SwampHeart

That was a typo - I originally was running Supreme Sybarites but I didn't play with the Cameo. Just the Essence and Thermal Rider. Still had that variant's characters saved in my notepad (ended up dropping Supreme for 10 Extra Ungors and the Cogs at the last minute).

Different strokes I guess. I live in a high humidity area and I've never had and issue with the current GW varnish and honestly given that it takes all of about half an hour to Varnish my whole army I can't see this being a huge draw back. If you don't like the GW finish there are a ton of other great options out there.

*WARNING* Long post to follow So I had a chance to take the new book out for a tournament spin this weekend. It was just a one day, 3 round shindig at my local FLGS. We had a total of 16 people playing (including a bye buster). Simple rule set - realm artifacts in, no realm rules though (no spells, features, or command abilities). I was also able to get a copy of each my opponents lists so I'll be able to include that. My list was: Godseekers - Aqshy Keeper of Secrets - General (Speed-Chaser), Thermal Rider Cloak, Sinistrous Hand, Progeny of Damnation Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - Essence of Vulcatrix The Contorted Epitome - Soulslice Shards Infernal Enrapturess Great Bray Shaman -20x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungors -30x Bestigors -10x Seekers Depraved Drove -Chronomantic Cogs 1950/2000 *6 Drops, 129 Wounds, 39 Depravity Point Wounds Overall the strategy is go fast and to get into key combats basically on the first turn and start generating depravity as quickly as possible. With the cogs up you're getting anywhere from 18" to 33" from the Bestigors (avg. 26"), 23" to 43" for the Seekers (avg. 33"), and 25" to 35" for the Keeper (avg. 30") - the threat range is just unreal, unless your opponent wants to deploy 4 or 5" from his deployment edge its hard to stop this army from charging in the first turn. I was comfortable with the drop count - I can get out dropped by most of what does so isn't a big enough turn one threat to concern me. Round 1 - Scenario Total Commitment, Opponent Gloomspite Gitz Opponent's List The only terrain of note is there was a fairly large sized LoS blocking hill/rocky outcropping that was in the center of the table and a forest near my left objective was mystical. (I'm going to bullet point these games as I'm not a phenomenal written story teller) -I finish deploying first, my opponent has underestimated my overall speed and deployed either on the line or close to it so I choose to go first. -He has committed his big Stabba horde + supporting pieces & Hag to his right objective and his shootas/squig crew to the left. He puts his Loonshrine near his right objective -I deploy my Ungors, Enrapturess, and Demon prince on my left objective (across from his stabbas) and everything else goes right, I place the Fane about 6" in front of my objective (mostly angling to use it as a wall). -In the first two turns I manage to clean off his Squigs and Shoota side while he pressures my Ungor side. However I've set up my Ungors specifically to delay (keeping them spaced about 3.5" apart from one another) and I was able to plink some wounds off his hag with the Enrapturess. -On turn 3 I was able to bring the remaining Bestigors, Seekers, and Keeper to bear on his flank. -For the rest of the game he did a good job of killing a lot of my units, I lost all the Bestigors, Seekers, and Keeper but between my summons and just using my units to keep him pinned where he was he was unable to push to my objective until the bottom of turn 4 which put me firmly in the lead. -End Score was 17-12. My game plan worked out and I was able to use my superior movement to win the battle. Round 2 - Scenario Duality of Death, Opponent Idoneth Deepkin Opponent's List Terrain was fairly inconsequential for this game, there were two nice area ruins in the center of the table on each side about 6" from the edge. -My opponent put both Eels in the Ethersea, deployed his boats in such a way as to attempt to block me from getting to the objectives (this ended up in an argument during turn 1 because he was unaware I could simply climb over/into the boats). He stacked his Thralls towards the right (my right) objective along with 1 Scryer (not in the Sea) and his Tidecaster. The Eternal Guard were deployed in a forest with his Akhelian king towards the other objective. -I (knowing I had the first turn) deployed my Bestigors supported by the Epitome, Prince, and Shaman on the right and then stacked my Ungors, Seekers, Keeper and Enrapturess to the left. I deployed the fane just shy of his boat. -In the first turn I was able to get my Prince and Keeper to their objectives screened by Bestigors and Ungors. My seekers made a long bomb charge and wiped out a unit of Thralls to exert pressure. -He ambushed his Eels towards my Ungor Screen and charged and obliterated the 20 and 1 10 man but because of my positioning I was able to keep the last 10 alive. -During Turn 2 I didn't engage his Eels on my turn - to take away some of his high tide potency. I shot and magic'd them (Soulslice Shards is pretty good against Eels). I was also able to summon in a 10 Daemonette Unit to act a further screen for my left objective. On the right side I spread the Seekers out to block his Thralls and slow down his characters. During his turn 2 he did some serious damage but because of my screens (I had the Daemonette unit 3.1" away from the keeper so she couldn't get volted/piled in to) I kept both objectives through turn 2. -After his High Tide was over I felt pretty in control of the game, I slammed my Bestigors into one Eel unit and removed it and then slipped my KoS into the 2nd and chunked it down further. At the end of his turn 3 I still held both objectives and we called it there. I was sitting on 12 points with 2 turns left and he was out of Eels at that point. He likely would have taken my right objective in the next turn with his King and remaining Thralls but it was too little too late. -Final Score was 21-3 (we gave him holding the right objective for the last two turns as my model count was pretty heavily depleted at this point). -This game was closer than it looks, had he taken a double turn at any point it probably would have gone his way. But he couldn't pick up a priority roll and I know how to screen Deepkin so I was able to keep the teeth of his high tide out my flesh. Round 3 Scenario Starstrike, Opponent Skaven Opponent's List Terrain wise we ended up with an Arcane ruin in the dead center of the table and a mystical forest in my right corner. Other than that nothing that really stood out. -Before I start just a bit of whine here - why are Skaven so ludicrously cheap compared to everything else? -I set up with the intent to maximize seekers, Keeper, and Bestigors in this game. I supported the Bestigors with the Epitome and kept the Prince close to the seekers. I knew my only chance in this game was to move very quickly and crash his lines before he could establish control. He set up in a classic 2 towers set up with a clan rat screen in front of each and then had his Warpseer in the middle. He placed the cannons away from the Keeper and Seekers. His basically set his gnawholes up to be arcane terrain for him with no real intent to use them to move about the table. I set the Fane up basically as close to dead center as I could with the intent of hiding behind it where I could. -I took the first turn and engage in operation smash 'em to bits. It worked as well as could be expected, I was able to slip around one screen with a incredibly long Bestigor charge (they moved 31" in the first turn) to tag the big clanrat unit behind them. The seekers and Keeper engaged the other clan rat screen and blew it to bits. He in turn charges the keeper and secrets with the big plague monk blob, I did get super lucky and stopped death frenzy on them which was a huge boon. He killed all the Seekers and wounded the keeper badly between the plague monks and one WLC but she was alive with 3 wounds remaining. -The first objective comes down in the dead center of the table but fortunately I keep the turn. I retreat the Keeper out and over and straight into a WLC. I continue to grind his bell rats as well. My goal this turn was to get as much of my army in position to keep him on his half of the table as I can. Its effectively the only way I can win. -I'll summarize the rest of the game because it basically ends up being a pretty grindy game where he kills my Keeper, my bestigors, basically most of my army but I also manage to kill a ton of his army as well. The primary fight is at the center of the table, he has his Verminlord there who is more than capable of grinding off small units I put in to but I continue to summon into it and push Ungors towards it. -The 2 3rd turn objectives fell in places where neither of us could realistically push for them, mine was in an enchanted forest on the side of the table with the Bestigors who did an admirable job of crashing their flank, wrecking 60 clan rats and a bell before getting run over by the bus that is Plague Monks. His objective fell in the center of his side of the table and given how he won his flank he was able to take it with his plague monks before obliterating my Bestigors. -Final Score was 20-18 my win, I held the center objectives on turn 3 and turn 5, for a two point lead over his turn 2 and 4 holds. Once everything was tallied up I took first place with my Depraved Hedonites of Slaanesh! It was a great weekend and a really good time playing the army. A few key takeaways and I'll leave you alone: -The Bestigors are unreal, they hit like an absolute truck. They die pretty quickly but if you can line up that first punch it can be crippling. -The speed in this army is unreal, the real reason I won my games was the ability to dictate the pace of play. I kept the action where I wanted it all weekend. -I really liked Cogs in this list to add to the ability to just keep my foot on the gas. -Hedonite Summoning is a really potent tool box, I'd like to expand what I currently have (30 Daemonettes, 2 Seekers, 1 Exalted, 3 Fiends, and an Enrapturess) to include a few more choices. -I almost never found myself in a position to toss my used up Essence of Vulcatrix into the Fane for the bonuses. Not sure if I positioned it wrong (I used it to block LoS/create lanes more than anything) or if that's just not a consistent strategy. Maybe next time I'll take a different item.

So you had a chance to use them this weekend at WarhammerFest? Your overview seems quite a bit different from what I've seen from others who had the same opportunity.

I'm going to take a leap of faith on this one and trust GW. I have a big tournament coming up at the end of July and I'm taking Slaanesh (with a lot of Beasts of Chaos) and I'm going to use contrast at the start of June to get the army table ready (the only standard I paint to anyway) - that'll be roughly 2 months from start to finish. Maybe it'll look terrible (probably not that far from my current paint skills), maybe it'll look better than what I normally do, we'll find out!

The better buy would be 120 Ungors for 30 points less but yeah generally BoC offer some really impressive tools to HoS. I do think you still have to think about hero choices for depravity but the one thing beasts do well is cheap bodies.

Bestigors also run and charge, its what the musician does for the unit.

They're faster than daemonettes by a minimum of 4". You have to bring a character for Depraved Drove so you bring a Great Bray Shaman who has an aura +3 Move buff and the Bestigors get +1 to run and pile in moves from their banner. The larger base is a negative (harder to bring the entirety of the unit to bear) but speed wise they outpace daemonettes.

Different strokes for different folks I guess - I think the new KoS is an absolutely amazing model, probably one of the best GW has produced in years. I've been mostly working on getting stuff together so far, built an Enrapturess and Epitome last night, waiting for pay day to get my Keeper. I'm still not 100% sure on my hero load out, my only set in stone choices are atleast 1 Keeper, 1 Great Bray Shaman, and 1 Epitome. Also if you haven't assembled your Epitome yet I recommend a ton of dry fitting, especially with the big tentacles. They're not a bad fit but the instructions aren't super clear on exactly where they're supposed to go on the 'stand'. I figured it out by putting together basically all the tentacle sub assemblies and then just sort of slide fitting them until they all locked together. Its a good kit but the instructions could be clearer.

You're speaking my language here - I love the list and I'm excited to see how it works out. I think it takes hue advantage of the speed of HoS and gives you a lot of firepower. My only concern is if you don't do enough damage with that first haymaker you're going to get absolutely pummeled in return.

I've been using it to boost an Enrapturess, gives her re-rolls plus she now generates 2 DP a turn (1 for being an Enrapturess and 1 for the MW she takes from the Fane). Its free and I like the magic defense and DP boost from the Enrapturess so the Fane seems like a natural spot for her hang out.

Just as a heads up for everyone GW updated the Fyreslayers FAQ again this morning. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/age_of_sigmar_fyreslayers_errata_en-1.pdf Designers Commentary is unchanged.

I don't know that they're wrong? Without dragging back the conversation from the last thread a unit of Daemonettes in Epicureans will kill 22 models assuming a unit with a regular 4+ save with no other saves to speak of (which is actually a pretty rare unit these days). Against say GGRs they'll kill 17, against 30 Pbears that drops to 14 (-1 to hit hurts). Obviously with double fight you can effectively double those numbers (give or take for possibly reduced models fighting due to space) but realistically screens are a solid answer to our out put. I say all that to say I agree that taking the Thermal Rider cloak is a solid answer, I've also had a lot of success with a generic daemon prince as well. This I don't agree with, one of my regular opponents is a good IDK player and while Ishlaen are sticky they're not sticky enough to not melt against a KoS. One 6 from the Claws is enough to make the unit quickly begin to wither.

It looks like 3 "primary" Keeper builds have evolved thus far: -Invaders Tank - Skin Taker, Sinistrous Hand, Progeny of Damnation, <Insert Choice of Defensive Artifact> -Pretenders Combat Monster - (Pick 2) - Strength from Godhood, Hunter of Godbeasts, Strongest Alone, Silverslash -Godseekers Acrobat - Speed-chaser, Thermal Rider Cloak I'm curious what other set ups people have tried, how they've worked, and waht other 'arch-typical builds' you think there are.

So you're telling me that BoC is on the same tier as FEC? Because that's how I read that. I play BoC and I can tell you that you have exactly 1 chance of dealing FEC and that's the bull. Also you're telling me that you think FEC and Skaven are on the same level as GSG, FS, or HoS? Because again there is proof (actual statistical proof) that this isn't the case. If these are your opinions there is absolutely zero commonality between you and I because there is no world where FEC and Skaven are on the same level as the other books you mentioned. Yes I'm sure if I asked DoK players they'd tell me there is nothing wrong with the book. However I don't think they're the most objective group out there when it comes to assessing their tome's overall balance issues. I also literally just did the math for you on the changes people are suggesting for DoK - its a roughly 200 point increase. Also you're suggesting that the best solution for players who right now are getting demolished by FEC, Skaven, and DoK is to wait and hope they get a good book. Man that really gives those players hope.

Because this isn't happening and you know it. Not everyone is getting a Skaven, FEC, or DoK tier book. Yes some things need to be brought up but not everything that's been released since is on the same level as these three book. It is absolutely asinine to suggest people want DoK toned down out of jealousy of having a good book. A 100 point hag increase + a 30 point Witch increase is a result of a 200 point increase in most DoK lists which is actually a pretty reasonable approximation of where those things should be costed. If GW had shown that they are capable of getting most books at the BoK and FS level I might agree with you but they haven't. So some books need to be brought up but others need to be toned down. No one wants to wait 2 years for their army to get updated only to find out they didn't draw the lucky straw and get the next FEC.

Assuming they continue to use the GHB as a points adjustment vehicle rather than a rules adjustment one I don't see how armies can be brought up to DoK levels. The issues that create the gulf between DoK (and FEC) and other armies aren't just points. There are certain models in DoK that are undercosted, I don't think that's really debatable. Or are you telling me that 30 Wyches should be cheaper than 30 Daemonettes? I don't want DoK to be non viable but clearly some of what needs to be done involves adjusting points up to account for how effective the army is at current. If they want to use the GHB to adjust army rules then I'm fine with bringing other armies up to DoK levels but that isn't what the GHB has been thus far.

So what non DoK players have been having to do since 2.0 came out?

Morsarr going up to 180 per 3 won't make IDK unplayable and neither will Hags at 100 and Wyches at 300 for a horde.

The issue is how little the HBs do back whilst costing over double the cost of the witch elves who are themselves immune to battle shock.

That's fine for when GW redoes the Battle Tome but that's not what they've done with GHB. GHB is for points adjustments and yeah it sucks that your ludicrously undercosted models will go up but then again it sucks for everyone who doesn't play DoK to play against 60 point hags.

Just want to say GW missed a huge opportunity with the naming of this box. It should have been called Twigs'n'Squigs.

Yep, some nice bonuses for BoC there. Honestly Slaanesh is looking like BoC 2.0.

This is correct - you'd take The Depraved Drove and (assuming your whole army is in the battalion) you can now choose either Hedonites of Slaanesh or Beasts of Chaos for your allegiance abilities. Right now Euphoric Killers is a fantastic ability (one that also really helps out Bullgors) and Godseekers looks to be rock solid as well (just adding more speed). Right now my main thought process is Depraved Drove (Bray Shaman, 3x Min Ungors, 30x Bestigors) supported by Ssyl'Eeske for the fantastic command ability (re-roll 1s to hit within 18" and/or immune to Battle Shock within 18"). I'm expecting this to be roughly 1k points so plenty of space to add in either more HoS or BoC pieces as needed. Obviously this is just my first 'idea draft' and I'll need the book to make a better decision. I suspect they will. Without getting too salty they don't want 'literally no brains to play FEC' to have any form of counter play. @Televiper11 100% - in Desolating Ungor Raiders become a very valid and serious hammer for the army.

Slaanesh is looking VERY different, sure you won't get artifacts or traits but you're getting access to a lot of their buffs because they say 'CHAOS SLAANESH'. The idea isn't ti run pure BoC as HoS but instead to cherry pick the best BoC options and take advantage of the Slaanesh buffs.