'Competitive' Ironjawz

[Chris Tomlin]

16 hours ago, Lord Biscuit said:

Aye thats just it really, weird fist really brings out both the best and the worst in the weirdman sharman. The best in that he's a godly mortal wounds multiplier, the worst in that the list puts a fat 220 points on a model with a +5 or worse save. While Ironjawz are well positioned to take advantage of his firepower ranged fire by their sheer melee murderness, the sharman needs to be mindful of shooting.

All in all he's a wall breaker, just not entirely sure weirdfist is worth the price of a whole new shaman against some lists.

Yeh...I suspect this is cool, fun and occasionally worthy of yielding some good results, but on the whole a little too costly to be efficient or worthwhile across say, a 5-6 game tournament (we are talking competitive Ironjawz here after all). In a multi list or sideboard event, there may be some mileage in busting it out for the odd game. I would really need to look into it more to see where it's good match ups (opposition and battleplans) really lay.

Perhaps it might be fun to start some threads/discussions on some of the lesser used battalions. We could tackle one a week or something? I'm keen to expand my horizons and gain knowledge/in game experience with the others to be the best Megaboss that I can!! haha

14 hours ago, Gorsk said:

Do the ironjaws have an answer to Khorne wrathmongers?  I am thinking about how to mitigate the wrathmonger's on death ability that forces the killing unit to attach itself or an adjacent unit.   

Oh man...Bloodbound are such a bad match up for Ironjawz. It's horrible. Especially when supplemented with other Chaos units for ranged/magic threats as well. They fight us, we die. We fight them, we die. It's a war of attrition that more often than not we'll be on the losing side of (providing the Bloodbound player is reasonably competent).

In a pure Ironjawz list we have next to no hard counter to Wrathmongers. I hate them with a passion (Khorne would approve). It's not even like I can suggest magic as even if you do take a Weirdnob, you'll be going for Mystic Shield over putting out damage on them most probably. That said, chipping away a couple of Wrathmongers is great if you then plan to charge them. Brutes will delete them, but will die in return...sometimes unfortunately, you will just have to take that though. There's no easy answer or quick fix here (that I've come across anyway). You can't put the cabbage anywhere near them...though it does have the ranged attack.

Sorry, not much help there. If the Bloodbound player is aggressive with them (which they won't always be tbh, they are nice just sat in behind the other units), you will be forced to deal with them and will lose something in the process. Sometimes AoS can be a bit like that, trading units as you attack, you just need to make sure you win the race (players of other games such as MtG may be familiar with this sort of mentality).

Oh, don't forget they give your guys an extra attack as well. Once you've accepted you're likely to lose something in ridding yourself of this pesky unit, you've just gotta ensure you get the job done!

Really interested to hear if anyone has a solid plan for them, other than; ignore them...which can be legit if the Bloodbound player gives you that option!

[TalesOfSigmar]

So for Blood and Glory taking a full Ironjawz army. Planning a list so far of this;

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (520)
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Units
Orruk Brutes x 10 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 2000/2000

It gives me a decent amount of Heroes for 3 Places of Power and then enough bodies/wounds per unit for the other objective games.

Anything people would recommend switching around? I'm having the 10-Man Brute unit equipped with the Gore-Hackas for the reach and the 5-Man unit will have the Two Brute Choppas.

Cheers,

Chalmers
 

[Chris Tomlin]

Yo @TalesOfSigmar,

Pretty much the list I've been doing ok with at Tournaments with a couple of twists;

- Weirdnob over Ardnob. I'd stick with my fighty character here, still consider the Shaman overpointed. Also this makes my list 1980, meaning I get Triumphs sometimes (when I remember!)

- 10 Ardboyz over 3 Gore-gruntas. Much better choice on your part here from a purely competitive standpoint. This will do you well I think.

- 10 Ardboyz over 5 Brutes. Considering you already have 20 Ardboyz, I think I still prefer the 2nd unit of 5 Brutes tbh. Each to their own on this one though. You have multiples of both already so are covering the important bases, I can see this one going either way.

So yeh, in all, its an alright list and you probably do ok with it (play & match up dependant obv!). I like that you've got so many bodies in the list, that's a strong move IMO. Interested to hear how you find the Cabbage. I love mine, but I will be leaving it at home (well, in a second list or sideboard looking pretty!) going forward I suspect.

[N_Watson]

@TalesOfSigmar Like the list. To echo what Chris says, looks solid. I also prefer the extra 5 brutes over 10 ardboys when you already have 20, but haven't tried with 30 before. 30 might be better than 20. 

I actually like taking the shaman I think. Not 100% on it yet. I get slagged off at the store I play at because I'm always saying how he is over pointed and should be better etc. But then he always pulls off stuff I couldn't do without him. Ironjawz not having any ranged can be a hindrance and he can sometimes reduce that. Plus my black orc big boss always falls short of the mark anyway. I'd maybe consider replacing him for a 2nd warchanter.

@Chris Tomlin

Have you had any test games yet without the cabbage? Just curious if it is still theory or you have done more with the extra 10 brutes yet. 

[TalesOfSigmar]

@Chris Tomlin Cheers, for the advice.

Weirdnob over Ardnob was mainly down to having the model painted, plus it's a (albiet expensive) Mystic Shield for either the Warboss or Cabbage.

10 Ardboyz over Goregruntas, this was purely down to being a little underwhelmed by the Gore Grunta rules. The models look absolutely balling but you then read the rules and it's a bit meh. Plus the extra numbers that are pretty survivable for objectives is definitely a bonus. I learnt that at Facehammer trying to hold objectives with 20 measily Moonclan Grots.

Another 10 Ardboyz over Brutes again this was down to more numbers for Objectives. The extra wounds per model on the Brutes is enticing but having double the amount of models holding down objectives is what swung it for me.

I loved running the Cabbage at Facehammer, granted one mission he was killed by Retributors first turn. But the others he did some pretty decent damage and is a great distraction piece for the rest of the army to do their thing. My first game he limped around on one wound, took off a unit of Chaos Warriors and then took 7 wounds off Bloab before finally dying. I did consider another Battlebrew on it as I ran at Facehammer but having the Talisman on it and the save against Mortal Wounds seems like the better option.

It is a big points sink though, I mean you could get another two units of Brutes and another Warboss at that cost. But it's such an awesome model it's hard not to run it!

[Chris Tomlin]

1 minute ago, N_Watson said:

I'd maybe consider replacing him for a 2nd warchanter.

If I'm honest, I have grown a little frustrated with my Ardnob (don't quote that out of context!!) in some games recently. I have been using the Slaughter-choppa which is prone to dice spikes being only 3 attacks. I'm gonna try him out with the Deff Choppas (unless playing Seraphon) and will also consider him as my general in units with 2x 10 Brutes. But yeh, a second Warchanter is a very very solid choice over the Weirdnob IMO.

4 minutes ago, N_Watson said:

Have you had any test games yet without the cabbage? Just curious if it is still theory or you have done more with the extra 10 brutes yet. 

Nope, just theory at present. Haven't had any games since the Periscope one with @Forestreveries and they weren't assembled at that time. The problem is when I'm painting up new stuff I lose out on the opportunity to play, this has been a real issue over the last few months. Hoping for a game before Clash next weekend, otherwise I'll come back with solid in-game experience then and let you know how it works. I am concerned there will be diminishing returns with the 2nd unit of 10 (with Inspiring Presence). It's why I'm considering the Ardnob for general. We'll see. I'm certainly exciting to finally be playing 2 Warchanters though!

[Chris Tomlin]

27 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

Weirdnob over Ardnob was mainly down to having the model painted, plus it's a (albiet expensive) Mystic Shield for either the Warboss or Cabbage.

This is kinda my problem with him. Everyone says he is an expensive Mystic Shield, which he is...but how many times a game does he fail to cast? Mystic Shield is by no means a guaranteed thing. If it was, I'd pay 120pts all day long. Just amplifies why the Warchanter is so good!

27 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

10 Ardboyz over Goregruntas, this was purely down to being a little underwhelmed by the Gore Grunta rules. The models look absolutely balling but you then read the rules and it's a bit meh. Plus the extra numbers that are pretty survivable for objectives is definitely a bonus. I learnt that at Facehammer trying to hold objectives with 20 measily Moonclan Grots.

"a bit meh" might be a bit of an understatement, but yeh I agree with you here. As I have 9 Gore-grunta models I've decided to go "Pig Heavy" for the lolz in the escalation campaign we have just started. At 600pts I put a Warchanter on 3 Gruntas (for the first time ever) and it was surprisingly good ..well, ok! Haha

27 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

Another 10 Ardboyz over Brutes again this was down to more numbers for Objectives. The extra wounds per model on the Brutes is enticing but having double the amount of models holding down objectives is what swung it for me.

Yup, it's definitely not a bad call at all mate and the more I think about it, it is probably better tbh. Need to get more Ardboyz assembled/painted myself.

27 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

I loved running the Cabbage at Facehammer, granted one mission he was killed by Retributors first turn. But the others he did some pretty decent damage and is a great distraction piece for the rest of the army to do their thing. My first game he limped around on one wound, took off a unit of Chaos Warriors and then took 7 wounds off Bloab before finally dying. I did consider another Battlebrew on it as I ran at Facehammer but having the Talisman on it and the save against Mortal Wounds seems like the better option.

It is a big points sink though, I mean you could get another two units of Brutes and another Warboss at that cost. But it's such an awesome model it's hard not to run it!

He is a great distraction, but he's over a quarter of the army. Other factions can achieve similar for far less!! He is potentially hugely destructive and game winning, no doubt. He's also loads of fun tbh and looks awesome. I'm certainly not adverse to seeing them in lists.

Do you have to list your Artefacts on the army roster at B&G then? That's a shame. I like having the option to switch between Battle Brew and the Talisman on him, depending on the opposition.

As I mentioned above, my thoughts on Cabbageless lists(!) are all in theory at present, so I'll report back when I can back it up either way. I may find you need him for some of the very reasons you stated. Also, I agree 100%; it is an awesome model and hard not to use!!

[Nico]

Quote

I loved running the Cabbage at Facehammer, granted one mission he was killed by Retributors first turn. But the others he did some pretty decent damage and is a great distraction piece for the rest of the army to do their thing. My first game he limped around on one wound, took off a unit of Chaos Warriors and then took 7 wounds off Bloab before finally dying. I did consider another Battlebrew on it as I ran at Facehammer but having the Talisman on it and the save against Mortal Wounds seems like the better option.

The fact that the damage output declines so little (and can be mitigated by double downing Battle Brew) as it takes damage is a major plus. This is even more the case with Gordrakk.

Quote

I learnt that at Facehammer trying to hold objectives with 20 measily Moonclan Grots.

Don't make me laugh. These guys are far more survivable than they deserve to be (they should be 140 points not 120). Bravery 6 - same as Liberators versus shooting. 4+ save versus shooting. -1 to hit for pretty much the whole unit. My rather unbuffed Ghouls failed to clear out even the 6+ save bow variants in a game yesterday.

[Berdysz]

Hi everyone. My first posting here. I did read (pretty much) the whole of "'Competitive' Ironjawz" link though. Great stuff here!

I have a question, well 2 actually. First one is about "Battle Brew". If I give it to my Maw-crusha Boss will the +1/2 bonus apply to boss and his monster?

The wording says" model", so i would assume boss and his "vegetable" since they are one model, right?

 

Other question is about very odd interpretation of Gordrakk rule (smaller version as well). At least I think it is an odd interpretation. My idea was that "Strength from victory" gives me more wounds, meaning if I had 8 and smashed a Hero I get +1 wound so I have 9 left afterwards. But the rule says "add 1 to their wound characteristic...". Because of that I was challenged that I can add 1 wound to overall characteristic, meaning Godrakk now have 15 wounds in total, but his current state of 8 wound does not change.

That would make the whole "strength from victory" pretty useless...

Any clarification/thoughts on those?   

[N_Watson]

2 minutes ago, Berdysz said:

 

Other question is about very odd interpretation of Gordrakk rule (smaller version as well). At least I think it is an odd interpretation. My idea was that "Strength from victory" gives me more wounds, meaning if I had 8 and smashed a Hero I get +1 wound so I have 9 left afterwards. But the rule says "add 1 to their wound characteristic...". Because of that I was challenged that I can add 1 wound to overall characteristic, meaning Godrakk now have 15 wounds in total, but his current state of 8 wound does not change.

That would make the whole "strength from victory" pretty useless...

Any clarification/thoughts on those?   

If you have a characteristic of 14, and have taken 7 wounds, you have 7 left. 

If you kill a hero, you get a characteristic of 15. 

Still have taken 7 wounds, so you have 8 left 

And for the battle brew, consensus is that if affects the enter model, including mount. There is examples of where it specifically states rider and this isn't one of them.

Hope this helps! 

[Chris Tomlin]

Firstly, welcome to the forums @Berdysz,

You've made a good start by having a good read through this thread. Lots of useful information in here for new and experienced Megabosses alike! 

58 minutes ago, Berdysz said:

First one is about "Battle Brew". If I give it to my Maw-crusha Boss will the +1/2 bonus apply to boss and his monster?

The wording says" model", so i would assume boss and his "vegetable" since they are one model, right?

Yes you are spot on here mate and this is very clear in the rules, it's not a matter of consensus or opinion. Battle Brew grants the bonus to the model, which includes the Cabbage's shooting and melee attacks (as they are part of the model). There are very few things in AoS which differentiate elements on a model; some of the other Alliance Artefacts in the GH stipulate this.

@N_Watson has covered off the additional wounds nicely. It's worthwhile as it takes longer for you to die, but the Cabbages move/attacks will still be effected negatively by the wound brackets as listed.

[Berdysz]

Thanks @N_Watson and @Chris Tomlin.

No sure if I am all that new to these forums... I did sign up back in May, I even did some posting on converting RatOgres. Afterwards, someway, somehow I forgot all about it...

Anyways, I have a small Tournament comming so I figured I ll do some reading, and obviously ended up here. Hope to stay this time

 

[LortOlle]

3 hours ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

So for Blood and Glory taking a full Ironjawz army. Planning a list so far of this;

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (520)
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Units
Orruk Brutes x 10 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 2000/2000

It gives me a decent amount of Heroes for 3 Places of Power and then enough bodies/wounds per unit for the other objective games.

Anything people would recommend switching around? I'm having the 10-Man Brute unit equipped with the Gore-Hackas for the reach and the 5-Man unit will have the Two Brute Choppas.

Cheers,

Chalmers
 

This is what I will play once I get the third unit of brutes painted. 

Atm I'm playing 40 ardboys in two units as I'm a ardboy fanboy but that number is a bit hard to get into combat so 30 is enough.

Once I get some more brutes I'll probably downgrade the maw-krusha to another megaboss on foot and two more units of brutes or possibly gore-gruntas to flank with. I don't really think the maw-krusha can outperform two units + a megaboss on foot. If there is enough terrain though it might be hard to fit all those foot soldiers and the krusha could make it's points back.

[Sangfroid]

I find the defence against Stormcast is number of wounds and put much superior mobility, yes they can dictate where they initially fight but weather that storm (excuse the pun) and we can outmanoeuvre them to objectives or even better get into their more static units (judicators & heroes) to force them to deploy more defensively. 

the key as has been said before is sufficient Ardboyz (or goregruntas) to screen your army so that you can then pick your fights with Brutes, megabosses and mawcrushas the stormcast will probably delete a unit or two of Ardboyz but then your countercharge should remove the paladins and get you into or close to the judicators. 

I think Stormcast is generally a good match up for Ironjawz

[Dez]

I've played most of my games without the Mawkrusha, I like having the extra boots on the ground. The Cabbage is just too hot a target, combine that with my inability to play it correctly and it hasn't done well

I'm really curious to try units of 30 Ardboyz, I have SO many of them...

[Gorsk]

Thanks for the thoughts on fighting wrathmongers.  Maybe they are a good target for a turn one gore-grunta charge, if you can get to them quickly enough.  Also assuming 3 gore-gruntas could roll them.

[Berdysz]

Going forward. Like I said there is a tournament comming (next weekend) in my neighborhood for 1500 pts GH. To be honest my list is based on what i have ready right now. I am a person who plays with painted (or almoust painted...) staff only. So here it is:

Megaboss on Maw-Crusha ( Cabbage is great nick for him, but I also call him "flying gorilla" )

Warchanter

Wierdnob Shaman

5x brutes (2 choppas, gore-choppa, claw and brute smasha)

5x brutes (gore-hackas, gore-choppa, boss choppa)

10 x ardboyz (not sure-> some mix...)

3x Gore Gruntas (pig iron choppas)

Ironfist Battalion

I have a few dilemmas though. After some "dry dock" testing I wanted to try out "Weirdfist". Seems pretty solid (if you do not attempt "foot"), but in order to do that I would have to drop Warchanter. I dont think I am prepared to do that...

Shaman, in this configuration for being "shield caster" seems pretty expensive. Without "Weirdfist" his ability to distribute pain seems much diminished. Maybe I should take this "ArdNob" (BoBB)? I was rather fond of him before "Ironjawz" times. I am happy to take any suggestions...

[Dez]

If you have it, take the Ardnob. The Weirdnob consistently under performs for me, and that's only casting Mystic Shield. The problem with the Weirdnob is he is expensive points wise, fairly flimsy, only gets one spell a phase, has high casting costs for Ironjawz spells, and the worst is there is way too much random chance going on that the risk is not worth any reward in competitive play. His positives is he can dish out some hurt in melee and the model is great.

[Nico]

The significant thing about Gordrakk is that he doesn't climb back up the damage chart - as it is damage taken, not wounds remaining.

Doesn't he start on 15 wounds.

The other issue is that (1) all attacks are simultaneous for one attacking unit (you have to allocate where all the attacks go before rolling any dice; and you don't remove any models until all that unit's attacks are done - so you don't kill 2 models and then find that the target unit is suddenly out of range of the jaw attacks etc..); and (2) the player who owns the model allocates the damage, which arguably includes the order of the damage from different simultaneous attacks. Previously, because of (2) I've played Dorghar/Archaon on the basis that if the heads contributed to a kill (did at least one wound that combat phase), then Archaon gets the heads buff (regen, learns a spell etc.).

Clearly the answer cannot be to let the person whose unit it is willfully mis-allocate the damage so that the heads don't do the last wound.

Similarly forcing the Archaon player to try to guess which weapon will notionally take off the last wound is also daft; and as he could elect to do one attack at a time it becomes a time sink as well - "I'll do one Slayer of Kings attack to take off 3 wounds, oh that missed - I'll do another one - now I'll do a tail attack to take off the next wound, oh that didn't wound so I'll do another one, ok now I'll do the heads since he's on one wound".

Applying the same logic to Gordrakk I would probably add that whichever of Kunnin or Smasha did more wounds in contribution to the kill of the hero would gain the buff (definitely not both weapons) or you could dice off between them if preferred. That seems fair and doesn't waste time. Thoughts on this fluffy but rather impractical rule?   

[Berdysz]

26 minutes ago, Dez said:

If you have it, take the Ardnob. The Weirdnob consistently under performs for me, and that's only casting Mystic Shield. The problem with the Weirdnob is he is expensive points wise, fairly flimsy, only gets one spell a phase, has high casting costs for Ironjawz spells, and the worst is there is way too much random chance going on that the risk is not worth any reward in competitive play. His positives is he can dish out some hurt in melee and the model is great.

I have two candidates for a role of Ardnob, miniature wise: Borgut Facebeater & Grumlok (and gazbag). Borgut is painted so I only need to re-base him. He is metal so no probs here.

I think of adding shield for Grumlok and use him that way->but need to paint him first.

[Lord Biscuit]

Question; do 'ardnobs do 100 points of work? Much as I feel a Sharman could under preform, not entirely convinced on the virtue of the 'ardnob

[N_Watson]

1 minute ago, Lord Biscuit said:

Question; do 'ardnobs do 100 points of work? Much as I feel a Sharman could under preform, not entirely convinced on the virtue of the 'ardnob

They can definitely under perform. Same as anything can. With either weapon option, they can get work done. The Deff Choppa is probably the most susceptible to fluffing, but it can kill stuff for sure. One bonus is it drops 20 points from your list over your shaman and wont kill your own boys. 
Shaman can keep your your brutes alive easier and kill off pesky models to free up your heavy hitters to move.

Just depends on what you want more. I doubt that in 100 games either option would perform better in a majority.   Best to try both and see what works for you. 

In my own experience, I get more from the shaman, but that could be a play style thing.

[Bjarni St.]

13 hours ago, Nico said:

The other issue is that (1) all attacks are simultaneous for one attacking unit (you have to allocate where all the attacks go before rolling any dice; and you don't remove any models until all that unit's attacks are done - so you don't kill 2 models and then find that the target unit is suddenly out of range of the jaw attacks etc..

I ran into the same thing you did playing Archaon. Initially I (wrongly) assumed I allocated the weapons as I went - after I'd concluded attacking with the last weapon. Getting those head attacks to "last-hit" is pretty awful. My solution to the rules problem (as opposed to the problem of Archaon being clunky as hell) was to allocate all attacks and then execute them one by one. If the heads' attacks got a killing blow when it was their turn to be rolled their rule triggers. I really wish I had something more concrete to base that on than it feeling more or less like it makes sense because it doesn't seem that clear (to me anyhow) from the rules as laid out.

[Chris Tomlin]

19 hours ago, Gorsk said:

Thanks for the thoughts on fighting wrathmongers.  Maybe they are a good target for a turn one gore-grunta charge, if you can get to them quickly enough.  Also assuming 3 gore-gruntas could roll them.

Gore-gruntas are a decent shout as they are just as unlikely to hurt themselves as they are to hurt the enemy hahaha!!

Unfortunately, 3 Gore-gruntas are unlikely to be able to do the business on a unit of Wrathmongers IMO, though they could soften them up for sure. Not a bad plan, as like I say they don't do too much damage back on themselves!

[Zedek]

hey folks another mega boss here. all the way from NZ. Really enjoyed reading this thread tonight while trying to come up with a list for an upcoming tournament next month. in regards to the strength from victory the maw crushas do get better as they heal as per the main rules faq 

Q: If a monster heals wounds, does it still count as having taken those wounds for the purpose of making its attacks and abilities weaker? A: No. You use the line that corresponds to the monster’s current number of wounds, so a monster will get better if it can heal wounds.

as for the fore mentioned tournament is 2500 points 4 rounds. Here is the list i have in mind

Morbash on ironbelly (Megaboss on Mawcrusha) name comes from shrugging off a several cannon balls in my last tournament

megaboss 

warchanter 

Zedek - Weirdnob shaman 

gorefist 

3x 3 gore gruntas

ironfist

20 ard boys 

10 brutes - gore hackas

5 brutes - 2 brute choppas  

total points 2480. 

plan is tried and tested hammer and anvil. maw crusha supports the gorefist on which ever flank is weaker of my opponents and the rest of the force becomes the anvil. i know its not the hardest of anvils but i feel there are enough bodies to do the job.