High Elf List

[Keith]

HI all

I have been working on my High Elves , rebasing and touching up some old war damage.

How does my list look  ?

Firstly is it legal ?

Are Silverhelms worth the 140 points or should I rebase some of my spearelves for cheaper battle line ?

Phoenix Guard and White lions , units of 10 or 20 ?

I have no idea  

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Dragonlord (340) - General - Command Trait : Legendary Fighter - Shield & Dragon Lance - Artefact : Talisman of Blinding Light
Dragon Noble (100) - Phoenix Banner
Anointed (80)

Units
5 x Highborn Silver Helms (140)
5 x Highborn Silver Helms (140)
5 x Highborn Silver Helms (140)
20 x Highborn Archers (200)
5 x Dragon Blades (140)
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
20 x White Lions (280)

War Machines
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
 

[MrZakalwe]

Silverhelms are absolutely terrible - basically half the damage of dragonblades at the same cost and Dragonblades are mediocre so that should tell you a lot about Silverhelms! (this is a sore spot for me as I've converted up some pretty cool silverhelm models for AoS and I can't really use them without putting myself at a major disadvantage)

 

I'd replace the Dragon Noble with a Seawarden on foot as their flag is a lot better, replace the helms with spearmen who are pretty decent chaff blockers, bump the archers up to 30, make the seawarden your general and take the general trait that gives a battleshock immunity bubble.

 

The Seawarden command ability used on a 30 strong block of highborn archers using the rain of arrows ability is really, really nasty putting out just over 47 no rend wounds on average (I've instakilled quite a few things including Nagash with this before) and it's basically the only dirty trick us High Elves get so make the most of it

 

I'd also drop 10 phoenix guard to add another 10 white lions- a block of 30 white lions is only 360 points and is battleshock resistant (a steal) so this frees up some points to put some sort of wizard in there.

 

That's my advice based on 6 months trying to get High Elf lists to worth without Phoenix spam.

[Keith]

What a bummer, I have some really nice Silverhelm models.

I guess I'll use them when I play teaching games , so I have a disadvantage.

I do have enough White Lions  I need to have another look at their warscroll to see what you mean about battleshock.

Thanks

[Freejack02]

Phoenix Guard blocks are going to perform better than White Lions I believe. Lions have a 4+ on each model to ignore fleeing, but I don't see that making them better than PG.  MrZakalwe apparently doesn't like Phoenix Temple, but they probably are the strongest High Elves right now. 

[MrZakalwe]

14 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Phoenix Guard blocks are going to perform better than White Lions I believe. Lions have a 4+ on each model to ignore fleeing, but I don't see that making them better than PG.  MrZakalwe apparently doesn't like Phoenix Temple, but they probably are the strongest High Elves right now. 

 

Also good advice- I like my Phoenix Guard but I was trying to keep the list as intact as possible and the crazy cheap cost of the Lions at 30 is easier to shoehorn in than bringing the PG to 30. Looking at it again you could probably accomplish the same thing by dropping 10 WLs to bump the PG up to 30 and get the same result without the change.

 

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding it really hard to justify not including 12ppm White Lions in all of my order lists these days (though I also run PG religiously).

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, MrZakalwe said:

Maybe it's just me but I'm finding it really hard to justify not including 12ppm White Lions in all of my order lists these days (though I also run PG religiously).

Their 3/3/-1/1 combat line is quite attractive for the price (except for the 1" range). I just feel like the extra toughness from Witness and the double range (even more important on small-base block infantry) makes PG worth the 14ppm premium. Not to mention Phoenix Guard having a very good stand alone faction (with allies), and White Lions being much more difficult in that regard. 

[swarmofseals]

As far as White Lions vs. Phoenix Guard goes, lets do the math! As usual I'll be using WDR (a formula of my own devising that allows you to compare damage efficiency across multiple damage types) and basic defensive efficiency. Higher WDR is better and lower defensive efficiency is better. As far as getting models into combat, it's a bit hard to quantify how much of an impact the extra 1" range has on Phoenix Guard. Because both models are on 25mm rounds, the White Lions can fight in 2 ranks and the Phoenix Guard in 3. I'm going to look at three offensive scenarios: small frontage (5 models in base to base with the enemy), medium frontage (10 models in base to base), and large frontage (15 models in base to base).

WDR (small frontage/medium frontage/large frontage)

White Lion - .034/.067/.1

Phoenix Guard- .033/.065/.065

 

Defensive efficiency (vs rend 1/2/mortal)

White Lion - 6/8/10/12

Phoenix Guard - 3.5/4.67/5.83/7

 

White Lions fare slightly better against shooting, of course. 

When you drill down on the offensive numbers further, you'll find that the Phoenix Guard outperform White Lions on offense against 6+ and - saves while breaking even against 5+ saves in the "small" and "medium" frontage scenarios while the White Lions are better against 4+ saves or better. 

Basically, the White Lions are only convincingly more efficient on offense than Phoenix Guard when they can bring all of their attacks to bear. In the context of Massive Regiments, this will require a very large engagement. It's much more likely when we're discussing smaller unit sizes. For 20 and 10 man squads, it's much more likely that White Lions will convincingly outperform Phoenix Guard on offense.

On defense of course it's no contest at all. The Phoenix Guard are among the most efficient choices in the Grand Alliance on defense across all damage types. White Lions get a nice bonus against battleshock, but Phoenix Guard are completely immune from battleshock if near a Phoenix Temple hero. 

Then you also have to factor in the fact that there is a command ability which buffs Phoenix Temple units while no such ability exists for Lion Rangers. With that buff active, Phoenix Guard close the gap considerably in the large frontage scenario (raising their WDR to  .086) and pull ahead of the White Lions in the other scenarios. 

Finally, we should consider role appropriateness. Infantry are naturally better suited to defense rather than offense due to their relative lack of speed. Being hard to shift off an objective and tough enough to survive to get stuck in are traits that will basically always be useful for infantry, while high offense is more situational. 

 

Overall, I think that Phoenix Guard are solidly better than White Lions. That said, White Lions are absolutely good enough to be viable so if you like the models then you're not exactly getting punished on the table for taking them. 

[Keith]

Quote

 

Ok thanks , I'm happy that both Phoenix Guard and White Lions are Ok , as I have both

The problem remain the Battleline for me if Silverhelms are not a good choice , then Spearelves , which I have plenty but they don't inspire me

 

 

[Freejack02]

Well, I don't think you would have trouble running the Silverhelms as Reavers (formerly Ellyrian Reavers) - I believe they are still generic Order battleline for an extra 20 points. I personally would have no issue with it, as the models are fairly similar. They switch to more of a ranged focus unit, while losing bonuses on charge. 

[Keith]

Ok thanks

I have some Reavers somewhere , need to find the warscroll too

 

[swarmofseals]

18 minutes ago, Keith said:

Ok thanks

I have some Reavers somewhere , need to find the warscroll too

 

 

They are a bit pricey but are absurdly fast and have a reasonable shooting profile. I'd definitely recommend them over Silver Helms, but I generally like a mix of spearmen and reavers if going generic High Elves/Mixed Order. 

[Keith]

OK thanks

I have 10 Reavers painted and re based now , so I at least have some options.

Any advice on bolt throwers , are they worth taking , I have 3 painted.

 

 

 

[Keith]

Hi all

My first game with my newly rebased High Elves tmrw night vs Ironjawz. This will be my 5th game of AOS

 

Here is my list.

The Lore master is supposed to make the dragon reliable.

The spears are chaff , designed to take the first wave from the enemy.

Shooting to soften them up , seawarden makes the shooting more reliable.

Reavers for Battleline and fun movement shenanigans.

Phoenix Guard and White lions to keep the enemy honest.

The Chariot is because I had 80 points left.

 

Allegiance: Order

Leaders

 

Seawarden on Foot (100)

- General

- Command Trait : Inspiring

 

Loremaster (100)

 

Dragonlord (340)

- Shield & Dragon Lance

- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion

 

Units

 

20 x Highborn Spearmen (160)

5 x Reavers (160)

5 x Reavers (160)

20 x Highborn Archers (200)

20 x Phoenix Guard (320)

10 x White Lions (140)

1 x Chariots (80)

 

War Machines

Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)

Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Allies: 0 / 400

Leaders: 3/6 Battlelines: 4 (3+) Behemoths: 1/4 Artillery: 2/4

Wounds: 131

 

 

 

 

 

[Agent of Chaos]

It looks like a solid and well balanced list using the best the high elves can offer and the game plan sounds solid. Give the green skins hell!

[Cinncinnatus]

I like the list, but is there a reason the Dragonlord isn't your general. Just asking because I am currently running one in a Path to Glory, and it's command ability to reroll hits for Order Draconis units is huge since it buffs the Dragonlord itself. Sure you've got the Loremaster for the rerolls to hit and wound, but if the Dragonlord gets too far away having the Lord of Dragons command ability to fall back on is helpful. Also means you can just leave the Loremaster back with the bolt throwers and worry as much about the Dragonlord (Bolt Throwers loooove Hand of Glory). I recommend Legendary Fighter (if you make it your general) and Obstinate blade for the Dragonlord. Getting -2 Rend with the Lord's attacks is just mean.  

[Valenae]

Do you know that Seawarden buffs only Highborn?

Most of your units don't buffed with it.

 

[Keith]

Yeah I realize that , he is there for the archers and bolt throwers .

I had my first game with a slightly different list  .

Things didn't go well , we used the open war cards and it was night , so only 12" range , and then we had a 2nd twist that our armies must be deployed in 3 waves  

 

As you can see below , these Ironjaws were onto my Phoenix Guard turn1 , they held for one phase , but I was sorry to find out they have no rend , good tarpit unit but they dont do much damage.

 

The objective ended up on the Ironjaws side of the table , I split my army up etc , this meant his reinforcements were coming on right near the objective.

 

The White Lions actually took and held the objective for a turn , but all my shooting was rendered useless by the twist , the Dragon did really well , but he was left facing too many Ironjaws by the end of turn 4 and we called it.

 

 

[Keith]

This was the list I used.

Seawarden on Foot (100)
- General
- Command Trait : Inspiring
Dragonlord (340)
- Shield & Dragon Lance
- Artefact : Phoenix Stone
Loremaster (100)

Units
10 x Highborn Spearmen (80)
20 x Highborn Archers (200)
30 x White Lions (360)
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
10 x Highborn Spearmen (80)
5 x Reavers (160)

War Machines
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)
Highborn Repeater Bolt Thrower (120)

Total: 1980 /2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Leaders: 3/6 Battlelines: 4 (3+) Behemoths: 1/4 Artillery: 2/4
Wounds: 136

[Cinncinnatus]

Tough break on the scenario. That's actually one of the reasons I love Open War cards, though, the unpredictable nature of them makes for interesting games where you almost have to play against your own list.

I see what you are going for with the Seawarden now and it looks like a solid game plan. I'm still not sold on him as your general though. The shooting attacks from the archers having no rend makes them really conditional. Losing even one archer hurts their effectiveness. I'd seriously consider swapping out the Phoenix Stone for the Obstinate Blade. The Dragonlords rerolling all saves already makes him super tanky. That extra rend just makes him a super can opener. And since you are rocking the Lance, you want that damage to have as high of a chance of going through on the charge as possible.

[Keith]

Ok thanks

I need to play a few more games  , but the Phoenix stone was handy.

Some Goregruntas came on the table , 9" away from the dragon , and got the charge off.

They did 8 wounds to the dragon , then the dragon ate them all , so the next two hero phases the dragon was back to 6 wounds and ready to charge someone.

A second dragon would be very handy

 

 

[Aezeal]

On 17-12-2017 at 9:44 AM, Keith said:

OK thanks

I have 10 Reavers painted and re based now , so I at least have some options.

Any advice on bolt throwers , are they worth taking , I have 3 painted.

 

 

 

Use a loremaster next to 2 boltthrowers... if you also have a big model like a dragon: only more targets for one of the best buffs out there (though single model).