idea i just had

[shadowgra]

the idea i just had is simple, it's related to the shooting power in objective matched play.

now, the shooting that has taken place in aos is clearly op, by a combination of 3 factors. tankiness, mobility and damage. since they're not changing warscroll but only points for matched play, here's a way they can balance it out.

they can create armies that directly counters shooting. i explain it better and give a speculation.

Shooting rarely is based on autohit (warpcannon, tusks and stormfiends aside) and it can be fairly weakened by -1 to hit. indeed the chaos trait that gives -1 to hit in the first turn mitigates a lot of damage dealt, so does the recent mirrorshielded stardrake that can be a pain in the ass for those armies that rely heavily on shooting.

at this point i think that a way to balance it and create a scissor/rock/paper kind of play, can be done in 2 ways, together with a little of point increase:

1) create a faction that resist high to the damage dealt by shooting and that implies a lot of -1 or -2 to hit. and i think that this army is the new nurgle that will come out post death guard. nurgle has always had a really good resilience vs shooting, such as plaguebearers, cunning deceiver (that i think will be implemented as a trait that gives a bubble of -1 to hit on nurgle models inside it), bloab, save from harbinger and so on. i think that with a battalion or 2 and maybe some new and fast unit that can give nurgle the much needed mobility, this army can really deal with shooting and crush them when they reach it. because sooner or later you will get a double turn and these pesky shooters will find themselves in trouble. also some spells from the 2 nurgle lores can help in the sense of tanky/mobility.

also i think it will be a faction with both priests and mages, and i hope so cause it would be a very cool design !

2) empower or create fast hard hitting melee army. probably destruction, ironjawz are really strong in that sense, rampaging towards the enemy really really fast. but also i expect aelves to be that kind of army, and maybe even sylvaneth if they switch to a more horde/melee type of lists, hoping for a bit of point decrease in everything but kurnoth hunters. also even khorne can say something however has the major weakness of being squishy as hell and doing better vs highly armored enemy than squishy targets. 

i think that a combination of 2-3 of these armies can definitely turn down shooting to maybe a support/ high risk high reward kind of play. it's role in the game will be significantly less oppressive at least than now. what do you all think?

[BaldoBeardo]

Tough stuff is already tough - and fast stuff is already fast/too fast in some cases...

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[shadowgra]

14 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Tough stuff is already tough - and fast stuff is already fast/too fast in some cases...

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tho shooting is already too shooty ^^

[BaldoBeardo]

Indeed, but I don't think the solution is a faction-based arms race. For example, creating a faction designed exclusively to close ground quickly is going to hurt everyone, and would actually drive opposition behaviour of mine/maxing attrition or shooting depending on taste.

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[ReverendDangles]

Would it be simpler to give every army access to a second wound/mortal wound save?

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[rokapoke]

31 minutes ago, ReverendDangles said:

Would it be simpler to give every army access to a second wound/mortal wound save?

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I personally think that such secondary "saves" are already overly available. Mortal wound resistance should be rare. Of course, mortal wounds themselves should be rare, too, but the ship has sailed on that already.

[ReynakZhen]

What if they (GW) were to change the shooting rules such that only models with keywords hero,

monster,behemoth, and/or war machine are allowed to shoot into and out of combats? Think that might be a good way to mitigate the impact of shooting somewhat while still allowing shooting to be effective?

[Travis Baumann]

My initial impression on this was that for the few over powered units that shoot, a limitation of numbers would suffice.   This would not be new rules but guidelines for army/list creation.  However GW did away with that possibility when they created an entire army/faction that uses projectile weapons.

I have only heard a few gripes about KO shooters so far but lots and lots of complaints about Skyfires and Kurnoth Hunters.  I never hear about Enlightened or Kurnoths without great bows ever being taken as unit selections.  They could have easily made stipulations about being able to only take so many archers in relation to their melee armed counterparts.  Also max unit size stipulations for archers units.  This does not help the Kunnin Arrer boyz stuff I have heard others talk about though.

Missile weapons make sense from a historic arms escalation point of view.  Obviously, our own world on to 40K shows that.  GW escalated too quickly by jumping on the missile craze in AoS however and should have saved that for their other game or at least made shooting a lot weaker.  It has become much more involved for them at this point.

I was just thinking of that TV show Badlands where they are basically in a futuristic world that has forsaken firearms for a more honorific martial arts cast society but that wouldn't work in AoS because many of the factions are without honor.

 

 

[Myzyrael]

23 hours ago, Travis Baumann said:

I have only heard a few gripes about KO shooters so far but lots and lots of complaints about Skyfires and Kurnoth Hunters.  I never hear about Enlightened or Kurnoths without great bows ever being taken as unit selections.   

 

This is a shame... After reading the ideas for enlightend in the lets chat tzeentch Thread they have become extremely powerful in my army and I hate myself a bit for Building the third box as skyfires. They are vulnerable as hell and people focus them down.

And the hunters with melee weapons are tough enemies in combat.

But shooting SPAM is a Problem indeed.

[Gill]

i love this idea!

[Don Savik]

Why not implement the 40k 8th edition rule of 'characters with 10 or less wounds can't be targeted with magic/shooting unless they're the closest model'? Shooting spam is almost always character ability sniping. 

[shadowgra]

4 hours ago, Don Savik said:

Why not implement the 40k 8th edition rule of 'characters with 10 or less wounds can't be targeted with magic/shooting unless they're the closest model'? Shooting spam is almost always character ability sniping. 

That woud be cool, but buffers woud become unmanageable right?

Imagine a bloodsecretor that u can't snipe 

[Tidings]

I play shooty Wanderers mostly, or a balanced mixed Order army, and I rarely get to shoot at stuff before I'm in combat. In every game I have played against Khorne or Destruction, they get first turn, cross the entire table and charge me. Before I've done inspiring presence or cast Mystic Shield or fired a single shot. So while shooting might be OP, I think that rock paper scissors already exists.