Baron Wastelands
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Everything posted by Baron Wastelands
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That’s interesting; not in my experience, but maybe that’s atypical. I play an ironclad at 1k, and in most games it gets burnt down reasonably easily - hordes can do it, big elites can do it, monsters can do it. As long as that happens off objectives I’m ok with it, but it isn’t that durable with only 4+ save. I play Zilfin mostly, mind, so it gets in the thick of things fast.
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I certainly wouldn’t take an admiral and an Endrinmaster at 1k - if you drop one or the other, you can fit a unit of endrinriggers and a unit of thunderers in. The problem is you aren’t taking a khemist, but he will muck up your points: a khemist, ironclad and 2x10 arkanauts will leave you 180 points, which is not ideal. The ironclad takes a lot of points out of 1k.
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I’d take deranged inventor as a trait, and vigordust injector as a relic. On you arch warlock as general. Spells, you can take all 3 with your three casters, though more more warp power is the best, but put it on your warlock engineer so he can still buff the fiends if the general gets sniped. Endless spell wlv is great and will want recasting, don’t forget. Put your general’s buffs mainly on the 6xstormfiend gunners, you won’t be sorry - and don’t foget to throw them a spark every turn. Inventor+injector+spark and they will just mow stuff down. You can’t really buff your wlc, so don’t try, but you can overcharge them, so I’d leave your warlock engineer with them initially. Use your 2 units of 3 fiends as interference, really. And don’t have a plan for your bombardier, that way he is free to explode himself when you need him to at the juiciest target you can find.
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But taking wounds is not doing nothing. Even if you don’t get into melee, that melee stormfiend gives you +7 wounds to take before you start reducing your ranged capacity. In a unit of 3 you can soak 12 damage before it takes out any guns, in a unit of 6, 19 wounds.
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I’d say things-catchers, as you need whips with the blades on packmasters. I’m using mine as a master-moulder though; in which case things-catcher again.
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20 rifle thunderers will do 20.67 wounds on average before saves (-1 rend) when khemist buffed, to anything. 12 light skyhooks (-2 rend) will do 16 wounds on average before saves when khemist buffed, 20.67 on heroes/monsters. The points about range, effectiveness resilience, and pistols are all good. However, if the khemist is sniped the skyhooks drop in effectiveness considerably, so rely more on the khemist buff than the thunderers: thunderers do on average about 14 wounds, arkanauts 8 wounds (10.33 vs heroes monsters). The pistols on 28 arkanauts do really help, and will do 14 wounds on average before saves (0 rend) if all are in range, 17.33 against heroes/monsters, without a khemist buff (which they ain’t getting if we assume the skyhooks are). With a khemist buff against 4+ saves, thunderers just short of 14 wounds. Arkanauts 13.33 with skyhooks (approx 17 vs hero/monster) plus 7 wounds from the pistols (8.67 vs hero/monster) if in range. Without a khemist buff against 4+ saves, thunderers do 9.67 wounds, arkanauts 6.67 skyhooks (8.67 vs hero/monsters) plus pistols as above if in range. At least that’s with doing the maths in my head after midnight 😁 The rest is swings and roundabouts, to be honest. Arkanauts have better range on the skyhooks, worse on the pistols. They keep all their skyhooks longer, but cost more points. Thunderers can fit in an ironclad, arkanauts walk, but have more wounds, although are more unweildy as a unit generally, but are battleline ... etc etc. But hey, isn’t it great that we’re debating two strong unit builds? Personally I like thunderers for the ability to fit in an ironclad and to retreat from combat, as much as anything. Oh, and they look cooler 😉 (which is also of course part of the answer to “but why are you taking an ironclad anyway?”) But it’s also great to have a serious battleline option, as we have to take something, and it has been a common complaint that arkanauts don’t really cut it. In a unit of 40 with skyhooks, I would say they are starting to look like they do.
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Are you sure? It doesn’t say specifically that you have to have a full twenty models before one can be a banner. Are you basing your answer on some clarification in another FAQ, in which case I’d be grateful for the reference. I originally read it as “no more than one in 20” (so 1 at 10, 1 at 20, 2 at 30, 2 at 40) but I entirely acknowledge it’s open to interpretation as written.
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I agree, I think that khemist-buffed rifle thunderers are our best unit per se, even better than Endrinriggers, who are great but essentially one shot a lot of the time. The problem is that thunderers are not battleline, and therefore finding a combat effective battleline option is a real win.
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AoS 2 - Beastclaw Raiders Discussion
Baron Wastelands replied to Chris Tomlin's topic in Destruction
No, two frostlords are not a bad idea at all. I think the pelt is a decent pick, the offensive capabilities of a frostlord are not really in question. In my experience, 4 mournfangs outperform 2x2 every time. -
As @Mutter said. Also, you don’t really want to. 😁
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Personally, I think you should build fiends for range, or for melee. Given that the warpfire throwers are so short range, they belong in the latter category for me. So: Ranged: Ratling, windlauncher, shock gauntlets. This unit benefits from a warlock/arch warlock a lot, with e.g deranged inventor, vigordust injector, and sparks. The gauntlets may seem like a waste, but that’s a lot of wounds you can allocate before reducing your ranged capability, Melee: shock gauntlets, warpfire thrower, grinderfists. Grinderfists are not shabby in melee, and since this unit doesn’t benefit so much from buffs you can use the grinderfists to get closer quickly. Not sure 80 clanrats + hero is the “most fun” 😝 though it is undeniably effective at that points level. Think I’d rather field one of: a) master moulder, HPA, 30 giant rats b) warlock engineer, 3 stormfiends, 3 Jezzails c) plague furnace, 40 monks, 5 pcbs but then I always do prefer pure clans!
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A beautiful sight. That’s 1920 pts though - what about your battleline? 😝
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Don’t think there’s a quick answer! On the one hand, 3 ratling s guns, buffed by sparks, and a warlock/arch-warlock with overseer of destruction, all overcharging (more more warplead) will do about 30 wounds -1 rend on average. So there’s that. However, they will also die off quickly doing it, and anyway can be felled by a stiff breeze, which they will be given that they need to get within 12” to do it. Stormfiends on the other hand can’t specialise any more, but even one ratling gun fiend can, properly buffed, still kicks out an average of 13 wounds, while a windlauncher can benefit from the same buffs for 4-5 rend -3 wounds, and you get a whole other combat stormfiend who can take 7 wounds (with a 4+ save - plus another 5 on one of the remaining two, for 12 total ablative wounds8) before affecting the ranged offensive capability of the unit. So it’s comparing apples with carrots, really. Personally, a unit of 6 stormfiends with 2 ratlings, 2 windlaunchers and 2 shock gauntlets, while expensive, is one of my big wins of this book. Buffed by the right general, they are lethal to hordes and heroes alike.
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- skaven
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In some respects, they’re even better in a 1k game as they take so much shifting. It’s not just about how many you can get into base combat, it’s about how durable they are for the points cost, and how long they can maintain a decent combat frontage. personally, I’d prefer a 2nd tyrant to a gargant, as the gargant can be very hit and miss (literally!).
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I’d take them both - the plaguclaw also has slightly longer range, is slightly cheaper, and doesn’t blow itself up over time. So against hordes in particular, it’s not bad. Try them before you hack one apart 😊
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In a pestilens list, absolutely. In a mixed skaven list, they are about equally effective against hordes on average (~4wounds with -2 rend, -1 battleshock so potentially 1 more runner vs ~3.5 mortal wounds) though the wlc is better if you have an engineer to overcharge it (~7 mortal wounds) and straight better against units of less than 10.
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Couple of things - while Thanquol is a beast in his own right, you don’t really gain any synergy with a Skryre army, and you actually lose the potential for some good synergy by not having a Skryre general. An arch warlock with with a vigordust injector can make a unit of ranged stormfiends (say, 6 with 2 ratling guns, 2 windlaunchers and 2 (shock) gauntlets) absolutely lethal when feeding them a spark and deranged inventor as well. As your list is also stormfiends heavy, I think you almost need these to make them work. The other way to run stormfiends currently (IMO anyway, and if you want to run in 3s) is close range, say 3 with 1 projector, 1 grinderfists (to get close to begin with, and not shabby in melee), and 1 (shock) gauntlets. Not taking Thanquol would also allow you to take more bodies/toys - consider some acolytes for objective camping and another WLC, as these are always better in multiples. I’d take out Thanquol and at least one of your engineers (probably 2, or 1 and the bombardier), take out the grinder team (fiends can move themselves now, and don’t forget gnawholes), add an arch warlock, another cannon, and maybe either 3 more stormfiends (bulk at least one unit to 6) and 5 acolytes, or add 20 acolytes and another warpfire team, hiding the warpfire teams among your acolytes and use the blob to go horde hunting, while your stormfiends deal with elites and monsters. Lastly, under no circumstances make your bombardier the general. He’s a suicide unit, that risks all for big payoff until he blows himself up!
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You could do worse than a harbinger or lord of plagues with 20 Blightkings for 800. Maybe 1 unit of 10 and 2 of 5. Then to get to 1k you can add a unit of plague drones, since mobility is what you will lack. Alternatively, get the drones into 800 - something like: Harbinger, 10 Blightkings, 10 Plaguebearers, 3 plague drones.
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Rolling dice never takes tactical thought. Surely the tactical thought involved is in choosing target priority, positioning, playing to objectives, etc? Sounds like a tactically well-played game to me; thanks for the write up @Kirjava13.
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See my post on page 34 of this thread for the numbers, but basically the admiral will consistently outdamage the endrinmaster on average. The key word in your statement is can. The endrinmaster is capable of much higher damage, but most of the time it doesn’t happen. Whereas the admiral has a solid and reliable (and slightly higher) output. Plus additional abilities and options if you’re not in melee yet.
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That’s all good advice. None of these units are horrible, just that there are slightly better options in each case (well, except maybe the gunhauler. It’s hard to know what to say about the gunhauler - it just isn’t what it wants to be). Instead of a navigator, take an allied caster. Instead of an endrinmaster, take an admiral. Or better yet take Khemists. Instead of Skywardens, take endrinriggers. And instead of ironclads ... well, I do still like ironclads, but they are very expensive. Arguably a frigate does much the same job, but cheaper. An ironclad can hold its own a bit more, which is what makes it tempting over the other two ships (and I mostly always run at least one, because IRONCLAD), but probably drains points unnecessarily to do so. And you can add Gunhaulers as orbiting shields for ironclads ... but suddenly you’ve got no points for troops to actually do the work. On a side note, the navigator’s ability to halve flying movement might just look a bit better with the increasing amount of flying around. Good anti-squig, anti-nighthaunt, anti-flayers, etc. Anyone tried running him recently?
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Just to clarify, @j0lt‘s question was what to avoid, @Luzgurbel‘s answer was what to include! 😁Don’t avoid rifle thunderers buffed by a khemist, they’re really good. As for what to avoid, it’s more certain expectations to avoid than certain units. Don’t expect your big metal gunships to be particularly tanky or shooty, for example. While they can do both of these things a bit, their roles are more subtle, and you have to look elsewhere for your “big guns”, in my experience. I like ironclads, but I like them for their transport capacity as much as anything else 😆 On the whole though, nothing is terrible, and everything has its uses.
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To be honest, you have a viable and competitive pestilens list right there - I’d simply add a plague priest on foot, a foulrain contagion battalion, and run: verminlord corruptor, 2 furnaces, 1 plague priest, 2x40 plaguemonks, 1x 30 plaguemonks, 3 plagueclaw, foulrain contagion. 1980pts. Run 2 units of monks with a furnace in them, the third with the corruptor. Foot priest back with the catapaults. Think that’s better than trying to screen your monks with clanrats in a mixed list, tbh. In a mixed list, I’d start with 2 x 40 clanrats, and at least 20 stormvermin. Then add whatever toys you like from there. *edit* adjusted as I messed up the points.
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Would say you have a good basis already. You have a strong pestilens list, the beginnings of a Skryre list, and a chunk of clanrats. If you want to play mixed skaventide, you will need more battleline, so maybe some stormvermin? And another block of clanrats. After that, some more rat ogors to bulk out the 2 from spire of dawn and a hellpit abomination will give you some more useful options.
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I would agree - although 2 HPA creates a nice 60 pt vacuum in a lot of my lists! Interesting that you use 5x10 rats, don’t you miss the horde (and horde bonuses) for 40? I spent a lot of time previously getting stormfiends into my moulder lists, because of packmaster + shock gauntlets. But now I can’t see the use of stormfiends without the Skryre buffs, so am turning back to HPAs and rat ogres. Have played a couple of games with Moulder Vanguard at the moment, and wondering for 2k whether to go heavy on rats or rat ogors, or mix, since 40 rats are interchangeable with 4 rat ogors, pointswise. Currently: Master moulder (rabid crown, horde master) 40 giant rats 4 rat ogors 2 x HPA 3 packmasters. For 2k I could just double this, replacing 2x3 packmasters with a master moulder, but I think I would prefer more returnable rat ogor packs than more HPAs, and flesh menagerie perhaps becomes worth it at 2k for the redundancy, although it is disappointing it does little more (besides no. of drops, extra artifact of course) than a single command ability can do.
