Mcthew

As you say it's odd. Either this is badly worded or the choice to run mixed units is wrong. They're incompatible rules. FAQ here we come! (Seriously, GW are the Apple of tabletop games! So many bugs and so many updates, but the stuff sure is pretty!)

Didn't know that. Fair point.

True - its never been needed before. But you're mixing save abilities here by saying you have half a unit that can save mortal wounds and half that don't. But you can pick which models your opponent can spell cast against? Sorry, but if someone tried that on me I'd think they were cheating.

Simple. If, for example, you run with 10 models in 2 ranks with the front rank assembled with a pair of weapons and the second rank with halberds and runrshields, the front rank should absorb the wounds first, and definitely against mortal wound damage (as the front rank don't have runeshields). I wouldn't play against someone who did anything differently.

Was going to disagree, but looking at all other warscrolls, you know I think you're right, or rather the rules writing is poor (which is a very real possibility). Warscrolls usually state that the 'unit is armed with one of the following weapon combinations' if only one can be used rather than any combination per model. The only problem is how this works in play. Often in our games you choose which of your models can be slain. But having this dynamic means the opponent should choose, due to having a mixed unit (and you can forget proxies).

It would be business suicide to can AoS or do anything to undermine its success. Personally I'm expecting WFB old rules as a new edition but with tweaks to improve it, otherwise it risks more fury from Oldhammer players. Models wise I reckon it will be square bases or movement trays for round bases. But do I honestly care? Well, I'll buy a book for nostalgia, but I doubt I'll invest anything else in it. As an old WFB gamer I can honestly say that AoS is a much better game system even if the lore isnt as good as Oldhammer (not yet anyway, but time will tell!). I've played more AoS games in 2 years than I played WFB in 5, and that's down to the game not the people playing it (it was more like gaming attrition, like playing through a quagmire; AoS is as they say, smooth and cinematic).

Compared to some hobbies, this is one of the cheaper options, judging by the costs of say playing golf, mountain biking, photography etc. Although unlike some of those distractons, this hobby wont do anything for your fitness levels! For value, comparing ours with those hobbies is like comparing apples with potatoes (not even pears, to be honest). The fairest comparison is with other entertainment hobbies such as console gaming: We bought an Xbox One S last Christmas for our kids for the same price as 3 start collecting sets. For that you got a console and one game. That's one game that you'd soon get bored of (they did). So already AoS looks better value. But then, what you don't realise is that you get all this free stuff when you buy a console. You get access to free TV content, movies, music, the internet, and the best games on the Xbox are free to play. On average we use the Xbox between 10-15 hours a week, to watch films, TV and play games. Compare that to AoS, where we spend about 5 hours a week on average, and that outlay on the Xbox is already looking like better value for money. Particularly if you take into account we've spent in the region of £500 so far this year on AoS, compared to £50 on games for the Xbox. It's that casual nature that makes AoS poor value. If you spend 15+ hours a week on our hobby then it's pretty good value, but that depends on availability of local gaming groups, your love of painting miniatures, the love of the lore etc. The more time you invest the more the prices seem irrelevant. The casual gamer doesn't or can't invest that time however, and so the price of the hobby is inflated. So it's hard to get others to buy into this hobby. Parents will look at AoS and see eye-watering entry prices that does nothing to get their kids out of the house for physical exercise and is more expensive over months than console gaming (let's face it, your kids wont settle on a starter set - and competitive play is to AoS what Electronic Arts is to console gaming - pay to win). But then, this hobby always was more expensive than console/computer gaming. Its apples and pears really. Console gaming wont fear GW - Warhammer is in a retail bubble all of it's own, which confounds business analysts. If there is any other comparison, it might be gambling, based purely on the addiction for the hobby (and those dice rolls!). At least with our hobby, while it might cost you a house, a marriage or sanity, you get a nice display case of amazing plastic models. With gambling you'd get nowt!😁

Exploding skaven brought me back to Warhammer. Back in the day, I played WFB until life and career got in the way. My models were largely sold or traded away until I had but a shoe box of plastic and metal skaven and skeletons left gathering dust in the garage. Fast forward to three years ago, and my eldest son - who was 7 at the time - and I were looking to an alternative to wargaming which at that time consisted of Black Powder and Dystopian Wars. I had an old set of Epic miniatures but that scale was too close to Dystopian Wars, so out came the shoe box. After an hour or so of looking through AoS 1.0 rules and warscrolls, we set up opposing sides of skaven and skels from the late 1980s and played our first AoS game. It was messy, we made some of it up, got plenty wrong, but it was damned fun. What sealed it was the kamikaze warpfire teams that had a tendency to explode which my eldest thought was highly amusing (I was the skaven player). That sealed it, as did the flexibility of the rules, short playing time etc. But for me, AoS was more dynamic than I remembered WFB, which was more a game of attrition, for the army and the player (I thought it got dull rather quickly). So almost 3 years later, and enough money splashed out that could buy a decent sized family car, we have five 2000 point armies, and four 1000 pt factions. And a tonne of good gaming memories!

It depends where you get the low down on costs which varies on the internet from £100k to as little as £30k. Thing is, no one knows for sure how much GW spends on production costs unless you look at their yearly report which doesn't drill down to individual minis. I've had a trawl through the internet over the last hour and the costs are as clear as mud.

Blimey! £100k for a mold sounds a tad pricey. By that reckoning the Bonereapers cost £millions to bring out, almost the same price as a budget movie!

Before descending into doom and gloom about current price increases, I reckoned that a little analytics would present a different story to current pricing and whether this was indeed still a good value hobby. So I focused on the Start Collecting sets, and worked backwards, making sure I was valuing the start collecting sets compared to individual sets, the points value, and even a hobby value based on the age of the sculpts and the size of the bases (the bigger the base, the bigger the hobby value such as assembly and paint job 😉). This isn’t an exact science, so there may be a few minor inaccuracies (some may say the same for GW pricing) but I thought this would give an idea about pricing approaches and what is to come: Kharadron Overlords Start Collecting This 2018 boxset released was for AoS 2.0, but with AoS 1.0 models Contents (price individually/points in Pitched Battle): Endrinmaster £17.50/120pts 5 Grundstok Thunderers £25/90 pts 3 Skywardens/3 Endriggers £25/100 or 120 pts Grundstok Gunhauler £30/130 pts Total saving on individual spend: £97.50 - £60 = £37.50 saved Total army points value: 440/460 pts Hobby value: 5xunit models on 32mm bases 1x hero on 32mm base 3xcavalry unit on 32mm bases 1xartillery unit on 105mm base Hobby comments: A slim box with not a lot of plastic, and low model count (10). Gunhauler isn’t bad though, and these are Age of Sigmar sculpts, not Oldhammer. Overall comment: A decent saving of £37.50 masks problems of pricing. The Grundstok Thunderers are massively overpriced individually (£25 for 5 models/ 1 model on 32mm bases at £5 per model/ or 3.6pts for £1). The Gunhauler is better value (4.3 pts per £1), but it isn’t brilliant. The hero is of good value for points (6.9pts per £1). The cavalry is almost standard but you get only 3 (better than the Grundstok Thunderers value, but not the best out there). Overall, the set is not great value for the hobbyist, even with some eye-catching models, and is basic value for the gamer (7.3 pts per £1), set against absurd prices individually. Overall, a slim boxset masking problems of over-pricing for individual boxes and poor hobby value overall. Seraphon Start Collecting: This 2016 boxset was released for AoS 1.0 using Oldhammer models Contents (price individually/points in Pitched Battle): Oldblood on Carnosaur £50/240 pts 8 Saurus Knights £22.50/ 80pts for 5 (both only have 8 knights) 12 Saurus Warriors £25 (for 20)/ 90pts for 10 Total saving on individual spend: £97.50 - £55 = £42.50 Total Army value (based on complete units): 410 pts Total Skirmish value (based on models): 476 pts Hobby value: 1xbehemoth hero on 120mm oval base 12xunit models on 32mm bases 8xcavalry models on 60mm Oval bases Hobby comments: big box of plastic, with a centrepiece model in the carnosaur. Lots of accessories too. Sure, they’re Oldhammer sculpts, but they stand up very well compared to the recent ones. Overall comment: Annoyingly incomplete boxset for matched play (5 extra models or 2 incomplete units), but good for Skirmish or combined with other SC boxes. And you can’t go wrong with the hobby side with a massive model in the carnosaur which is £50 on its own. Points wise, not bad at all (9.5 pts per £1), against individual costs of 4.8 pts for £1 (Carnosaur) and 7.2 pts for £1(warriors). Pricing for Seraphon seem good both individually (although pricey for the carnosaur in Matched Play) and balanced in this boxset both for gamer and the hobbyist. Beastclaw Riders Start Collecting: This 2016 boxset was released for AoS 1.0 using Oldhammer models Contents (price individually/points in Matched Play): 1 Stonehorn £37.5/400 pts 4 Mournfang Pack £40/280pts Total saving on individual spend: £77.50 - £55 = £22.50 Total Army value: 680 pts Hobby value: 1xbehemoth hero on 120mm oval base 4x large cavalry unit models on 90mm Oval bases Hobby comments: Despite only 5 models, this is a big box of plastic, with a centrepiece model in the Stonehorn. Overall comment: A baffling boxset in some ways. You only save £22.50 on individual prices, but you get plenty in terms of hobby and gaming. The best value Start Collecting set around, with 680pts to play with (12.4 pts per £1), one centrepiece model for the hobbyists, and four large models that also look good. What is odd about this, is that in terms of value, individually Beastclaw units are priced fairly. Invidually, the Stonehorn is great value both for the points and for the model. However, you still get some savings on SC box, so it’s worth it. Greywater Fastness Start Collecting: This 2019 was boxset released for AoS 2.0, using mostly Oldhammer models Contents (price individually/points in Matched Play): 1 Warden King £15/110 pts 1 Cogsmith £15/60pts 10 Ironbreakers £30/130 pts 1 Gyrobomber £30/80 pts Total saving on individual spend: £90 - £60 = £30 Total Army value: 380 pts Hobby value: 1xhero on 32mm base 1xhero on 25mm base 10xunit models on 25mm bases 1xartillery model on 50mm base Hobby comments: 13 models, 2 heroes on small bases and an artillery piece from mostly old sculpts. Hardly spectacular, and it shows in the slim box size – half the size of Beastclaw and Seraphon start collecting boxes. Overall comment: You’d be forgiven in thinking ‘what the heck?’ when looking at this start collecting set. 380 pts for £60 is awful value (6.3pts per £1). Worse than the Kharadron set, and masks the terrible value of individual prices but only just. The gyrobomber is ok as a model, but individually at £30, is nowhere near worth it (2.6pts per £1), both for the model, and for the points. And the Start Collecting boxset hardly makes up for that poor value. The heroes are lacklustre choices. Even thematically, this could have been so much better for Greywater Fastness (including a hellblaster volley gun?) The fact this has been priced as a ‘premium’ start collecting set (not £55 but £60) beggars belief for what are mostly old sculpts. This is at best £50s worth of models for £60, and I'm being charitable there. Summary: I was hoping to show some rhyme and reason in the recent pricing that I had somehow overlooked, but couldn’t, alas. If that doesn’t show what a mess pricing is, I don’t think anything will. Games Workshop are pricing products arbitrarily; not in terms of points value, hobby value, new sculpts nor materials value – their pricing is all over the place. To then apply price increases feels even more absurd given the baseline prices reflect no sensible (or transparent) reasoning whatsoever. If the most recent Start Collecting sets (as in Greywater Fastness) represents GWs approach for future sets, and by extension, individual boxes, then I suspect any pricing increases in the future will also not reflect any reason other than a requirement to improve their profits by some alchemical or byzantine process. So going from a point of optimism, I now despair (a little). Perhaps I will find more sanity in pricing from eBay resellers from now on?

It shouldn't be that way, I agree. And I know there'll be dissenting voices saying "Games Workshop have always been that way and are still going strong." Well, the Titanic springs to mind. (And no, GW haven't always been that way - perhaps since the 90s sure). It's clear from the forum that Games Workshop are on a warning from some converts to Age of Sigmar: Cities of Sigmar squatting, the constant price increases, strange rules (and some may say, power-creep, though still not sure about this), all build up to chip away at the faith in a business that is outwardly with the hobbyists but is acting not in their interests at all. The Games Workshop phenomenon the media talk about focuses on GW's success from opening more stores to making more profits when much of the entertainment industry is in recession, including retail. It's success is due mainly to its incredible models and the faith of the hobbyists, as well as longevity due to improved lore and good game mechanics (still think it's one of the best systems out there - but it's at risk of bloat due to Bonereapers 'new' rules). That faith is being sorely tested again. And loyalty is something every business needs when a country is going into recession. Let's hope they don't "ass"ume otherwise - I'd prefer a stronger GW than one that will tank like so many other games makers recently.

Is AoS in a great place? Well, after this evening I've thought about this differently... As a predominantly Chaos player, a Slaves to Darkness battletome is something I've been looking forward to more than any other Chaos battletome, for the lore and the rules. When the new tome was announced this evening I knew immediately that I would be pre ordering this. That soured the moment I saw the new sculpt for the Lord of Chaos. Sure , he looks great but he's not mounted on a manticore. And after all the Squatting of models recently such as the Skaven wind globe team, and mass culling of Order units in CoS I immediately panicked that the £32 I spent on my manticore-riding lord over the summer was pointless. I know this doesn't automatically mean he will be Squatted, but GW have recent form in this area, often without any obvious reasons. And even if he doesn't get Squatted, by extension this worry means I dont trust Games Workshop with my hobby. And it's an expensive hobby. So why would I buy another model if there's no guarantee of GW supporting it even for the immediate future? Do I trust GW with my purchases past and present? I'm not sure that I do. And until I am sure, I've decided not to buy anything further from them. At least for the next few months or so. AoS might be going in the right direction, but you get the feeling there are callous hands steering this ship, without much care for the passengers. I hope I'm wrong. In the last 2 years I've invested much time and money in this hobby for it to sour.

The lack of sense in pricing between models also discourages. Start Collecting sets, for example, is where GW should show balanced pricing, even increases. Yet the dart-board pricing model is in effect. It's worse since the price increases as they mean a difference of between £5 on Start Collecting sets yet without any sense as to why. An example is the new Greywater Fastness Start Collecting set with 380 points of largely old sculpt models for £60. Compare that to the Beastclaw Riders set which has 700 points of models for £55, and IMHO better sculpts. It does honestly feel like the have and have-nots factions, and that isnt even down to the rules, which is for another topic. If there was consistency in pricing, the increases might even be palatable. As it stands it feels botched, with the hobbyists feeling the pain the most. It wont take much for the GW phenomenon to burst. And they're going the right way to make that happen. A shame considering they're doing more right than wrong with the overall game.

I could spend an age answering this but for me I'll distill the good and bad in a few bullets. First the good: - the AoS lore is more solid than it's ever been. There's more structure, more excitement, and this is borne out in the dozens of flavours of play we get in the game. -You can literally do anything with the rules, from tournaments to Dungeons & Dragon style skirmish games. Its about the most flexible system out there. It relies only on the imagination and ingenuity of the gamers. What more could you want? - the models are simply incredible. Some of the best sculpts out there. Sure, there are exceptions in the production line, but I've had non-gamers say some of my models are works of art, and I'm only a half-decent painter. - battletomes are being updated all the time and no two factions feel the same; keeps the interest, keeps the excitement And now for the bad: - battletomes and factions are getting updates all the time, and so quickly that mistakes are too common. Some rules decisions are frankly bewildering. Its not balance, just a lack of common-gaming-sense and proper quality control. - the sculpts are good, but boy are we now paying for it. Price hikes feel a bit like a cash grab to many of us. It wont be long until the bank of goodwill runs out. There are other game systems out there... - the AoS lore is better, but the books are not. I haven't finished one yet, and while the writers are in my mind excellent, I get the feeling they're not given enough freedom to write decent lore-making fiction. There's too much GW interference. And the realms themselves are too infinite for their own good. Realms are less ephemeral these days, but GW need to do this better to be engaging. Overall though, AoS is much better, but my enjoyment lies on a knife's edge. I've spent too much on the hobby to ditch it, but I could have a nice 2 week holiday, or a down payment on a car, if I put the lot on eBay, you know?

I think the general policy of GW making less than transparent decisions around prices and a closed door to the public, will back-fire on their commercial model. We are entering a recession (retail particularly) and disposable income even on an addictive hobby like this will be limited. If, however, there was a reason beyond their profit margins/being overstretched that guided price increases, such as the cost of plastics, paying staff better wages than the rubbish ones they get currently etc, then fair enough. But they wont communicate that. My gut feeling is that GW have overstretched themselves or they are at the mercy of the markets and their share prices.

Completely agree with the comments here. And while the current commercial model doesn't anger me, it does bemuse, and if I'm honest, have me concerned. I haven't bought from a GW store since we visited Warhammer World back in April, and even then I went for a solitary Master Moulder. We have 2 other hobby stores here, one with a 10% discount, the other with 20%. I buy all my stuff from there. I'm sure the GW manager is miffed by this as we always come into look but never buy, and yet I still have regular source of projects. That source comes mainly from savvy buys from eBay, but myself and eldest son are budgeting on a points vs prices basis: if it's near enough £10 for 100 points, then it's worth it. Exceptions tend to be for ultra cool models. But that really is the exception. Since April we've bought Nagash, Gotrek and Thundriks Thunderers. All follow the above restrictions on our hobby purchases. Theres no way in hell, for example, we'd buy Chainrasps. And that brings me to Bonereapers. It's no secret that I'm not a fan of the sculpts (too cartoonish for me) but my eldest is. Until he saw the price of Feast of Bones. He made the decision to not collect that army himself. And he is ten years old. Not the best age to alienate the next generation of hobbyists then.

GW has decided for me on Feast of Bones. Priced out at £115, way more than the last box sets for what will be around 1200 points of combined models, and that's even if I want Ogre units (which I'll be honest are old ugly sculpts in the main or incomplete such as the leadbelcher unit). I know there's some bonereaper love here but this boxset has left me (dead) cold. Even with the panic over power-creep (and you know it wont last as they'll be nerfed by this time next year) just cant see myself buying it, either for me or my eldest kid. ☹️ RIP bonereapers...

These are good points. And I would agree, the boxsets are usually good value. Although I can feel Aussie and Kiwi gamers pain for the pricing. It does seem a tad expensive. On the box itself, I gotta say that compared to the last four boxsets, (Wrath, Loon, Carrion and Blight) this is the ugliest sculpted boxset we've had so far. The ogre models aren't what you call inspiring, and some already know my opinions on the Ossiarch. That's in contrast to the morghasts, which are elegance personified. They could've really done with a Ossiarch vs Cities set, for example, using Aelve sculpts which could've made up for the cartoony Ossiarch forces. Or at least gone for Beastclaws over the straight up Ogres?

It wouldn't take much if anything to rebox this as a Battleforce: To be honest, don't know why GW aren't resurrecting these sets for Cities of Sigmar. Another mystifying decision from Nottingham...

Yep my thoughts too. Tho should add my eldest son loves the range and has asked if the Bonereaper Start Collecting set will be available for Christmas. So yep, I reckon this might be a marmite thing.

Gotta say I'm feeling more and more underwhelmed by these models. They look and feel very 40k, which is perhaps what GW might be wanting from this, but just aint for me. The latest model, looks like... well ... It looks like a skeleton riding in a Mech. Not very fantasy. Not even steampunk. Skullpunk, perhaps? The poses are not organic enough for my liking, and would look more at home in a kid's video game than as an AoS range. I've never looked at a range of AoS miniatures before without any envy (we've collected about six factions up to 2000 pts), until this one came out. Doubly annoying since when we visited Warhammer World earlier this year and I saw the Tomb Kings, I thought it was an amazing faction to be 'squatted'. And compared to the Tomb Kings, the Bonereapers feel like Fortnite figures. Dissapointed to say the least. 😕

Cheers Seraphage. Got them out and compared them to the Saurus Warriors and they are a tad smaller. Plus, a few have blow-pipes so I might just run them as Skinks and a unit of Chameleon Skinks? They fit 25mm bases fine, and have the added bonus of one looking like a star priest. I'll give them some kind of background about being descended from Slann or something, or pulled from time itself as a lost maelstrom unit; kinda the Sons of Slann or something along those lines.

Hi guys While myself and 'Number One' son are currently gaming with Skaventide and Cities of Sigmar, 'Number Two' son has started out in Age of Sigmar with a boxset of Seraphon, which he will be augmenting with the Start Collecting boxset later this month (for his 8th birthday, bless!). And, having unearthed some of my Oldhammer miniatures, I've found about 20 Oldhammer metal Slann warriors. Any ideas what I can proxy these for without having to spend hours modifying them? I've included a photo here from the internet as an idea, but they're bigger than skinks and more frog than lizard, so not sure they can be Saurus. Would dearly love to use them, but just not sure... Thanks

Indeed, and unnecessary. For that command ability it could just be a re-roll for battleshock instead. It doesn't matter how masterful your general is or how much fear they can instill in a unit, if you've lost 80% of 40 model unit in one go, you're gonna run away!