Burf Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, Infeston said: I tend to agree. The new Portents especially give Destruction new possibilities to compete with other armies, because they get very useful tools. You also have to choose which portent you follow at the begin of the battle. And there are always portents that can counter the other portents in a certain way. The portents give a lot of flexbility for everyone. The Black Void is mostly for utility. Other portents allow you to do D3 damage or make units unable to move or to ignore rend values when you make a save. And the strong ones often cost 4-5 points, so you have to decide which one you use. Also each portent can only be used once per turn. There are certain limitations which don't make them to overpowered. I would advise you to read the book and you will understand better in which way they work. Bought it just now and so far all I've discovered is that you can use every single stratagem in every turn in most of the portents with 6 priests or wizards. Changehost has points they couldn't spend if they wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burf Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, ledha said: Yeah, if you play ironjaw, you are screwed against an artillery army with lord-ordinator. However, the artillery army doesn't need the lord ordinator at all to smack you so it doesn't really change anything for you (Ironjaw still suxx hard in any competitive setting). In my local meta, no one play artillery, because the one who did were destroyed again and again, mostly because all of our lists can counter it with ease. Giving them a lord-ordinator won't change anything for them. We'll just snipe everything turn 1/2 and good bye ! As i said, the inclusion of the lord ordinator won't change anything. The army will be overkill against list it was already able to table out, and will still be shutdown by list who could counter it. As for skyfire, yes, i played against them too many time for my sanity back then (the glorious days of the 18 skyfires army !) , but i prefer to face a 12 skyfire unit with +2 to hit than the ****** the Changehost can throw at you or the Fyreslayers. Especially because with the new portent, i have me too some really good tools in my box. Changehosts get EVERY portent in whatever thingy they choose. They get significantly buffed with this book. Tzeentch as a whole made out like a bandit. And the point about the Ordinator is that it's better for the army it's good for than the others are. It doesn't matter that the nighthaunt character is good(which it's not, with 5 wounds at a 4+ and a 9" range command ability make it a suicide bomber at best) or the shaman is good (similar problem, slightly longer range) if they don't add more to YOUR army than the others add to their IDEAL army you're still never going to take them because you risk giving an opponent a disproportionately superior advantage. Not to mention the fact that no one is taking the chaos one regardless. Tl:DR, still never gonna be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, Burf said: Bought it just now and so far all I've discovered is that you can use every single stratagem in every turn in most of the portents with 6 priests or wizards. Changehost has points they couldn't spend if they wanted to. In matched play, you have 3 prophecy point for each 500 army point (priest/wizards and all don't change anything, cf the two scenario made for the matched play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burf Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, ledha said: In matched play, you have 3 prophecy point for each 500 army point, so good luck to use everything. And you must choose only one "domain" for the whole army. Also, you get +1 for every priest or wizard. It specifically calls out no extra's from the harbingers, it never says you don't get the bonuses for priests and Wizards anymore, which means RAW you still do. So yeah, any domain, max stratagems every turn for any tzeentch army with horrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infeston Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 35 minutes ago, Burf said: Also, you get +1 for every priest or wizard. It specifically calls out no extra's from the harbingers, it never says you don't get the bonuses for priests and Wizards anymore, which means RAW you still do. So yeah, any domain, max stratagems every turn for any tzeentch army with horrors. "If you wish for this battle to take place during the Time of Tribulations, you can use the Malign Portents rules, but instead of generating prophecy points randomly at the start of each battle round, players receive an equal number of prophecy points depending on the size of the battle. For every full 500 points worth of units being fielded, players receive 3 prophecy points at the start of each battle round. For example, if the players have chosen to fight a 2500-point Warhost game, they will receive 15 prophecy points at the start of each battle round. Note that HARBINGERS do not generate additional prophecy points" I think this can be very much interpreted as "there is no other way to generate prophecy points instead". It also mentions that players will get an equal number of prophecy points depending on the size of the battle. It wouldn't be equal if wizards and priests also count for generating prophecy points. The sentence with the Harbringer is only an example to show that there is no additional way to generate prophecy points. I think especially the sentence players receive an equal number of prophecy points depending on the size of the battle tells us that there is no additional way to generate prophecy points, because then it wouldn't be equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Burf said: Bought it just now You genuinely bought it? You were so convinced it sucks before so why buy it? It comes across as if you decided not to like it or use it? Was it just to find the flaws, which every add on from GW has, and present them as the full story? Even if the things you say will turn out to be, and for my money they seem assumptions based on rules by your choosing and only with an ultra competitive mindset as the basis, you consistently ignore the foundation of this book even when people point it out: it’s basically page one and the reason when all you’ve said in this thread feels irrelevant to me. If I, or others, want to enjoy it... let them. There is no reason to keep trying to argue that other people are wrong just because you don’t like it. Focus on the things you find fun in this hobby or it isn’t worth the energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infeston Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, Kramer said: This. I have the feeling because most discussions in this forum often focus on competitive play that people forget that the most important rule is that both players finde the match enjoyable. This is the core of the hobby for me. Instead of other competitive games (which we really have enough of) Warhammer's main goal should be an interesting gaming experience regardless of who wins and looses. The whole competitive mindset, the min/max-approach and the strict and pedantic interpretation of rules reduces the overall enjoyment of the game. When I play a match with a friend and the battle is clearly one-sided in my favor, I always offer my opponent to "revive" some of his units or let him have other benefits, so that he has still a chance to fight me. For me winning really isn't that important. I sometimes even have fun loosing a game. Especially if it was really close. These are the best battles for me. I can't enjoy one-sided battles, because I need the emotional rollercoaster between winning and loosing. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURF1 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, Infeston said: This. I have the feeling because most discussions in this forum often focus on competitive play that people forget that the most important rule is that both players finde the match enjoyable. This is the core of the hobby for me. Instead of other competitive games (which we really have enough of) Warhammer's main goal should be an interesting gaming experience regardless of who wins and looses. The whole competitive mindset, the min/max-approach and the strict and pedantic interpretation of rules reduces the overall enjoyment of the game. When I play a match with a friend and the battle is clearly one-sided in my favor, I always offer my opponent to "revive" some of his units or let him have other benefits, so that he has still a chance to fight me. For me winning really isn't that important. I sometimes even have fun loosing a game. Especially if it was really close. These are the best battles for me. I can't enjoy one-sided battles, because I need the emotional rollercoaster between winning and loosing. :-D It was asked how these rules would function in matched play. The answer was 'not well'. That doesn't mean they aren't still fun and unique, it just means they're not for tournaments, which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Why exactly are these rules bad for matched play...? I'm really excited to try using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infeston Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 24 minutes ago, BURF1 said: It was asked how these rules would function in matched play. The answer was 'not well'. That doesn't mean they aren't still fun and unique, it just means they're not for tournaments, which is fine. By whom? I have seen both answers in this thread. There were people who said it is a nice addition to matched play and people who disagreed. But I don't remember seeing a clear answer. Especially because there are matched play battleplans using the malign portents. I don't think GW would create such rules if they weren't supposed to be in matched play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Just now, PJetski said: Why exactly are these rules bad for matched play...? I'm really excited to try using them. I don't think they are bad for matched play at all but they may not suit competitive matched play. Its the same as Firestorm - those allegiances were also allowed for matched play but lots of tournaments banned them. Even then its not cos they are bad but the tournament scene seems to rebel against anything vaguely narrative. Matched play just means you are using equal points - it doesn't mean you are playing competitively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 "The tournament scene" is more than just a handful of people. I have an ITC event coming up that is already stating they will be using the Malign Portent rules. If you are actually a competitive player then shouldn't you should relish the opportunity for all these new ways to customize your army? I don't understand the mentality of rejecting new and interesting content simply because it's new and different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 If people are afraid the portent will break the game, then why the hell did we allowed the fyreslayers to use their allegiance as it is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Envyus Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 If people are affraid of the portents why did 40k allow stratagems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 If people are afraid of portents and the Firestorm abilities, why allow any kind of allegiance abilities? It's all basically the same sort of stuff - fun and fluffy thematic buffs and tricks. They can all be 'broken' if you approach them with the ultra-competitive min-max mindset. Anyway, to answer the OP - yes, I'll be using the MP rules. My club has a an escalation campaign happening at the moment which is going to be folded into the global MP campaign, and I believe the plan is to start using the MP rules from this week. I'm not generally a fan of adding layers upon layers of rules to the game (I'm far from sold on allegiance abilities even) but I see this as a chance to mix things up, and it's a cool feeling knowing that the games we'll be playing are set in such a pivotal time and place in the ongoing story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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