Grand vs specific allegiance

[Xin]

Hi to all! 

With the new GH17 what is your opinion about power lever between grand alliances cherry picking army and subfactions with their own artefacts and CT? 

[Thanatos Ares]

Options vs Synergies is ultimately what it boils down to. And not all 'factions' have their own allegiance abilities and artefacts (yet!)


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[BaldoBeardo]

Hi to all! 
With the new GH17 what is your opinion about power lever between grand alliances cherry picking army and subfactions with their own artefacts and CT? 

Not sure I get the question; you can't cherry pick because you either get the alliance allegiance or the faction one - if you have the faction one, you're limiting what you can have (with the exception of allies) which has always had better boons. As such, power level between the alliances should be even closer, as this edition of the GHB was intended to smooth things over.

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[Xin]

6 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Not sure I get the question; you can't cherry pick because you either get the alliance allegiance or the faction one - if you have the faction one, you're limiting what you can have (with the exception of allies) which has always had better boons. As such, power level between the alliances should be even closer, as this edition of the GHB was intended to smooth things over.

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Ok so this way.  Is there a faction stronger than Grand Allegiance? Like Fyreslayers better than order or Brayherd than Chaos

[BaldoBeardo]

I think the question should be the other way around - are there any *factions* where you'd take the alliance abilities instead? As I said, the whole point of faction is to provide more candy for restricting yourself so faction>allegiance should be the norm...

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[BURF1]

8 hours ago, Xin said:

Ok so this way.  Is there a faction stronger than Grand Allegiance? Like Fyreslayers better than order or Brayherd than Chaos

You're looking for a Y/N answer to a subjective 'it depends' type question. The truth is A) nobody knows what's strong yet and B) even if they did, they probably wouldn't agree with anyone else about it.

[Killax]

I personally would pick this at your own insight and flavour preforance. Knowing that some cannot choose which flavour they even like.

With the latest FAQ and Errata's to follow I think the design intend to have all Allegiances be relevant is going very well. Some Allegiance abilities are really good but then you see that the units you can pick them with arn't backbreaking anymore (Desciples of Tzeentch or Chaos or Slaves to Darkness).
Likewise some units are extremely good but then you see that the Allegiance abilities arn't backbreaking (Blades of Khorne). 

So in the end pick whatever you feel thematically fits you as a player and your army. 

[13on2D6]

I have looked through and for me I am sticking with Chaos grand alliance as BoK allegiance doesn't outweigh the flexibility that chaos grand alliance will even with blood tithe points!

[chord]

For Order I think the faction allegiances vastly outweigh the Grand Alliance.   

[13on2D6]

Just now, chord said:

For Order I think the faction allegiances vastly outweigh the Grand Alliance.   

Even limiting your tactical options with a mix of the best units from across the grand alliance?

[chord]

Just now, 13on2D6 said:

Even limiting your tactical options with a mix of the best units from across the grand alliance?

I hear this all the time but yet if you're looking at matched play, the generic battle line units are not great. And there are almost zero synergies across factions.  (check the sticky in the order forum) Because of the lack of synergy you get a few "islands" of synergy that IMO do not make up for the synergies and better traits/artifacts. 

 

[13on2D6]

Cool was just asking for your opinion and input.

I think it will be a time of experimenting different things for me, I have seen a few good 'anti- horde' heroes/units I am going to try out, and will try out the BoK and also the Clan SKyre allegiance over the coming months as well as a Chaotic Chaos list with goodies from all over!

[DrDemento]

I've been thinking about this too, and agree too early to say in generalities, and ultimately depends on many factors including points limit (1,000 v 2,000).   For example, I can say looking at Order for dwarves that grand alliance seems better than Dispossessed (let alone needing to break faction to get more than 400 pts artillery/iron weld at 2k) but for Seraphon the faction abilities are definitely better than grand order.

[Cerlin]

3 hours ago, DrDemento said:

I've been thinking about this too, and agree too early to say in generalities, and ultimately depends on many factors including points limit (1,000 v 2,000).   For example, I can say looking at Order for dwarves that grand alliance seems better than Dispossessed (let alone needing to break faction to get more than 400 pts artillery/iron weld at 2k) but for Seraphon the faction abilities are definitely better than grand order.

I dont know about your examples. Dispossessed run best together I find. 10 thunderers are more reliable and harder to snipe than an organ gun and can reroll 1s to hit and wound easily.  All dispossessed need is speed or movement, and the pickaxe gives them that. You could also bring some allied Skyrigger for speed.

Order alliegance just is the same as before with a slight tweak and still feels weakest to me.

[Thanatos Ares]

Order alliegance just is the same as before with a slight tweak and still feels weakest to me.

I would say that generic death is the weakest imho


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[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, Thanatos Ares said:

I would say that generic death is the weakest imho

 

I disagree -- the Death GA package is still strong. The Order GA package is a lot weaker. This is specifically talking about the alliance ability packages though, not the strength of the GA as a whole!

 

To respond to the original question, I think that most of the new allegiance packages are strong enough to merit consideration. Overall the power curve has been flattened somewhat and there are fewer warscrolls that stand out as being obviously broken on their own. As a result, being able to mix and match the "best" things from the whole GA is a lot less of a big deal now. There are a few exceptions, but far fewer than there used to be.

Allies also mitigate this to some extent, although not to an equal degree for every faction.

So basically in each case its a combination of internal synergies, faction allegiance package, allies, and "battleline if" flexibility vs. alliance allegiance package and the ability to pick and choose the best warscrolls at each role. There are very few factions where I'd never really consider the former option. These tend to be factions that are very narrow and either have weak internal synergy or weak faction packages. The example that jumps to mind is Nighthaunt, which is an extremely narrow roster that has basically no internal synergy and a faction package that is interesting but not obviously powerful. 

Also keep in mind that many if not most players are not trying to absolutely min-max everything. Putting an army together that looks good on the table is also a consideration. Even for a competitive list, my High Elves are probably going to stick to High Elf Spearmen as battleline instead of the superior Freeguild Guard for exactly this reason.

 

[Cerlin]

6 hours ago, Thanatos Ares said:

 

I would say that generic death is the weakest imho


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Just compare the abilities. 6+ wound save, you can make a mage with your command ability (awesome and doesnt break allegience), New Ring of Immortality (no points), Tomb blade (healing), and those are just some.

Order basically gets "runs away less" and some +1s to stats.  The most useful command trait for me from order before was reckless, and that got pretty hardily nerfed. Before all friendlies in 10 inches could reroll failed charges, now just the general.

[Azamar]

I'm looking at this choice at the moment with my dwarfs. I've previously used a 2000 point army based around a grudgebound war throng with some added artillery. 

With ghb 2017 this army has, coincidentally, remained 2,000 points as the reductions for some of the units is offset by the increase in the battalion cost. 

I would need to tweak the army of i wanted to run a dispossessed alligience as the ironweld units are over the 400 points, and there would be no point in spending 160 points on the battalion with basically the same bonuses as the alligience abilities. On the plus side, hammerers as battline is great, and the pickaxe artefact would overcome the main drawback of my army- it's limitations when trying to capture objectives on the far side of the table.

However, if I keep the army as is, with the generic order alliegence, it feels like the best of both worlds. I'd still have the same bonuses as a dispossessed alliegence, but with the added bonus of rerolling battle shock. A second attempt at the 1-3 auto pass means very few losses from battle shock. 

On paper the order artefacts feel stronger overall compared to the dispossessed ones, especially now the Phoenix stone works in every hero phase, not just your own. The relic blade on the battalion's unforged is particularly nasty against chaos armies, allowing a potential 24 damage in one go and a good chance of getting most of his attacks through. 

In short, this may not a clear cut choice for dispossessed armies, but I'll need to play around with the new command traits and artefacts before I really decide. 

 

 

 

[Cerlin]

5 hours ago, Azamar said:

I'm looking at this choice at the moment with my dwarfs. I've previously used a 2000 point army based around a grudgebound war throng with some added artillery. 

With ghb 2017 this army has, coincidentally, remained 2,000 points as the reductions for some of the units is offset by the increase in the battalion cost. 

I would need to tweak the army of i wanted to run a dispossessed alligience as the ironweld units are over the 400 points, and there would be no point in spending 160 points on the battalion with basically the same bonuses as the alligience abilities. On the plus side, hammerers as battline is great, and the pickaxe artefact would overcome the main drawback of my army- it's limitations when trying to capture objectives on the far side of the table.

However, if I keep the army as is, with the generic order alliegence, it feels like the best of both worlds. I'd still have the same bonuses as a dispossessed alliegence, but with the added bonus of rerolling battle shock. A second attempt at the 1-3 auto pass means very few losses from battle shock. 

On paper the order artefacts feel stronger overall compared to the dispossessed ones, especially now the Phoenix stone works in every hero phase, not just your own. The relic blade on the battalion's unforged is particularly nasty against chaos armies, allowing a potential 24 damage in one go and a good chance of getting most of his attacks through. 

In short, this may not a clear cut choice for dispossessed armies, but I'll need to play around with the new command traits and artefacts before I really decide. 

 

 

 

Ooh good catch on the Pheonix stone. I didnt notice that tweak.

[GammaMage]

Hmm, some of the Order Allegiance stuff actually works pretty decently lore-wise for a Phoenix Conclave. I wonder if my opponents will let my play my purple-flamed 'dark phoenix' conversion as a Frostheart...