having to jump through a bunch of arbitrary hurdles AND get lucking on a die roll even then. No it isn't, because objectively speaking objectives matter for most of the game. The moment you can do something later during a turn (timing) the better it becomes. It's the difference between having to do something in the Hero phase vs having to do something at the end stages of the Combat phase. If you had something planned for reserve allready and have copies of the same unit it's again an additional bonus. Not worse as something you start out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I have to agree, if you are going to summon from your grave sites it's much easier to just do so instead of waiting for a very specific subset of conditions to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, smucreo said: I'm sure everyone has thought of this but I just read it, Arkhan with the Orb spell looks like a mortal wound cannon! Make it roll twice and you have 2d6 per unit within 18" (on a line of course) thanks to his command ability! And it's not even that unlikely considering he has +2 to cast, it should happen 54% of the time. The orb spell requires a 4+ roll to hit units it passes over, making it half as good as you imply. On average, Arkhan only deals d6 mortals to each unit passed over when LoS triggers. That's still not terrible, especially with the increased range from his command ability, and it's capable of doing more, but it's also capable of doing nothing at all. I'm more interested in the possibilities of arkhan double-casting soul harvest & hitting every enemy unit in 9 inches for 2d3 mortals without any chance of just missing, and getting back a wound for 1/3 of the wounds caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, smucreo said: I have to agree, if you are going to summon from your grave sites it's much easier to just do so instead of waiting for a very specific subset of conditions to happen. There is nothing you have to wait for. You can do this AND have the option to return. Put this into armylist context and understand that while it's a minor bonus it is a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 No one is going to hold a units worth of points in reserve hoping for something that might happen once in a dozen games instead of playing with an extra unit in each and every one of those games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, Sception said: No one is going to hold a units worth of points in reserve hoping for something that might happen once in a dozen games instead of playing with an extra unit in each and every one of those games. Just because you arn't going to do it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Especially not for as previously mentioned smaller and thus cheaper units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, Sception said: The orb spell requires a 4+ roll to hit units it passes over, making it half as good as you imply. On average, Arkhan only deals d6 mortals to each unit passed over when LoS triggers. That's still not terrible, especially with the increased range from his command ability, and it's capable of doing more, but it's also capable of doing nothing at all. I'm more interested in the possibilities of arkhan double-casting soul harvest & hitting every enemy unit in 9 inches for 2d3 mortals without any chance of just missing, and getting back a wound for 1/3 of the wounds caused. Yeah well technically we could even average that to 3 mw for unit passed when it happens twice, I'm just in a good mood so I imagined a high roll! haha But now that you say it the soul harvest thing may be interesting too, although if you get him so close he has the risk of straight up dying in one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightFire Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Sception said: No one is going to hold a units worth of points in reserve hoping for something that might happen once in a dozen games instead of playing with an extra unit in each and every one of those games. There are multiple ways you can use those reserve points, and its the flexibility of having points in reserve that makes them worth having - the ability to bring on a unit just in the right place at the right time. This is why tzeentch armies often run with reserve points. We need to know all the ways that a LoN army can spend reserve points before we can make judgements about whether and how many it makes sense to have, and it will vary from list to list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 I can see what @Killax is driving at, in that it provides the option to bring a unit back in a different phase to the normal summoning method (whatever that is). I think though until we know exactly how summoning works we don't know how good this ability is vs regular summoning - if we need to "save up points" a la Nurgle then this option for Legion of Sacrament could allow us to reinforce wherever we've placed the gravesite more quickly. My initial impression though is that it sounds amazing but practically might have limited usage in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 the average result for 2x 4+ chance of d6 mortals is 3.5 mortals, but it's a highly variable & unreliable, and fully 25% of the time the result will be zero wounds on a given unit. I prefer more reliable results then that. Hence why I'm similarly unenthused with the Black Gem, and have never been a huge fan of Arkhan's Curse of Years. Average of 2d3 is 4. Better on average, much more reliable. Shorter range, but wider effect, and party friendly. Of course, if arkhan's command ability isn't in effect, the range is only 3" on soul siphon, and it's a forgettable though not terrible spell in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea_wild_owl Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 don't forget that arkhan is a named character and can't take the new warlord traits or artefacts same for nagash and the other mortarchs and new named vlozd nonetheless, I am looking forward to all the new spells and resurrection mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, KnightFire said: There are multiple ways you can use those reserve points, and its the flexibility of having points in reserve that makes them worth having - the ability to bring on a unit just in the right place at the right time. This is why tzeentch armies often run with reserve points. We need to know all the ways that a LoN army can spend reserve points before we can make judgements about whether and how many it makes sense to have, and it will vary from list to list. Timing is so much a key part of AoS... 2017: Blood Tithe table works in the Hero phase. 2018: Blood Tithe table works at the start of the Hero phase. I could write a whole page on how massively more powerful the 'old' Blood Tithe table was versus the current one. To bring it back on point if you are going to resevere any units it's an additional way of being able to summon units at a different time. I don't see this as a massive bonus, but certainly as a minor bonus nontheless. If I am able to summon at the end of the combat phase, the relevancy of that unit is guaranteed for the rest of the turn (objective play) versus me requiring to put that unit there in the hero phase. Meaning it has to eat both shooting and combat phase.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 other characters can take artefacts, so that's not a big loss. Warlord traits might be, but nothing in this preview was advertized as a warlord trait, so it's not clear yet just what if anything a legion of sacrament would be giving up by running its mortarch. I have a hard time imagining a command trait + command ability combo that would be better for this army than Arkhan's though, given just how many casting bonuses they get, with +1 to cast, +1 spell known, models in arkhan's formation casting an extra spell per turn, etc. Especially when both the previewed spells are extremely limited by their range, and improve dramatically with every added inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightFire Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Killax said: I don't see this as a massive bonus, but certainly as a minor bonus nontheless. If I am able to summon at the end of the combat phase, the relevancy of that unit is guaranteed for the rest of the turn (objective play) versus me requiring to put that unit there in the hero phase. Meaning it has to eat both shooting and combat phase.... Indeed - the ability to bring on a unit between "the last opportunity your opponent has to do anything" and "when your opponent scores victory points" is very very powerful indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Sception said: other characters can take artefacts, so that's not a big loss. Warlord traits might be, but nothing in this preview was advertized as a warlord trait, so it's not clear yet just what if anything a legion of sacrament would be giving up by running its mortarch. I have a hard time imagining a command trait + command ability combo that would be better for this army than Arkhan's though, given just how many casting bonuses they get, with +1 to cast, +1 spell known, models in arkhan's formation casting an extra spell per turn, etc. Especially when both the previewed spells are extremely limited by their range, and improve dramatically with every added inch. Actually that's a really interesting point - maybe we're not getting any command traits and they're simply baked into our allegiance abilities. Would mean there's no disadvantage on running our Mortarch as the general - plus we don't lose it when/if they die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, tea_wild_owl said: don't forget that arkhan is a named character and can't take the new warlord traits or artefacts same for nagash and the other mortarchs and new named vlozd nonetheless, I am looking forward to all the new spells and resurrection mechanics I feel like they should do the 40k thing of named characters using a preset Warlord trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoollyMammoth Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 We don't know the actual wording on Locus of Shyish yet. The writer is just describing it, so it could go either way. The actual rule has to clarify - is it from the spell lores only? do you cast the spell twice, or double the effects. If casting twice - can you pick a different unit? All these have very different effects. For the Masters Teachings, it seems like you get to bring a unit back. This comes back to the Ring of Immortality conundrum. Currently - it no longer slays the model to clarify that reinfocement points are not needed. There might be a whole blurb about not costing reinforcement points that they didnt want to add to this article (hopefully). This book clearly seems to be a way to make death more competitive - and being a worse gravesite summon mechanic does not make sense. Given all the hurdles, it seems like they would make it a free unit. Assuming that it is a free unit, then the problem becomes how it works. If I kill 10 models to kill the unit, can my opponent remove the only one out of the bubble last? Or do all 10 count as coming off last? Already I see this needing a FAQ. We also don't know gravesite mechanics - there may be a way to put more down, making this much more plausible. The orb thing to kill models on a 6+ is a lot better than it sounds. Heroes frequently group up behind enemy lines. Treelords like to stick together in hopes of optimizing stomps. Stormcast are always huddling together with Staunch Defender, and the short 3" range for Lighting Chariot. I doubt its going to be the most appealing artifact in the list, but its not a bad option at all. It may be swingy, but if you are taking a battalion and you have an extra artifact, it may be worth holding a hail mary play in your pocket. 13 minutes ago, smucreo said: I'm sure everyone has thought of this but I just read it, Arkhan with the Orb spell looks like a mortal wound cannon! Make it happen twice with the9+ and you have 2d6 per unit within 18" (on a line of course) thanks to his command ability! And it's not even that unlikely considering he has +2 to cast, it should happen 54% of the time. With +1 to cast from his legion and another +1 from a mortis engine and/or cart, its going to happen more than 54% of the time! 5 minutes ago, tea_wild_owl said: don't forget that arkhan is a named character and can't take the new warlord traits or artefacts same for nagash and the other mortarchs and new named vlozd nonetheless, I am looking forward to all the new spells and resurrection mechanics The new legions are built around the named chars so obviously they are not command traits, they are special rules as part of the allegiance. The whole point of this is likely to fix the named char issues with all the best heroes in death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Just now, Envyus said: I feel like they should do the 40k thing of named characters using a preset Warlord trait. Different subject but I do agree. Pre set Command Traits would make Named characters more logical generals like the narrative points them out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Looking back at the previous preview, I'm not sure what flexability you even gain from this. Barring actual summoning spells in the lores (which may or may not be there), there aren't really any other uses for generic reserve points, at least based on the description of the gravesites we got. As from that description, you reserve units, not generic points. So if this ability doesn't trigger, those points very well may be lost. And even if there are other ways to use generic reserve points, this trigger at best happens later in the game, so if you hold back for it you're likely not using those other methods of employing reserve points until much later than they would be useful anyway. Let me put it this way - how many of you regularly used the Ring of Immortality, when it required reserve points? Because this ability is worse then that. At least that ability triggered on a 2+ instead of a 4+, didn't require the opponent to play along, and could bring back your general, saving you command abilities and traits that wouldn't have been shared had you just used those same points on a second identical unit to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: Actually that's a really interesting point - maybe we're not getting any command traits and they're simply baked into our allegiance abilities. Would mean there's no disadvantage on running our Mortarch as the general - plus we don't lose it when/if they die We can probably assume this isn't the case, because the Grand Host of Nagash was already previewed with a command trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightFire Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said: For the Masters Teachings, it seems like you get to bring a unit back. This comes back to the Ring of Immortality conundrum. Currently - it no longer slays the model to clarify that reinfocement points are not needed. There might be a whole blurb about not costing reinforcement points that they didnt want to add to this article (hopefully). This book clearly seems to be a way to make death more competitive - and being a worse gravesite summon mechanic does not make sense. Given all the hurdles, it seems like they would make it a free unit. Its not a free unit, and trying to find interpretations of the wording where maybe they possibly might have meant it was free but forgot to say so is just setting you up for disappointment. As mentioned already, there are lots of abilities in the game that "make no sense" in matched play because they cost reinforcement points, and this may be one of them, or it may be useful situationally if you need a unit in a specific place and it happens in the combat phase rather than the hero phase. Whatever the situation, its not going to be free, but the strength of this book isnt going to be in giving you free stuff, its in synergies and combinations. So far from what we have seen it already offers death a lot of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Sception said: We can probably assume this isn't the case, because the Grand Host of Nagash was already previewed with a command trait. Good point - well made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 minute ago, KnightFire said: there are lots of abilities in the game that "make no sense" in matched play because they cost reinforcement points, and this may be one of them There are... but since the introduction of matched play they've been mostly removing and replacing these abilities with ones that do work under the restrictions of reinforcement points, including the new summonable system in LoN, and the updated wording on the Ring of Immortality in GH17. It seems odd that they would introduce a new problem rule when they seem to be working on removing them otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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