Tzeentch Centrepiece

[Tzaangor Management]

I'm closing in on finishing the paint job on a 1000 point Tzeentch force (my first army) and am thinking about adding a centerpiece model as part of the transition to 1500, as well as to push my painting a little further. I wouldn't describe it as a competitive list, but I think it probably forms a reasonable Foundation and as such I don't want to buy a donkey that'll never see the table.

The question is: is there a scenario where this isn't the Lord of Change?

The choices, without breaking the alliance are: LoC, mutilith and lord or sorcerer on Manticore as far as I can see. Am I missing any?

The list at present is:

Gaunt Summoner

Ogroid

Lord of Chaos (on foot)

20 Tzaangor

20 Marauders

3 Skyfires

[Tavendale]

There's the Warshrine.  It's not a great model, but with the rules you could put together something really cool and more fitting to Tzeentch.

[N_Watson]

The Mutalith Vortex Beast of Tzeentch would be a nice center piece as well if you wanted something different from the LoC. 

[TheOtherJosh]

You're missing the following possible choices that can be Tzeentch keyworded:

Soul Grinder

Archaon

Galrauch

Gigantic Chaos Spawn

 

The LoC will potentially see more standard use on the table. (And it's a pretty darn awesome kit)

[Tzaangor Management]

Thanks for the responses.

5 hours ago, Tavendale said:

There's the Warshrine.  It's not a great model, but with the rules you could put together something really cool and more fitting to Tzeentch.

Good catch and definitely worth considering. Have seen some really good conversions for this, which could be a good test. Rules seem so-so, but could be useful. Anyone using one?

4 hours ago, N_Watson said:

The Mutalith Vortex Beast of Tzeentch would be a nice center piece as well if you wanted something different from the LoC. 

Really like the Mutalith model and saves you a few points when compared to the LoC, which could be important with potential uplifts in Skyfire points. Anyone playing with one?

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

You're missing the following possible choices that can be Tzeentch keyworded:

Soul Grinder

Archaon

Galrauch

Gigantic Chaos Spawn

 

The LoC will potentially see more standard use on the table. (And it's a pretty darn awesome kit)

Aha, knew there'd be a list I'd missed, thanks. Had ruled out Archaon due to the points cost at 1500 (I think he's tough to get in at 2000 and probably not to be played by an amateur such as myself) and am not a fan of the Soul Grinder model, he just looks out of place to me. Dragons are cool though and I'll have to revisit the Gigantic Spawn rules, some food for thought. 

LoC is indeed an awesome kit, he's hard to look past, but he's also quite intimidating!

[TheOtherJosh]

So, the Mutalith has the issue that it doesn't mesh with any of the DoT forces well. (He isn't mortal or Daemon)

 

The Soul Grinder would be more in place in a Daemon list.

 

You could see about hunting down an Archaon on Horseback.

 

Thematically, what is the story behind your army?

 

You have a lot of Mortal keywords. And the only units that get the Daemon keyword are your Skyfires and Summoner.

 

The tzaangor (and skyfires) don't get the benefit of a warshrine, but everyone else would.

 

You could go either the route of more tzaangor (for a tzaangor coven and limited synergy with a warshrine) with Tzaangor Enlightened. Or an Alter-Kin Coven with a unit of Kairic Acolytes and that would synergise well with the warshrine.

 

So, is your vision more Disciples of Tzeentch or more Slaves to Darkness?

 

Not that this is a help but:

4 Step Lord of Change Painting for the Rest of Us

https://spikeybits.com/2017/02/4-step-lord-of-change-miniature-painting-for-the-rest-of-us.html

 

Or the Warhammer TV version:

[Tzaangor Management]

The basic idea was to create a mortal Tzeentch army, using the slaves to Darkness to fill in gaps in the battlefield roles missing from the Tzeentch forces. This was the reason for the Marauders, who're very cheap chaff / objective grabbers and a potential reason behind a unit of Chaos Warriors or Knights to use as an anvil. Added to that I like the aesthetic of the Slaves to Darkness, which informed the other part of my choice.

In terms of units to be added, I will certainly be adding some Enlightened and likely some more Skyfires, as well as keeping an eye on the Acolytes and potential points decreases.

As this is my first ever army, I'm not expecting to create the perfect list, but more to build and paint a fun army that could form the basis for a decent list moving forward. Hence attempting to gain a balance of units. Rule of Cool dictates that there should be something large towering over the army and, while no choice will be right for all time (there is a shakeup on the horizon), I'd like to be able to field whatever Behemoth I spend the time painting.

So, for example, with no one rooting for the Manticore with either rider, I'd likely not choose that. Much as I like the model, if I never get to use it, then I'll not feel like it was a good expansion of my small collection. 

[Kramer]

Okay than let me be the only one to argue the manticore. For one, very cool.  set you get two options. The lord and the sorcerer. (You could just stick them one or even magnet them) 

the sorcerers spell gets really amazing with boosts to his roll as you roll the amount of dice equal to his casting score. 

The lord on manticore can be a great hunter and aggressive flanker. He will be more likely in range to dispel then your other wizards. 

Both are good in combat, lord of course a bit better, and their only 240/300.

But mostly I just like the kit  

[Myzyrael]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

Okay than let me be the only one to argue the manticore. For one, very cool.  set you get two options. The lord and the sorcerer. (You could just stick them one or even magnet them) 

the sorcerers spell gets really amazing with boosts to his roll as you roll the amount of dice equal to his casting score. 

The lord on manticore can be a great hunter and aggressive flanker. He will be more likely in range to dispel then your other wizards. 

Both are good in combat, lord of course a bit better, and their only 240/300.

But mostly I just like the kit  

Although I'm looking forward to buying a LoC - that model is awesome - my 2nd priority would also be the Manticore.

While it's not the best fighter out there, I think it is reasonably priced for 240/300. You get a magister for 120, so you can say you get the manticore for 120 too. And the model is quite awesome too.

In my eyes it depends a bit on your army. Is it rather Arcanite heavy or do you incorporate (and plan to do in the future as well) a good amount of Slaves to Darkness? This would - in my eyes - influence how well the centerpiece model fits with your army.

I am using a lot of StD at the moment but plan on switching them for more daemons in the future, so I'm a bit more into the LoC.  

[Arkiham]

use the lord of change and the vortex beast, make it look like his pet 

[kozokus]

You really can't go wrong with the LOC, he is an amazing model both in rules and in sculpture.

That is something that cannot be said that firmly about the rest.

[Opposix]

The Lord of change is definitely the best choice tactically. He will always perform consistently and will add the most value to to list. I feel he is also the most flexible choice with all the options available wargear and item wise. 

Personally I'm going to run the sorcerer Lord on manticore in my list partly because I picked one up for £10 on eBay, also for the look on my opponents face when I roll an inhuman amount of 6's for his spell and do so many mortal wounds the choice will be justified

[Tuluth]

So, I'll just put out the major Tzeentch centerpiece that hasn't been mentioned yet: Magnus the Red. Use him as a Lord of Change or a Greater Lord of Change, and it'll still fit the theme (slightly easier to incorporate any StD models as well, given the human form). Alternately you could also do up a Demon Prince. Not quite as towering as some of the other options, but still a good field, and fits both the Tzeentch and StD motif.

[Tzaangor Management]

9 hours ago, Kramer said:

Okay than let me be the only one to argue the manticore. For one, very cool.  set you get two options. The lord and the sorcerer. (You could just stick them one or even magnet them) 

the sorcerers spell gets really amazing with boosts to his roll as you roll the amount of dice equal to his casting score. 

The lord on manticore can be a great hunter and aggressive flanker. He will be more likely in range to dispel then your other wizards. 

Both are good in combat, lord of course a bit better, and their only 240/300.

But mostly I just like the kit  

Yeah, shame the Lord doesn't have the melee profile, at least in terms of rend, of the Lord on Foot. Magnetising is not something that I've done, so could be good for expanding the hobby breadth.

5 hours ago, Myzyrael said:

Although I'm looking forward to buying a LoC - that model is awesome - my 2nd priority would also be the Manticore.

While it's not the best fighter out there, I think it is reasonably priced for 240/300. You get a magister for 120, so you can say you get the manticore for 120 too. And the model is quite awesome too.

In my eyes it depends a bit on your army. Is it rather Arcanite heavy or do you incorporate (and plan to do in the future as well) a good amount of Slaves to Darkness? This would - in my eyes - influence how well the centerpiece model fits with your army.

I am using a lot of StD at the moment but plan on switching them for more daemons in the future, so I'm a bit more into the LoC.  

Manticore with no rider at 120 would be pretty hard to turn down in truth, not a way I'd looked at it. 

I am slightly waiting on the GHB 2 to inform my direction in terms of the rest of the army. I'm expecting a points reduction for demons and Slaves to Darkness, so will see how that shakes out. Aesthetic-wise I lean towards the StD, but I could be tempted the other way. Will certainly pick up a few more Arcanite units, at least a unit of Enlightened for the Tzaangor Coven and hoping to see the Kairic Acolytes drop a little.

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

use the lord of change and the vortex beast, make it look like his pet 

YES!

3 hours ago, kozokus said:

You really can't go wrong with the LOC, he is an amazing model both in rules and in sculpture.

That is something that cannot be said that firmly about the rest.

That's pretty much where I'm at as well I have to admit. Some swaying arguments in this thread and I might well pick up two, or even three behemoths by the time I get to 2,000 points at this rate!

2 hours ago, Opposix said:

The Lord of change is definitely the best choice tactically. He will always perform consistently and will add the most value to to list. I feel he is also the most flexible choice with all the options available wargear and item wise. 

Personally I'm going to run the sorcerer Lord on manticore in my list partly because I picked one up for £10 on eBay, also for the look on my opponents face when I roll an inhuman amount of 6's for his spell and do so many mortal wounds the choice will be justified

£10.00 is a steal, guess I should spend more time on EBay, would definitely have grabbed him for that myself. I hope to hear stories of rolling 12 6's for the Wind of Chaos!

41 minutes ago, Tuluth said:

So, I'll just put out the major Tzeentch centerpiece that hasn't been mentioned yet: Magnus the Red. Use him as a Lord of Change or a Greater Lord of Change, and it'll still fit the theme (slightly easier to incorporate any StD models as well, given the human form). Alternately you could also do up a Demon Prince. Not quite as towering as some of the other options, but still a good field, and fits both the Tzeentch and StD motif.

I do like the Demon Prince, but feel that he's fulfilling some of the same roll as the Ogroid in being a bit of a combat mage. He can of course fly which is pretty sweet and is perhaps a little more fighty, but probably a later addition to the collection. 

Magnus is cool, but maybe as a second LoC, if I ever get to that point.

Should have done a poll, but it seems like LoC is ahead in the stakes, with the Manticore getting some slightly unexpected love!

[Stevewren]

I loved the lord of change model so much I painted 4!

[Arkiham]

I have one painted spare going if you're interested in buying to save time. brought one and it had issues so brought a replacement and the first turned up so ended up paying for 2

[Soulsmith]

I would suggest converting your own Archaon on horseback, using the Lord Aquilor and parts from the varanguard. Seen them before, including on here, and they look fantastic.

[Myzyrael]

3 hours ago, Tzaangor Management said:

I do like the Demon Prince, but feel that he's fulfilling some of the same roll as the Ogroid in being a bit of a combat mage. He can of course fly which is pretty sweet and is perhaps a little more fighty, but probably a later addition to the collection. 

I got one and try to his him pretty often... but he never fails to disappoint me though. It seems that there is so much out there that easily kills him before he does anything reasonable.  

The same with my Ogroid  He is not fish and not meat... but at least his spell is nice!

[TheOtherJosh]

While I know that I'm personally eyeing the LoC form my army; the Warshrine has a huge benefit with all of the units you have with the Mortal keyword. A D6 of 6 allows you to ignore wounds within a (starting) 9" range and Favor of Tzeentch ability allows you to reroll all failed saves for a selected Mortal Tzeentch unit and saves of 1 if not Tzeentch (mortal) within 16" if the prayer goes off.

 

 

 

[Tzaangor Management]

If I have learned nothing else, I have learned that this is my new favorite phrase:

10 hours ago, Myzyrael said:

He is not fish and not meat... but at least his spell is nice!

I suspect that the spell part is not part of the saying in the everyday vernacular, but it will be in my head. I assume it means beyond classification? That's how I'm likely to slip it into sentences today! 

The Ogroid does have a habit of getting killed early, but when he doesn't, he's really mean and when he does, a fair bit of effort has to have gone towards it, which protects other targets.

9 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

While I know that I'm personally eyeing the LoC form my army; the Warshrine has a huge benefit with all of the units you have with the Mortal keyword. A D6 of 6 allows you to ignore wounds within a (starting) 9" range and Favor of Tzeentch ability allows you to reroll all failed saves for a selected Mortal Tzeentch unit and saves of 1 if not Tzeentch (mortal) within 16" if the prayer goes off.

 

 

 

I think a rules reading session is coming on. Have read them once or twice, but will have a look this weekend, especially if it remains too hot to paint in London... In theory I could get the Manticore and the War Shrine for the price of the LoC... Which is bad economics, but good for the collection! 

No more reasonable arguments that widen the field please, my wallet might not be able to take it ?

[ssharkus]

You forgot about good old Chaos Gargant fella. While he is pretty much mediocre rulewise and very random - still a pretty model. Here s mine mutated giant for example. Sometimes I run him as a Tzeentch Deamon Prince.

Other than that - Loc\Kairos is pretty much a must have for a Tzeentch player. 

[Myzyrael]

5 hours ago, ssharkus said:

You forgot about good old Chaos Gargant fella. While he is pretty much mediocre rulewise and very random - still a pretty model. Here s mine mutated giant for example. Sometimes I run him as a Tzeentch Deamon Prince.

Other than that - Loc\Kairos is pretty much a must have for a Tzeentch player. 

How do you use the gargant and keep Tzeentch allegiance?

Nevertheless - your model is awesome.

[Terry Pike]

22 hours ago, Stevewren said:

I loved the lord of change model so much I painted 4!

Such a hobby gamer Steve!

[Tzaangor Management]

Somehow my phone, or possibly my eyes, didn't display all the responses, so missed a couple.

21 hours ago, Arkiham said:

I have one painted spare going if you're interested in buying to save time. brought one and it had issues so brought a replacement and the first turned up so ended up paying for 2

Thanks for the offer sir, but part of the idea is to test and stretch my fledgling painting technique, but the offer is very much appreciated none the less and I will likely regret it once I ruin the model!

19 hours ago, Soulsmith said:

I would suggest converting your own Archaon on horseback, using the Lord Aquilor and parts from the varanguard. Seen them before, including on here, and they look fantastic.

I remember you mentioning a similar idea on your painting topic. It's a great idea and doing some modelling (have only done the odd weapon swap in terms of 'converting') is on the cards on the future. Am tempted to add some Tzaangor faces to Chaos Warriors as beginner project, which is probably closer to my speed right now.

The Aquillor is awesome though and is almost enough to tempt me to the light side, or to encourage me to tempt it to the dark side!

That's an absolute belter @ssharkus and will certainly look at something like that in the future, particularly once they look at the warscroll and allow them to have marks.

[ssharkus]

On 07.07.2017 at 4:50 PM, Myzyrael said:

How do you use the gargant and keep Tzeentch allegiance?

Nevertheless - your model is awesome.

Thanks. 
Unfortunately you cant do that. I made this dude before Disciples of Tzeentch came out, when I played Tzeentch themed Chaos allegiance army. Thats also why I slapped some wings on it to use him as Tzeentch DP rarely.   We also use him in Hinterlands games for a monster hunt scenarios.