Richelieu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 56 minutes ago, Kaleun said: Khailebron starts being more and more appealing... I actually think khailebron is the best temple at 1k for the reasons stated above. Having one group (your block of witches plus cauldron) that can win a decisive combat while everything else you have can easily move to any poorly defended objective is powerful at 1k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURF1 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 10 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: They only way I see lifetakers being good is in Hag narr and getting a turn 3 charge (turn 2 with the sacrament of blood prayer) and with mind razor cast + cataclysm of slaughter on them. So they need more buffs that the Heartrenders. As Dante said, Heartrenders are a better tactical tool and they are solely independent. They don't need buffs they just do there own thing. I've been running 4 units of 5 so far and they have been doing work. Haven't lost with the daughters yet. *dive hawkmen! Diveeeeeee!!* each one has a different head to make them unique amongst each other Shadowhammer compact is the best list for lifetakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURF1 Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Double Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 12 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: They only way I see lifetakers being good is in Hag narr and getting a turn 3 charge (turn 2 with the sacrament of blood prayer) and with mind razor cast + cataclysm of slaughter on them. So they need more buffs that the Heartrenders. Your mistake is in comparing them in the first place. One is a utility unit, the other is a situational surgical melee damage unit. Shadowhammer Compact and Cauldron Guard are both very viable and both make Lifetakers quite useful. Lifetakers should be compared against Witches, SoS and Blood Sisters, while Heartrenders should be compared against Blood Stalkers and Doomfire Warlocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Richelieu said: Your mistake is in comparing them in the first place. One is a utility unit, the other is a situational surgical melee damage unit. Shadowhammer Compact and Cauldron Guard are both very viable and both make Lifetakers quite useful. Lifetakers should be compared against Witches, SoS and Blood Sisters, while Heartrenders should be compared against Blood Stalkers and Doomfire Warlocks. Oh it wasn't a mistake I've play tested them quite a bit and find them lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burf Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: Oh it wasn't a mistake I've play tested them quite a bit and find them lacking. Oh have you now? How did 20 in shadow hammer compact do against fyreslayers? Tzeentch? Stormcasts? Kharadron? What about seraphon or LoN or Nurgle? What about a unit of ten? What about 40 in Cauldron guard? Or did you mean to say 'I played like 2 games with them and they're not for me.'? There is a strong case for heartrenders being the superior option in general but there are always going to be lists and matchups where lifetakers are more useful. The obvious example is heartrenders being doggak compared to lifetakers in shadowhammer(gets nothing out of the double move, gets nothing out of double shoot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 On 3/17/2018 at 1:18 PM, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: I created more things!!! hope you like them, and maybe they will inspire you Aswell! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this was a good idea. I didn't want my hags or slaughter queens to feel out of place in an all snake army. So...consider your idea thoroughly copied! How well did the torsos fit into the snake bodies? Or was it mainly strategic trimming and hiding the join with the waist armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 7 hours ago, Burf said: Oh have you now? How did 20 in shadow hammer compact do against fyreslayers? Tzeentch? Stormcasts? Kharadron? What about seraphon or LoN or Nurgle? What about a unit of ten? What about 40 in Cauldron guard? Or did you mean to say 'I played like 2 games with them and they're not for me.'? There is a strong case for heartrenders being the superior option in general but there are always going to be lists and matchups where lifetakers are more useful. The obvious example is heartrenders being doggak compared to lifetakers in shadowhammer(gets nothing out of the double move, gets nothing out of double shoot). I've had about 17 games with them so far vs maggotkin, disciples of Tzeentch, beastclaws, bonesplitterz, ironjaws, nighthaunt, Seraphon, stormcast, legion of sacrament, kharadons and flesh eater courts.... So try not to make assumptions about how many times I've been play testing them burf I'm at Warhammer world right now with 12 guys from our group so I will be getting a ****** tonne more games with them. Your play style maybe different but for me I have no use for them. There a better things to spend pts on. If you want to use them go ahead! If you love them tell people your experience. For me I prefer Heartrenders, they suit my guerilla style warfare I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 @Ekrund Oath Splitters <thumbs up> I also played like 10 very comeptitive games with DoK and I don't see much use of Lifetakers, they could be good in some Shadowhammer Compact Battalion (but with actual rules and meta I don't see that Battalion working against very good players at all - it will get wrecked more often then not by DoT, Clown-Car, Seraphon to name few) but they are not so good as Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter, Blood Sisters. So far the greatest success I had when I kept my units close to Cauldron, Morathi, Hags even Warlocks who could cast a mystic shield. Lifetakers are not that easy to buff and smart player will screen himself good enough against melee Alpha strike list (that's why such list are rare in meta)sure he needs to screen and it takes his mobility but it's not like he will screen only against DoK, it's part of their playbook to screen. I just don't see alpha strike lists that can't go first in majority of important games to be reliable enough. Lifetakers could be good with CauldronGuard and Ganeth Temple (but will anybody use it instead of HaggNar/Kheilbron?) but they are 80 pts for 5 wounds of melee unit that is killed easily and to be productive won't usually benefit from Cauldron/mystic shield/HaggNar stuff. Maybe if they costed like 60 they would be quite good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sennyo Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 i dont think ist been mention but FAQ updated to include daughters https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/age_of_sigmar_order_en-2.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 So the only notable thing is that after transformation Morathi stays on the vortex Of course they FAQ that she can be general in temples but doesn't get any command traits and clarification on wounds allocation and Heart of Khaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, DantePQ said: So the only notable thing is that after transformation Morathi stays on the vortex Of course they FAQ that she can be general in temples but doesn't get any command traits and clarification on wounds allocation and Heart of Khaine. They also reiterated that Blood Stalkers only inflict mortal wounds in the shooting phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Yep but it was pretty clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Temple nest before modifiers is another notable thing. A Hag Naggar buffed blood sisters unit from a temple nest can be a complete PITA, and it actually hurts a lot of armies with high attack output a lot (ie skellies). Also clarified the allocation. Also lol at the balewind vortex morathi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Keldaur said: Temple nest before modifiers is another notable thing. A Hag Naggar buffed blood sisters unit from a temple nest can be a complete PITA, and it actually hurts a lot of armies with high attack output a lot (ie skellies). Also clarified the allocation. Also lol at the balewind vortex morathi. The temple nest is pretty much the only question I had. Glad they erratad it. The wound allocation thing isn't really a clarification, more like they made up something new (no rules existed that would have indicated a wound that has been negated doesn't count as having been allocated). That's fine though, all that matters is that there is now an unambiguous way to resolve the interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Snake ladies for dayssss. Good day out! Blood sisters are quite fragile but pack a punch. Heartrenders as usual were amazing! Loving them so far. Had a cheeky doubles with my mates African inspired daughters too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Hmmm so Morathi became a lot more vulnerable... A shame as she can now be sniped by armies that go for the double turn if you don't transform her (so I guess: transform her against those)... Though maybe it was excessive in a Hagg Nar list with Blessing of Khaine on her... I guess time will tell if she's still worth it, probably she will, but I think I'm not going to initially include her in my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecktron Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Richelieu said: The temple nest is pretty much the only question I had. Glad they erratad it. The wound allocation thing isn't really a clarification, more like they made up something new (no rules existed that would have indicated a wound that has been negated doesn't count as having been allocated). That's fine though, all that matters is that there is now an unambiguous way to resolve the interaction. I think the other way was pretty nitpicky. Rule as Intended was that Morathi can't suffer more than 3 wounds per turn. Otherwise this would have resulted in a unnecessary differentiation between wounds saved by her armor save and wounds saved by the DoK save after a save. But anyway, I like that GW is so quick to publish FAQs now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMoose Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: Snake ladies for dayssss. Good day out! Those conversions look great when ranked up next to the Blood Sisters! The Bloodwrack matching better with them in particular is what I like about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said: Snake ladies for dayssss. Good day out! That top table is amazing. Now if I can just convince my company to send me to the Leicester office for a week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURF1 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 4 hours ago, The Traitor said: Hmmm so Morathi became a lot more vulnerable... A shame as she can now be sniped by armies that go for the double turn if you don't transform her (so I guess: transform her against those)... Though maybe it was excessive in a Hagg Nar list with Blessing of Khaine on her... I guess time will tell if she's still worth it, probably she will, but I think I'm not going to initially include her in my list. I think it's actually more fair to say she's 'not as totally invulnerable' now. In a haggnar list with Blessing of Khaine she used to only take 1 wound per turn on average and even doing that wound would take the equivalent of two units of Kurnoths/Skyfires and something like 3/4 units of longstrikes(assuming basic defense buffs). When you need her own points in some of the most efficient shooting units in the game to reliably do the ONLY wound per turn she can take, that's a bit much. From what I've seen the vast majority of people playtesting her have been using the more conservative version of the rule and she's still performed extremely well. She never really needed to rely on this particular rules glitch to be good. And still, any army that goes for a snipe on the double turn is trying to get through what would almost definitely be a 2+ save, with either a 5++rerolling with -1 to hit or a 6++ with -2 to hit. If they tried magic they'd have to get through her denials, the cauldrons denials, any bloodwrack/doomfire denials, AND her 5++ rerolling while simultaneously putting themselves in counter attack range for the rest of the army. And if either turn they fail to do 3 total wounds to her, they've failed their gambit and have put themselves into a position where they have devoted so many resources into killing Morathi, that the rest of your army has gone almost completely unmolested and can roflstomp their overextended units. OH and don't forget that if they go for it that hard and DON'T get the double turn, they lose. They lose right there. Basically, sniping her oracle form will be very rare outside of some very specific gimmick (assuming you don't plonk her down in the middle of the table, unbuffed, like a numpty) lists like the nurgle rain-dance thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 @BURF1 yeah I guess you're right, as I mentioned probably she will still be worth it and her being sniped in a double turn will be rare, specially considering in such scenario you would get the first turn to get all your buffs and transform her to monster form. Still won't be including her in my initial list, she's a lot of points to commit to and DoK have so many other tools I want to include! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekrund Oath Splitters Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 11 hours ago, DJMoose said: Those conversions look great when ranked up next to the Blood Sisters! The Bloodwrack matching better with them in particular is what I like about this. 8 hours ago, Richelieu said: That top table is amazing. Now if I can just convince my company to send me to the Leicester office for a week... Thanks guys!! Yeah I have the Medusa in her standard form and she just doesn't fit in with the melusai... so I made that one to keep the theme and same with the two Hag queens. The slaughter queen model was the hardest to model onto the melusai body.... I'm now working on making my avatar of khaine into a serpent aswell! No idea how though.... Richelieu yeah you should defiantly go down there! We had 6 tables booked, literally had the whole hall to ourselves. My mates temple nest list went undefeated and so did my own spin on a serpent and harpy list. Toughest list I fought yesterday was nighthaunt. With the king of shrouds those spirit hosts were just cleaning house... but thanks to Heartrenders I was getting so many pts from battle for the pass whilst the mainline of blood sisters held against the tide of spirit hosts and cairn wraiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaMage Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Damn, I was gonna hold off getting more melusai for the time being, but now I want to make a temple nest, which means I need two more squads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURF1 Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 16 hours ago, The Traitor said: @BURF1 yeah I guess you're right, as I mentioned probably she will still be worth it and her being sniped in a double turn will be rare, specially considering in such scenario you would get the first turn to get all your buffs and transform her to monster form. Still won't be including her in my initial list, she's a lot of points to commit to and DoK have so many other tools I want to include! Perfectly reasonable. One of my favorite things about this army is that every single thing has a place and a purpose. The weakest unit overall is Stalkers and you can still include those in plenty of lists. This is one of the best designed armies in the game in my opinion simply on the basis of having such a breadth of usable options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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