Kaylethia

I'd add that the Spites or Outcast abilities haven't come up in any of my games with them yet, due to the ease of battleshock immunity (actual or effective) either through bravery, unit size, allegiance abilities, or a CP.

I build one and a half, transported them once, and decided to magnetize the branches. So far, none done and I just keep them at the store.

Some of the time went to whinging about shooting, telepoting, sylvaneth spells, Dryads being unkillable in or near woods, sylvaneth being unkillable murdermachines overall, IJ being unable to kill anything, me always rolling so well on casting rolls that unbinding is almost impossible, me always winning priority, and how statistics never applies to his rolls. He's a great opponent otherwise, I tell him to knock it off, and it'll be a cold day in hell before he gets any sportsmanship prizes. About half an hour went to two players in our escalation league who stopped by to get paints and had a misunderstanding about how kill points work. About Ghyrstrike: I feel that it is very narrow in playstyle, opposed to, for example, the staff, Briarsheath or the one with 3d6 casting.

I subbed out all the Spites, Outcast and the extra CP for another unit of 10 Dryads, Forest Folk and Gladewyrm. My opponent ran Rob Reimers' list from Cancon: Allegiance: Big Waaagh!Mortal Realm: GhurMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)- General- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Command Trait: Brutish Cunning- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw- Mount Trait: Mean 'UnWurrgog Prophet (160)- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War CryOrruk Warchanter (110)- Warbeat: Get 'Em BeatOrruk Warchanter (110)- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)10 x Orruk Brutes (280)- Jagged Gore-hackas3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)- Jagged Gore-hackas3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)- Jagged Gore-hackasIronfist (160)Balewind Vortex (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 134 We rolled off, and got Gifts From the Heavens as our battleplan, set up our table, I finished first and gave him the first turn: Our effect scenery was, furthest to closest: a volcanic pile of rocks, a deadly market stall on a hill, and an overgrown statue. My Triumph was rerolling a run or charge roll, and my Place of Power was my original Wyldwood. He ran most his units further up the board, used his two free uses of Mighty Destroyers to move his gruntas up the board on each flank, moved a few things up the board, put the Prophet onto the Balewind, collected 12 Waagh points, and passed the turn. I failed Verdant Blessing on my Branchwraith, Mystic Shield on Drycha, and didn't have anything relevant to cast on the TLA. TLA popped a wood out on my right flank, in preparation for the objectives to drop, Drycha shuffled into the corner of the ruin next to her and shot a Gore-Grunta off the table (using a CP to reroll ones), dealing 5 mortal wounds and 3 regular. The TLA shuffled closer to Drycha, but the wood was blocking him from shooting. I deployed my two units of 10 Dryads in reserve, and dropped the first behind my unit of 30. Round 2: His objective dropped in the middle, and mine into the back edge of the wood I had just put down last turn. I won initiative and took the double to fortify my objective, as he would have been able to take it for a single turn and keep me off his. I failed to cast: Verdant Blessing on Drycha and Arcane Bolt on TLA. I cast: Roused to Wrath, summoning another 10 dryads onto my left flank. I teleported my two Durthu to join my TLA and Drycha on the left flank and dropped my other reserve unit of 10 Dryads there, teleported my unit of 30 as well. The TLA shuffled around a bit. Drycha shot (again using a CP for rerolls) another Grunta, leaving the last one on a single wound thanks to a lucky beard save. Picked up 2 VP and passed the turn. He picked up another 10 Waagh points, dispelled and recast the Balewind to move up the board, cast Mystic Shield on his Brutes, free-CA-moved his Maw-Krusha and Brutes toward my objective. He moved both again in the movement phase, then tried to Iinnard-Burst my unit of 10 dryads on the edge of the woods, but no casualties. He charged Maw-Krusha who took a single mortal wound from the wyldwood, the single Grunta and a line of his Brutes into my unit of 10 dryads, Destructive bulk and a single activation of the Maw-Krusha was more than enough to wipe out the unit of Dryads and picking up 2 VP as well. I won priority for round three, and chose to go first. I failed Verdant Blessing on Drycha, TLA got his warscroll spell unbound, failed Roused to Wrath, absolutely forgot to cast Spiteswarm Hive. I moved to two Durthu around the wood to give him the double D-bomb, positioned TLA to shoot the Grunta, ran the Branchwraith behind my other wood, shuffled my dryads on the left flank up the board, moved the block of 30 as much into the wyldwood as possible but couldn't fit a few in. Drycha, rerolling ones again, put another 7 wounds into the Maw-Krusha, TLA shot, hit, wounded, and he saved, keeping the Grunta alive a bit longer. Both Durthu shot into the Brutes, dealing a total of 7 damage between them, killing two and putting wound on another. Non-General Durthu needed an 8, rolled a six, rerolled with the triumph, got a 9 and slammed into the brutes, tagging his last Grunta and staying just out of 3" of his Maw-Krusha. General Durthu needed a 9 (here is when I understood my mistake with the Hive), rolled an 8, rerolled with a CP, got another 8. Wyldwood didn't hurt anyone, and we were off to the races. Non-General Durthu managed to stomp the Brutes, but it didn't matter, as I had one unit in combat to his two. Six attacks, rerolling ones from charging, 3+/3+ sounds good, I hit 3 after rerolls, and missed everything on the wound roll, he dealt 6 in return. He uses a CP to ignore battleshock, I go to 5 VP. He gains exactly 8 Waagh points and is at exactly 30. Casts War Cry, I fail to unbind, puts a single mortal wound onto my general. Casts bolt, puts one more damage on my other Durthu. Casts Fists of Gork, I fail to unbind, kills two dryads. Mighty Destroyers helps the Brutes finish off the other Durthu. Moves a bit, charges his Maw-Krusha and Grunta into my dryads and his Brutes into my general, and his second unit of Gruntas into a unit of 10 Dryads on my left flank. Destructive bulk whiffs, and the wyldwood kills the Grunta. Durthu fails the stomp, Brutes kill Durthu, Maw-Krusha chain-activates and kills 18 more Dryads. Dryads do nothing in return, and cannot succeed battleshock, and lose the rest. His other unit of Gruntas take out 5 Dryads, taking a few wounds for their trouble. He picks up 6 VP for a total of 8. I concede, but we roll off for priority and I win it. There was a was for me to make a comeback, by moving up with Drycha and a unit of 10 Dryads against his two units of ardboys, but the game had gone on for four and a half hours at this point. I'll be trying this list again, but will be subbing out Ghyrstrike for the staff onto my Branchwraith, I'll have to build more Dryads, as I was proxying the unit I summoned. I missed having a unit of Tree-Revenants to keep him more honest about his objective holding. The list felt equally able of bringing the hurt, my plan just fell through to some rolling. Warclans are stupid powerful once they get their Waagh points going, and they have the tools to get them at a brisk pace. A very inevitable and incremental army. The battleplan is one I haven't played in a long time, although it is similar enough to Starstrike. Positioning was tricky enough that I didn't feel comfortable leaving my objective, trying to counter instead, after he took out my screening unit or I retreated them and charged back in. That didn't come into play this time, but I'll be playing him again some time. TL;DR: Dice > Trees < Shroomz

I have a 2k game this fine evening against Warclans or IJ. After not even thinking about listbuilding for far too long, this is what I came up with: Allegiance: Sylvaneth - Glade: Harvestboon Mortal Realm: Ghyran Spirit of Durthu (300) - General - Command Trait: Seek New Fruit - Artefact: Ghyrstrike Spirit of Durthu (300) - Artefact: The Silent Sickle Drycha Hamadreth (320) - Deepwood Spell: Regrowth Treelord Ancient (260) - Deepwood Spell: Regrowth Branchwraith (80) - Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines 5 x Spite-Revenants (60) 5 x Spite-Revenants (60) 5 x Spite-Revenants (60) 30 x Dryads (270) 10 x Dryads (100) Outcasts (100) Balewind Vortex (40) Spiteswarm Hive (50) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 106 The plan is to use spites as throwaway screens to blunt his assault and punch back harder. Drycha made the list because I recently repainted her in a Dreadwood scheme and haven't used her in a while. I'm still undecided about using Outcast as my battalion, I could drop the spites and extra command point, take another 10 dryads to take Forest Folk and Gladewyrm instead, playing the angle that I'll retreat, charge, get the rerolls and better positioning and some extra healing for my behemoths. Possibly a triumph as well. Pictures and the rest some time after the game.

@Landohammer I hope your scene improves, and that you don't take their strangeness too much to heart. Enjoy your other armies in the meantime.

@Landohammer That was my experience in 1k games on a 4x4 table, and I said (rather angrily, at times) your sentiment about Dreadwood almost word for word. I ended up starting Tzeentch for smaller games, although I was considering Seraphon to punish tables with loads of scenery. I've also seen what the Stormcast Mr. Doot can do. Have you had success talking to the TO privately about how their themed tables are making it very hard for you to play? I've shown to people how I couldn't deploy my first wood, and wouldn't be able to deploy another if they went first, or how I could deploy woods, but they wouldn't have any effect on the game, and they have been understanding. I can't play many events locally, as I'm the main organizer in my city, but for me, pickup games were the worst.

Pardon my tone, but if our best option is Hunters, why not bring more of them? They are bringing their best, after all. On the flipside, how many other factions do what we do? What kind of table setups do you have? Could you post pictures of your usual tables? How do they compare to the GHB example picture? Here's a shot from my last 2k game for comparison, set up using shop terrain and using the rules from the GHB: We played Escalation, and due to an unfortunate miscalculation in listbuilding, ended up with a 3-cast Branchwraith (balewind and staff) with more casts than relevant spells and four woods on the table. Our local old guard (mostly 40k) is of the opinion that you should have terrain is such quantity and size that you can't draw line of sight from any part of a table edge to any part of another table edge, but pushing the scenery rules has helped mitigate that.

When was the last time you didn't see a casual list inspired by an analysis off the internet? And when you did, how often was the same still true for the next game? When was the last time an analysis wasn't based at least in part on how quickly you table or cripple your opponent or how effectively you can shut down X or Y phase for your opponent? Our units don't have clearly defined roles because they (pardon the pun) branch out. Dryads carry defensive synergy and an offensive ability. Tree-Revenants can fight, they just aren't meant to take hits (unless they're screening for something else) while also having crazy mobility. Hunters were a meme in 1.0 Gnarlroot or mixed Order Soup, and they have both offensive power, a defensive ability, and increase the range of every CA you have. Treelords are force multipliers, even if they are random, via their stomp; and they can serve as a distraction. B-Wych is weird, but people have run the Bomb build, and she has certain uses in battleplans where you score with battleline and heroes. The Arch-Revenant passively boosts Hunters, and actively boosts everything in our army with the mobility to be where she needs to be if you don't have Hunters nearby. Everything has a somewhat nonstandard role, or a mix of roles. Dreadwood has inherent issues as well. You will not be able to generate enough command points to do all the things you want, for one. If you‘re referring to the version that has Spites for battleline and runs Outcast, you are bound to run into an army that is battleshock immune. Or one that always keeps at least one command point for Inspiring Presence. Another issue is that it forces your unit selection to a degree. You don't rely on wyldwoods, so you don't bring ways to get more, so you don't bring things that rely on wyldwood synergies and you bring things that are easy to teleport and can delete or cripple the unit they charge after teleporting. It isn't exactly a balanced strategy to begin with (it is effective as long as it works). If you have problems with wyldwood placement, talk to your opponents about it. In my case, the problem was solved by running more 2k games and starting a second army for 1k, since our 4x4 tables were too crowded. I also put a TLA in almost all of my lists to mitigate failing my casts or being unbound and have put a Branchwraith on a Balewind to summon Wyldwoods even further afield. Another interesting tip from Laurie: if you have at least three sets of Awakened Wyldwoods and struggle with placement, use the smallest pieces from each. Each piece in the kit is a Citadel Wood model, and you can mix and match them how you want, making the footprint bigger of smaller. Magic: 3d6 casting. Autocast a single spell from the lore per turn. Heal from casting. Positioning, as always is key, except a few exceptions that unbind anywhere. And you have valid list options that don't use wizards at all. Movement: Spiteswarm Hive, Wyldwoods, dryads, Tree-Revenants. Shooting: Treelords shoot. Hunters shoot. Heartwood makes Hunters shoot even better. Drycha. Charge: Tree-Revenants reroll one dice, Hunters are always in range for a CA, Spiteswarm Hive. Combat offense: Dryads hit on threes, even better with Winterleaf, Tree-Revenants can reroll a single dice, Spites have a big volume of attacks, Hunters swing and trample, Durthu can smack something, Arch-Revenant gives something more dice to throw. Drycha. Combat defense: Treelord stomps, Dryads are -1 to be hit near woods, Hunters reroll saves, TLA command ability. Battleshock: Place of Power, Hunters can spread Inspiring Presence.

I agree that Sylvaneth has some issues with ludonarrative dissonance that have been brought up earlier (bow hunters being elite but hitting on a 4+, for example). On the same note, why aren't S2D (especially with Khorne marks) immune to battleshock? Why are Fyreslayers less likely to run away than demons or undead? I digress. The big disconnect (for me, at least) lies in the fact that we don't have any single thing to point at and say "we're the best at this." But we are generally above the bog standard average for everything. Dryads are above average tarpits. Hunters are pure gas monstrous infantry while holding the line as well. Tree-revenants are teleporting speed bumps that force protection on backline objectives and soft units. Spites are glass cannon elite infantry that mess with bravery (and I fully realize that battleshock has become kind of a joke). We have cheap caster options in the B-Wych and B-Wraith. Regular treelords are almost like hunters while having worse bracketing due to damage table granularity, but they take heals better. Everyone else is strong in specific things. Sylvaneth have above average options in everything. While we can't build a list that will beat everything out there, we have list that will beat everything but X and Y. Hoping to dodge certain matchups at a tournament isn't much of a plan, but we do have popularity data to aid in general listbuilding.

Are we even sure this is from the Matched Play section? Based on the page numbers, I think it could be earlier in the book, but I don't have my GHB on hand. Edit: I should not be reading things before finishing my morning coffee, Matched Play is clearly stated multiple times.

Having started a Tzeentch demon army for an escalation league, 500 point and 1k games with DoT have felt like a breath of fresh air. That said, I agree with some of the points that Laurie brought up on the AoS Coach podcast: Bow Hunters aren't useless (a buddy ran an analysis, and they're roughly equal to 2 Celestar Ballistas in output), the 24 bow Hunter list was hilarious Our place in the game has shifted, and we don't necessarily need to kill things to win games thanks to wyldwoods, Dreadwood and Tree-Revenants enabling us to score late. We can play (and focus on) every phase of the game, but we don't have to. The above Arch-Rev, 4x5 Tree-Rev, 8x3 Bow Hunter Heartwood list being a prime example of doing one thing well. You give up magic, wyldwoods and teleports to just delete something each turn while also forcing your opponent honest about moving up the board. "The best Sylvaneth army isn't, in fact, CoS Living City" I'm not a competitive player however, just a random guy who tries to play once or twice a week, forgets rules, has trouble with crowded tables being the norm at 1k, and can't find enough time to finish all the stuff I've bought. I still like my angry demon trees, even if Hallowheart, Seraphon and Tzeentch do magic better, Tzeentch, KO, Fyreslayers and CoS do shooting better, Warclans charge better, Fyreslayers, Chaos and Destruction fight better, Fyreslayers, S2D, SCE and OBR hold the line better, and most things ignore battleshock better (or are actively helped by it, Pink Horrors are disgusting). That last line was extremely cathartic to finally get out. I don't think (from my very limited perspective) that Sylvaneth is in a particularly bad place, just that the rules and warscrolls are decidedly middle-of-the-road. Nothing stands out, but nothing is actively bad either. Which is a fine place to be in for an army that during the 1.0 days was regularly named one of the most unfun armies to play against.

Round 2: Tempest Eye Bogaloo! We played Starstrike on a 4x4 table. His list was: Warden King, 2x5 Pistoliers, 2x10 Hammerers, 10 Handgunners, 10 Arkanauts, 1 Hellstorm Rock Battery (lovingly proxied by what I think was an old Grudge Thrower model), 1 Celestar Ballista. I goofed a bit with my early interactions, luckily he didn't shoot my heroes off the table. I forgot to bring a proxy for the endless spell, opting instead to try out an extra CP. Against Greenskins, I felt like the CP could've worked better, while in this game, I felt that the endless spell would've put in a lot of work. I pushed for more engagements on my left flank, while the center line objective dropped in the middle of the table and the other two were very deep into my right flank. I ended up pushing a tie on VP and losing on kill points again in a very rough and very fun game where there was a lot of back and forth. This army and this list is working well for me and helping me develop better positioning and threat assessment skills. As for changes: I'm thinking about building 3 Enlightened on disc to sub in for the Skyfires to have a bit more melee power outside of the Screamers, who seem to need the buff from the Hosts Arcanum CA.

Reporting back: we ended up playing Gifts From the Heavens on a 4*4 table for a total of four sectors instead of the usual six. He was trying out a Big Waagh list with a Warchanter, 2x10 Ardboys, 20 Arrowboys, 10 Morboys and a Wurrgog Prophet. I gave him the first turn, after deploying clustered in the middle, he moved up a bit, assumed that Look Out, Sir! would keep his general safer from my massive shooting. In his defense, he hadn't gone against anything like the skyfires before, so when I shot three shots at his general, got a natural six, subbed in two more from my Fate Dice, dealt 6 mortal wounds, he was understandably upset. It was almost a repeat of the time I fielded Kurnoth Hunters for the first time and took out his general in a single shooting phase. He kept winning initiative and I kept forgetting to move up my heroes to blast magic and use command abilities on my units, so we ended up drawing on victory points and he won on kill points, 730 to 500. Big takeaways from the game: Screamers need the CA or need ot retreat. Otherwise you're stuck in a pillow fight. Try to keep a CP open to save your Horrors, it's nuts when you take 24 damage in melee, split, and lose everything in battleshock. Pink Horros have a ward save, and I should remember to use it. I have another game lined up in a few hours, this time against some variety of dwarves. I am enjoying this army very much at the 1000 point level and I've already planned a not-khorne-for-reals paint scheme.

Trying this list out against Ironjawz, now that my local quarantine has been lifted and the FLGS allows 1-on-1 games without spectators. Looks nasty, and I'm looking forward to the salt mine that comes with summoning 360 point worth of extra nonsense for (as my opponent will put it) no cost. If I remember to take pictures, I'll slap them up when I get a chance.

You wouldn't happen to have a source for that?

Howdy, northern neighbour! On topic: In the events I've run so far, I've tried to balance battleplans and realms in such a way that different styles of army have a slight advantage. A plan with regular scoring, one with heroes, another with behemoths, based on ageneral feeling that elite armies cannot always compete, while we have Ironjawz and BCR players. Our community is on the small side, we've had multiple 1k events and a doubles event this weekend, working up to 1,5 and 2k around fall or winter, so this is more anecdotal and local shenanigans than anything actionable.

@Emissary is that with the new scenery rules from GHB 2019? I run between 1-2k, and I'm starting with 2 so far.

I played a game of Meeting Engagements last week against a GA Order army (effectively mixed dawi plus a regular hurricanum). A buddy wanted to try things out, and I was itching for a game. We played The Raid, with my army being: 1x of each hero besides the Spellweaver (don't have her yet) 10 WWR 2X20 Glade Guard NnP general, with Forget-Me-Knot and better teleport, 40 points left over for a triumph. Got the one with battleshock immunity, and it saved my Glade Guard that took a bunch of damage from his Hurricanum while I didn't have CP available. Neither of us had read the battleplans before we started, I put one unit into each contingent with two heroes in the main body. He had frontloaded his spearhead with Grundstok Thunderers that arrived much later into the game than he had anticipated. We fought it out to a draw, not being able to keep a hold of more than two objectives until scoring, and alternating who scored on kill points. I find myself liking the "slow burn" style that ME offers, and while I can get overwhelmed with a larger number of units on the field, creating a plan with 2-3 units and adding on new units turn by turn was completely managable.

If our glades work like Stormcast or Fyreslayers, Ylthari isn't a lock to Oakenbrow, she just won't benefit from your glade of choice. I'm starting to like the idea of Kurnoth Hunters more and more, perhaps with a single unit of either kind of revenants for battleline. Their loadouts work very well with minimum/double sizes. Something like a wraith/wych in each contingent and a unit of spites in the main body leaves 700 points for 9 hunters and an Arch-Revenant. Enough to get a chance at trees each turn, but outside of teleporting and summoning, doesn't really require that many. Hunters having the killing power, summoned dryads for objectives. Rough, but a starting point. Edit: here's an example of my quickly kitbashed wraith for those who'd need a second or third wraith in a hurry. Piece of old Citadel Wood, leftover spite leader torso and arm. I've since painted and based her, but don't have a picture of the finished model.

Out of the six ME battleplans, S/M/R order is used three times. M/S/R, M/R/S and R/M/S once each. I think we might have to keep a wizard in each contingent, just to have a chance at putting new woods onto the table, even though that'll eat into our 4 leader maximum allotment. TLA and two branchwraiths cost a hefty amount of points, and three wraiths means you won't be able to put as much pressure onto the field with TLA, Durthu, Drycha or (heaven forbid) Alarielle. Considering how scoring is influenced by killing models, Ylthari might make the cut just for another damage dealing spell and caster; alternatively, the branchbomb could prove to be effective.

You should note that some battleplans mess with deployment order. I played The Raid yesterday, and is went main body - rear guard - spearhead. Haven't read the others yet, but I think there's one where you deploy in reverse order.

The big one was teleporting any number of units. The current one is limited to one unit.

Something I noticed: our extra run/charge movement modifies rolls. The basic artefact gives +2 to run and charge rolls, and the Free Spirits ability skips rolling.

My small claim to fame. Haven't had a chance to play them, nor am I by any means a competitive Underworlds player. I will however, try to pit them into every AoS and Skirmish list I can, effectiveness be damned!