'Competitive' Ironjawz

[LordDrakonus]

3 hours ago, Dez said:

Had a game this weekend too, Week3 Season of War scenario. Put da boot to dem no good Pointy Eared gitz again!

Now granted, this is my opponents only experience with Age of Sigmar, he thinks the Ironjawz are SUPER powerful. I'm inclined to agree somewhat, given how fast they can move. I got some hot rolls, and I think I averaged 15 inch moves (Rolled tons of 6's and we were using the abilities for that week). 

I do find that Ironjawz are very spikey when it comes down to dice rolls, bad charge rolls and what not can really ****** us. That's why I really llike gorefist that 15" no matter what is very nice.

[Dez]

Exactly, my Warchanter and Megaboss buffed unit of 10 Brutes foofed a 5 inch charge, and I think the rest of the HQ section (Megaboss, Warchanter, Weirdnob) averaged about 5 inches in the Hero phase. I lost the buff zone

[Chris Tomlin]

I do find it interesting to read it when people are finding Ironjawz "super powerful", as this really is not my experience!! Sure they seem decent, and probably every game I've played post GH I've had a chance in (as has my opponent - which makes for good games certainly). It think it's all down to the meta you're playing in and the sort of games being played I guess - one of the reasons this forum is so good as we have a nice variety of people I think.

I can't outright say they aren't good in a competitive (Tournament) sense, as we just haven't really seen enough of them at events in the UK yet (though pure Ironjawz have not placed well in the few instances they have been used). I think by the end of the year we'll have had a few big 2 dayers and will have a better idea of this. I suspect we'll start branching into Destruction as a whole alliance if wanting to be "Competitive".

...Not that it really matters, as obviously this won't be relevant to some people whatsoever!!  As long as we are all having fun eh?That said, this thread is called "Competitive" Ironjawz. I guess there may be different degrees or interpretations of the word "Competitive"?

[Garxia]

What's your opinions about Ardboys? IMO, they are a bit underestimated.

Looking at your lists, you use 10 at most and, at least on paper, they seem really useful.

 

PROS

- Extra bodies for objetives (can bunker with shields?).

- Customisable, durable with good armor and 2 wounds.

- Bravery 8 at cc with the banner, the icon, with 2 W and 4+ save, they probably won't run.

- Best unit for buffing weirdnobs (more heads to explode!!).

CONS

- Brutes are cooler, hittier and maybe better.

- Old models, smaller and less flashy than brutes.

- They seem to be so... average, not really good stats, not really bad.

 

ATM I'm planning on using 2 units of 10, armed with 7/3 GW/shield split with full command (Banner, icon, musician). Dual weapons seems inferior.

- So, what's your thoughts/experiences about them?

- What's the best loadout in your opinion? How are you equipping the ardboys?

- Would be a full 10 shield unit be any good for holding objectives?

[Dez]

For me, the Jury is still out on the Ardboyz. Which makes it tough, they are some of my favorite models and I have over 80 of them but man...they don't seem to put a dent into anything. This makes me reassess how I'm using them. The scenarios we've been playing are for the Campaign, which has been mostly about killing  Perhaps they are better used as Objective takers with shields and big numbers?

 

[Chris Tomlin]

@Garxia - I actually think you are spot on and it is my inclination that we will see more and more Ardboyz making their way into pure Ironjawz lists that are trying to be competitive, for many of the reasons you listed (Not the Weirdnob one. Leave the Shaman at home!!).

People are slowly (but very surely) realising that 3 Gore-gruntas for the cost of 10 Ardboyz just isn't comparable. The main problem for Ardboyz is that aesthetically they aren't as cool as the new stuff, which everyone has bought en masse currently. That said, we are all snapping up SC boxes left, right and centre so will all be overloaded with them soon enough!

I have nearly finished painting 10 and its been a painful task (leading to me renaming them Arduous Boyz - thanks @Forestreveries).

If you want to discuss ways to equip them, there was a thread a while back -

I think for a lot of people it comes to what modelling options they have available as they don't give you enough in the box. I think mostly Big Choppas, maybe with a couple of Shields is nice. Interested to see how a unit of 10 with Shields plays though...

[Chris Tomlin]

9 minutes ago, Dez said:

The scenarios we've been playing are for the Campaign, which has been mostly about killing  Perhaps they are better used as Objective takers with shields and big numbers?

 

Again this goes back to my previous post about different people playing in different ways. All of the General's Handbook Matched Play battleplans all require some form of objective grabbing (although sometimes Heroes are needed) based around the number of models - this is where Ardboyz can shine over anything else available to us.

If people are essentially playing "kill" scenarios, it doesn't surprise me that Ironjawz would appear very powerful.

[Sangfroid]

So last night I had a game against a pure bonesplittas list, now I have been using my Axes of Skarbrand Warband for the season of war but the experience is very applicable to Ironjawz (as that's where my heart is really). Ardboyz and Goregruntas are vital pieces and while neither hit as hard s brutes having a balance of all three will be the key to all lists if your trying to play them competitively in a multi game tournament. 

bonesplittas (and other shoots armies) can often deploy in a single or very low number of drops, because our formations all lacks a Megaboss at best we will only ever be a two drop army but I suspect the sweet spot will be 3-5 drops (cabbage, Megaboss, chanter, formation) so last night my opponent rightly let me go first and so as khorne the only option is to run head long forwards and then weather a round of shooting hoping not to get double turned, sadly he did get double turn and so going into my T2 I had around 600pts left out of 2000pts, it was a massacre but even then the 600ts managed to hold out to turn 4 once actually in combat. 

In my mind I could see how Ironjawz and in particular ardboyz and gore gruntas would have potentially tipped the balance against an army list like that. 

In in a Ironfist (with ravager trait) on average dice a unit of Ardboyz is able to attempt a 11" charge turn one (but only 9" is needed to roll due to drummer.) with gordrakks command ability that's an above average chance of succeeding but even without it its roughly 27% chance to succeed so with 2 units of ardboyz that's a slightly above average chance of one getting in to the enemy's face and hitting on them T1 before they buff up and get immunity to battle shock maybe.  

So the enemy then has to decide do I take turn 1 to buff up and position myself where I want to, or  do I deploy further back to prevent this (thus then making weapons range less effective plus further from objectives potentially) or do I just ride the % and hope the ironjawz fail and then I get the double turn. 

For Goregruntas the average charge ends up at just 6" from an ironfist (3" from a gorefist as we know). In both cases the enemy has to deal with the units in his face potentially is limited in forward movement (and thus getting to objectives maybe) or not being able to target our characters or brutes. Or if they can do they let the ardboyz and pigs get in unscathed? Choices lead to mistakes and as a shooty list is our hardest counter we need luck and enemy mistakes to help out :-)

similarly against tough combat lists the range of the ardboyz and gore gruntas may mean we stop the synergy of the enemy or allow us to deploy very deep but still reach out in our turn and get charges in unexpectedly. 

Thats why we need ardboyz and gruntas for battlefield control and enabling our real hitters (Megaboss and brutes and cabbages) to get to where we want them largely unscathed and charging so going first priority wise. 

If you look at it 3 gore grunts does roughly the same damage output as 10 ardboyz armed with 2handers (obviously all ardboyz attacks would rend in this example) and if they charge more than 8" the gore grunta pul away 10 ardboyz with 2 Hw do around 3 more wounds but have no rend. Ultimately its opponent and special ability dependent but you could "roughly" say that both units hit about the same which is around 6-10 wounds at varying rends. It's not shoot the lights out but that's 3 dead bonesplittas maybe that drops the unit down a whole level so they all lose a shot etc... Or 6 dead skeletons (even they can battleshock off a couple of models on a bad roll etc...) 

brutes should not really be compared equally to ardboyz or gruntas unless you factor in they would have needed an 11" charge and would have been much more likely to get shot up before they get in and smash more face. 

I may have said this before in this thread but in summary the choice between ardboyz and gruntas and brutes is smaller footprint less wounds faster pigs or slower, larger footprint more wounds ardboyz, or slowest less wounds harder hitting brutes. 

In a allcomers tourney list striking the balance between the three and then that with the % devoted to characters is the utopia :-)

[LordDrakonus]

@SangfroidGreat points! I've found in my matched play game I've really had a use for every unit! If i was to say spam Brutes I think it would lose alot of its power.

[Sangfroid]

Well da rest of dem silly faktions r chasin da filth a ova dere place I thought I'd leave dis lil nugget ere. 

10 ardboyz armed with any combo of 2 hander or 2 hand weapons on average will do 5 wounds to a hurricalnium

3 gore gruntas also do 5 wounds 

5 brutes can kill it or at least av off 9-10 wounds

mawcrusha kills it outright 

gordrakk..... Yeah he doesn't even let Bigteef get a lookin 

only need 3 to drop it down to only 2 shots, 7 wounds to get it down to one shot. 

Pray to Gorkamorka dat the stinky hummies and dere friends all take 3 to every event and we should be smashin up some face :-)

[rasmarog]

Hi, I saw a lot of Ironjawz armies using:

Gordrakk
Mega boss
Warchanter
Shaman
3x5 Brutes
10 Ardboyz
3 gruntas

Shaman is a lot overpriced for his attributes. Warchanter seens to be better. Gordrakk its better than MB MawCrusha but, if you drop Shaman, MegaBoss and Gordrakk, You have more 960pt, being able to:

MegaBoss Mawcrusha
2x Warchanter
3x 5 brutes
2x 10 ardboys
2x 6 gruntas

With this, You can have gruntas on both flanks to speed things up, Use MawCrusha to smash tough enemies, while brutes come for a second wave, boosted by the warchanters, and ardboys hold objectives.

[Arkiham]

Went up against a list of; 30 brutes, 6 pig riders, 2 mega bosses and 2 war chanters and some battalion. 

was crushed as chaos, really struggling to think of a way to beat that unless i build to counter that army list. turn 2 combat. thought i had a reasonably strong list. guess not. 

[Nico]

Quote

Went up against a list of; 30 brutes, 6 pig riders, 2 mega bosses and 2 war chanters and some battalion. 

was crushed as chaos, really struggling to think of a way to beat that unless i build to counter that army list. turn 2 combat. thought i had a reasonably strong list. guess not. 

Don't tell me you were using Mortal Tzeentch? Got to admire your persistence.

As discussed, Slaves to Darkness based armies are near the bottom of the pile. 

[Sangfroid]

9 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Went up against a list of; 30 brutes, 6 pig riders, 2 mega bosses and 2 war chanters and some battalion. 

was crushed as chaos, really struggling to think of a way to beat that unless i build to counter that army list. turn 2 combat. thought i had a reasonably strong list. guess not. 

Good this is the destruction forum we need more stories of da chaos boyz getting der eds bashed!

[Arkiham]

No, it was mostly bloodbound. 40 blood warriors, 5 skullreapers reapers, WoK thirster, dp, warshrine, aspiring deathbringer general and 2 Bloodsecrators.

Positioned my general so he ran around giving the extra attack so the blood warriors had 5 each. 4 units of 10. The attacks they got was pretty much from dying.

The list nearly beat a stormcast list which was good had I not messed up an forgot about some rerolls.

[Nico]

Ok. Fair enough. WoK Bloodthirster is a big waste of resources unless he's with Daemons or preferably with Bloodletter Bomb. Warshrine is junk in my opinion (Tzeentch one is decent). I guess a big problem you had is slow movement against his Rampaging Destroyers. You might have been better off with one huge (30) unit of Blood Warriors, so that it would lose the guys from impact hits and his attacks and still be able to attack back with 20 models. Now that Skullreapers are no longer Daemons, I don't think they are worth it. Wrathmongers are better.

[Nico]

Ok. Fair enough. WoK Bloodthirster is a waste of resources unless he's with Daemons or preferably with Bloodletter Bomb. Warshrine is meh in my opinion (Tzeentch one is decent). I guess a big problem you had is slow movement against his Rampaging Destroyers and Cavalry. You might have been better off with one huge (30) unit of Blood Warriors, so that it would lose the guys from impact hits and his attacks and still be able to attack back with 20+ models. Now that Skullreapers are no longer Daemons, I don't think they are worth it. Wrathmongers are better.

[Papapene]

What is this ardnob everyone is talking about?? Is it the green skins boss? And if you took it with your Ironjawz wouldn't you loose the "counts as battleline" ability??

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[N_Watson]

There is a Black Orc Big Boss in the AOS app and in the compendium points section of the Generals Handbook that has the Ironjawz keyword. This means you can take it and it doesn't affect battle line qualifications.  

[Papapene]

So I was gonna try something but I thought I might see if anyone else has done it yet before I spend hundreds on the models! So I was thinking about running a gore fist formation along with Gordrakk. In the hero phase I'll use two chanters to buff up two of the units of Gruntas and then gordrakks ability on them. Move them up with rampaging destroyers then then formations 15 inches. I'll pull them up 8 inches short of the opponent and charge them in on 3 dice doing 2 extra attacks. I worked it out earlier today and it's potentially 162 damage from 9 guys just on the fanged maw and hooves attack, another potential 45 for their choppas. Has anyone tried this?? In only considering this caus I've been making 6 - 10 inch charges pretty reliably on 3 dice in the last few games I've played. It's 1340 for Gordrakk and the three gore Gruntas plus the formation. That's enough points left over for a megaboss and a couple squads of brutes to come clean up what's left. Before I buy 2 more quads of gore Gruntas I was wondering has anyone tried this???

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[N_Watson]

I think @Mitzy ran a gore fist and Gordrakk recently at a tournament. My concern would be that the gorefist is expensive and Goregruntas, even with the charge bonus seem to be the least hittiest of our stuff. Also, you need to to remember that you alternate combat so charging into a bunch of the enemy with half your army first turn might not be worth it. 

The ironfist gives much more flexibility and it allows our full force to move up together. 

[Papapene]

I find moving the units 2D6+2 inches is too random they're falling out of coherency of each other and the heroes providing the buffs. I'm in a bit of a rut with my army at the moment to be honest. I did well initially against all the guys I play at the games store but now I'm on a 3 game loosing skid. I can't deal with the mortal wound output from the Stormcast and seraphon players. All it takes is a little clever deployment and I can't get to their heroes which is devastating when there's guys with 2+ saves rerolling ones on The Stardrakes or the front line seraphon troops. It seems that I beat them down initially and their armies are flexible do they're found other ways to play and I'm limited to run up and smash. Hence why I'm looking for different ways to play my army... I love this game and I LOVE the Ironjawz minis but I'm finding them a little inflexible... 

[Sangfroid]

I'd say the gore first with gordrakk is a good choice but I'd charge from 3" to guarantee all 3 units get into combat. The d3 wounds is nice but eventually you will roll a failed charge as the average charge on 3 d6 is 10 so not that far off 7. Why take the risk at all because with the 3" charge it's concrete:-)

[Papapene]

You can quadruple your potential damage output... Seems like the risk is worth the reward. I wonder if my good friend will let me proxy something so I can test drive it. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

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[Mitzy]

22 hours ago, N_Watson said:

I think @Mitzy ran a gore fist and Gordrakk recently at a tournament. My concern would be that the gorefist is expensive and Goregruntas, even with the charge bonus seem to be the least hittiest of our stuff. Also, you need to to remember that you alternate combat so charging into a bunch of the enemy with half your army first turn might not be worth it. 

The ironfist gives much more flexibility and it allows our full force to move up together. 

I did indeed, I kind of agree with you, but when it works it works well. I think having the ability to shift half my army after deployment has the potential to leave slower armies "swinging in the breeze". 9 Gore Gruntas and Gorefist formation comes in at 660pts I'm happy with this investment as the "right" units are crushed on the charge. And the "wrong" units take a while to cut through all the pig iron leaving me to deal with the rest of my opponents army.

Don't underestimate the formations ability to ruin your opponent's best laid plans!

Finally at 2k for me Gordrakk isn't worth the points. You can do better with a couple of Megaboss's IMO.