Mayple

Free wins? Nice!

Didn't even finish up my Gloomspite army before GW decided to devour my wallet. BUT THAT'S OKAY!

Time will tell whether it was legit trolling, or muddled rumours in confusing form. regardless, I'll be leaving my pitchfork at home jumping at either side of it seems premature.

All the yes Excellent judgement.

As in, fixed? The mistake was noted a while ago, yes. Because both the download from GW's product page, and the battletome itself says 3+/3+, and an increase to 4+/3+ with an extra attack is always worse than one less attack at 3+/3+ (which would be a weird stealth change to make) So the only outlier is the app itself, which, while accurate, is not without its flaws. Edit: Bam! They fixed it. That's some efficient rules team (or whoever) right there Kudos!

I think we should message gw about the app mistake regarding the Troggboss hit rate. It says 4+/3+, while it should be 3+/3+. It's been there long enough that they probably won't see it unless we point it out

Where did you find that? I just looked at the Legends document and they only mention "Goblins" of different kinds (and a Goblin Warboss, as opposed to a Grot Warboss). The Orcs and Goblins section of the app has the "Gitboss", but he has no ability to buff, so what am I missing here?

Agreed. Had to read that one twice. Good for flexibility I guess but definitely odd.

Or both Stabbas are some of the most defensive units available Don't mistake them for a glass cannon, as they're far more of an immovable wall of mud than a hard-hitting/weak-hitting squishy unit. Assuming you go at least 60 or 40 of them, of course.

Bounderz + Loonboss on cave squig is the closest thing to essential you come with squigs I run three units of 10 bounderz myself, alongside a grot/troggoth army lead by a cunning (loonskin) Troggboss. I could definitely see it working out when scaling down the squigs for more grots/troggoths/magic, so go for it hard to go wrong with more bodies anyway, if you're up for that.

Whoop! Finally got my much delayed order Squigs for days! The loonshrine is massive! You could also (hilariously) hide your entire support cast of grot shamans and gobbapalooza inside it's little cave, for whatever purpose. Going to have plenty of fun with this

Ouch! Yeah, I can see why you lost that one The scenario heavily favours his army, and you got absolutely destroyed by that realm feature. That being said, you'll generally benefit a lot from either splitting your 'ard boys into 2x10, or settling for their sweet discount at 30. Anything in-between is both detrimental for your positioning (can't split it up, so you can be outmaneuvered. 30 works around this by covering a much larger area effectively), and eats into your point efficiency (those final 10 boys are extremely cheap) - Your brutes would also benefit from splitting up. You'd get one extra brute boss, and flexibility in maneuvering. Jagged hakkas are a fine choice, as that allows them to stand behind their smaller ard boys cousins and smack the enemy) - I'm also of the opinion that you've brought a warchanter too many to the battle, but that's pure preference, so don't worry too much about it Also note that splitting up your units means more units counted for the purpose of the Waagh roll. As a sort of specific step to take against LoN in particular; consider the Ardfist battalion over the Ironfist. You'll benefit greatly from the ability to come back from a bad fight, and your troops are generally much tougher than whatever the LoN player can throw at you, meaning the power of getting them back from the dead tilts in your favour. Mind that I'm not saying it is better in general (although I do think so) - but that it could help you bridge the gap in this matchup and allow you compete more evenly. List shenanigans aside, the only thing/strategy I see that you would be forced to employ during the knife to the heart/no running battle would be to tank it up for two rounds, and try to cheese him on round three by going on an all out hail mary offense in a bid to get both of the objectives on your turn, winning you the game. That means you'd position yourself around your own objective (probably a bit forwards), keep your Mawcrusha chaffed off as a way to force the opponent to keep his vampire lord on zombie dragon in reserve (your mawcrusha would surely eat that guy for breakfast) - let your 'ardboys absorb whatever he throws at you (30 works great for this, but you only had 20, so I don't know if they could withstand it, to be honest) - and then use your infantry - i.e; whatever remains of your 'ardboyz + brutes to focus-fire the reapers, and then the mournghul (in that order, even if they're both up-close) ---- If that leaves the reapers weakened but not dead, great, but you'd be looking to get a small breather in the time it takes the reapers to re-enter the fight after ressurecting. Your Gore-gruntas would in theory be free to roam along the flanks to bait out his Vampire lord//wait for their moment of glory at that comes at round 3. Waaghing out as much as you can would be the name of the game here, since you're taking the fight stationary, and thus perfectly positioned for the golden toof battleshock immunity, so you don't need the CP for anything else. The time to go -all out- with this would probably be round two, to free yourself up for a round three charge. You'd form a giant moshpit, in other words, and keep it slugging until you break it open on the third turn onwards. If the vampire lord had exposed himself at any point during all of that, your mawcrusha has one job, and that's the one. No vampire lord (general) = no ressurection - but it is generally safest to assume you'll be unable to get him out of the game, as the LoN player knows how valuable he is. Come round three, you'd either be dead, or have your one shot at glory. If your opponent is clever, he'll anticipate your hail mary, and play more defensively himself, but that still leaves you with the initiative. And at the end of the day, your Orruks got to have a big brawl, so you technically win regardless But that is pretty much a losing fight. A combination of realm feature (major), scenario (minor), and lack of staying power in your list (minor) adds up to a seriously tough uphill struggle So I don't think you should be too dismayed by that loss. You'll find a much more even fight when the odds aren't stacked against you before you even put your models down.

What was your list? What scenario did you play? Advice aside, you can try asking the Lon player to use a suboptimal (not bad) list against you so that you can more easily identify how to pick apart that faction. For learning purposes, essentially. He'd benefit too, since it gives him more of a challenge. But I'll see what I can do for you anyway when I know your list and the scenario I don't think you shouldn't play against Lon. That won't help you figure out how to beat it at all

What's the theme?

@JonnyTheKing haha! That's the same list I've been running! Minus the trait choices and artifacts

Which type of Troggoth melted away?

Sure, but irrelevant. I was arguing that he is the tankiest of the three. Which he is. Anything beyond that is debating usefullness, which I have no intention of getting into. I agree with this, and I'm not a mathhammer person myself (you haven't seen me throw up a graph yet, and probably never will But facts are facts, and sometimes statistics show a truth you can't argue with using ingame experience; Troggboss is tankier (superior defensively, not equal) than Mangler Squig and Webspinner Arachnarock. The Troggboss has access to defensive stats that the other two can never achieve on account of being monsters, or not having access to the same traits, while also having a notably smaller footprint, making it easier to screen. This is the argument. Talking about anything else, i.e usefulness, or best choice, is not relevant, because I'm not making any claims about those. My views are not represented, because this is an objective truth: Troggboss is the tankiest of the three. Also, your playgroup could be the top 10 players in the world, and I'd still have to tell you that their positioning is off if they get their Troggboss murdered in scenarios that you first described (with the squigs) - Status or number of people does not equal a better argument. The argument itself is the only factor. Or we could start throwing our accomplishments around, if that's how you want to back up statements. Not my cup of tea; I've never lost a tournament. My friends are highly competitive - Which is irrelevant to the argument, so you should disregard it, as will I yours. So if we're going to debate more, please keep it strictly to the actual statement

Really shouldn't use this as any kind of proof. It will skew your insight. Your friend had no screen units. His prerogative, but his general was never going to survive, regardless of what model he used. Assume proper positioning when talking hypothetically, or we might as well write them all off as bad heroes that will die instantly to any hard-hitting combat focused unit in the game. He is. Not by himself just standing out in the open, but that goes for any unit. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Things work in correlation with each-other beyond simple number crunching combo synergies. A hero that refuses to go away if given even the barest notion of support is one heck of a useful tool. If you ignore access to cover and look out sir, yes. If you account for them, no. Statistically superior to defensively, not equal to. Seeing as how they're not available to Gloomspite Gitz, have wildly different roles, and exist within different armies (i.e: different faction playstyles and weaknesses) entirely. I can't really do much with that comparison. Arkhan is a better caster than Skragrot. Still using Skragrot 😛 And on average, the double regeneration goes off too Statistics are nice like that. Additionally, regeneration can not be dispelled. Right on. Don't let that subjectivity cloud your perceptions though.

@Ekrund Oath Splitters Anything a Webspinner Shaman can do defensively, a Troggboss can do better. Any buff or combo that adds to survivability can also be applied to the Troggboss. The only thing unique to the webspinner is the healing spell, and that casting value 8 is one tough cookie. Different flavours, different purposes, but you're way off course if you claim that the Troggboss is -less- tanky than its counterparts. It is the one area where it actually shines 😛 Also whoever let you run a mangler squig at it should work on their positioning. 60mm is not difficult to protect. Anything in the game can die instantly if positioned poorly. Mangler squig is the nuke Webspinner Spider is the utility Troggboss is the anvil Different tools, different jobs. Out of the three, he'd be the one I'd bring if I wanted my general to survive the duration of the battle while fighting just behind the front line. If I wanted to do something else, well, then I'd use something else 😛

That is correct

Allegiance: Gloomspite GitzMortal Realm: AqshyLoonboss on Giant Cave Squig (110)- General- Moonclan Stabba- Trait: Tough 'n' Leathery Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (300)- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Curse of da Spider GodMadcap Shaman (80)- Lore of the Moonclans: Squig LureDankhold Troggboss (300)- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 18 x Squig Herd (210)12 x Squig Herd (140)6 x Squig Herd (70)10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)10 x Boingrot Bounderz (200)Squig Rider Stampede (140)Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 168 I suppose this is your "If I bring a Troggboss" alternative then. Thermalrider cloak to have him follow the rest of your army, but whatever you prefer works. Very flexible leader, that one.

@Malakithe I kind of liked your first list better, especially since you could remove 10 hoppers, and swap 6 squig herds over from the other unit to have your battleline covered in exchange for 10 more bounders. As for this one, I think 5 less hoppers for any type of shaman will support you quite well. Hand of Gork might be an idea on that one for tactical flexibility. Artifact might as well go on your general here. Clammy cowl is a safe pick

@Lord Krungharr Only Fellwater, Rockgut and Dankhold unfortunately

Man, I've been ninjad four times in a row! loving it.

It is the most appropriate place to post it have no fear. Your list not bad at all. There are things you can do to "optimize" it more. For example the Loonboss with cave squig has no real purpose alongside all those squigs and troggoths, and could easily be replaced by a wizard, giving you more spellpower. Alternatively, swapping that Loonboss with cave squig and Rockguts out would enable you to bring a mangler squig and a 40-point endless spell. Not to say that Rockguts aren't good, but its good to know your options. Overral your list has punch, but no staying power for your own objectives beyond the Rockguts. It might therefore be wise to double down on what the list does well (fast movement, hard punch), by bringing the mangler and taking the fight to the enemy. It will be entertaining for both sides, at the very least, and would quite capable of pulling its weight. Defense through offense would be your rule of thumb for both your original list and the mangler squig alternative. If you want defense through defense, you'd need grots, and many of them. Squig herds are really nice. For 280 points you get 24 bodies on 25mm bases (so they fight in two ranks, which squig hoppers/bounderz can not) with 48 wounds and plenty of solid attacks. They're a viable horde alternative to regular grots, and as tiny cheap minimum units for battleline tax like you've done. Hard to go wrong