PJetski

They'll probably post them once we get closer to the release Edit: here's a tweet from Tyler Mengel

I don't disregard your opinion, or think it lesser to mine. Im trying to have discussions about the game with the rules the way they are written, and your way of playing the game is not in alignment with the discussion I am having. People want to know how to win games as Stormcast and cite the collected data as evidence that it is impossible to compete with the other top armies. I am saying that the stats don't tell the full story and Stormcast are capable of being the strongest army, but it may involve using units and strategies you may not want to use (a problem for ALL armies!). The problem I see with any Gavriel list is that it spends too many points on melee units + Gavriel + CP, Sequitors are a surprisingly bad unit (I have explained why I feel this way many times in this thread - check my post history), and there are better delivery mechanisms for Evocators that don't lock you into a terrible Stormhost. Immortal Stardrake lists look good on paper but the Stardrake doesn't do enough damage to justify its cost without Smoldering Helm but losing the protection of Ignax's Scales means you almost auto-lose to many lists that can push significant mortal wounds (like Skaven, Stormcast, or Hermdar). I think the top 3 are Astral Templars (10-15 Evo + 4 Ballista), Anvilstrike (10 Evo + 9 LS), Celestial Vindicators (6 Dracoline + 4 Ballista). It's hard to rank them because they all have stronger and weaker matchups. #4 and #5 are a little different, and much more dependent on your meta. #4 is a 6-8 Fulminators with proper support (Staunch, 2x Incantor, Heraldor, Castellant, etc.) If you are in a shooting meta then this is probably the best Stormcast list because it ties down the entire enemy army and just doesn't die to anything, but also has the ability to retreat and charge to another combat if needed. If the GHB makes the right changes I think this list (or a variant with Desolators) has the potential to rise to equal status with the top 3. I think #5 is a variant of Anvilstrike that goes all-in on shooting by swapping the Evocators for a Ballista core. Double tapping Longstrikes are threatening enough, but having a ballista drop to support that from turn 1 is even more devastating. If it wasn't for the risk of being significantly nerfed with bad Realmscapes in Ulgu & Aqshy and Total Commitment preventing deep strike, I think this would be a better choice than the regular version of Anvilstrike. Many of these lists utilize the same "good" units, and I agree that it's a problem. I don't like that the best way to play is to use the same core units in almost every list. The Stormcast battletome sucks because it doesn't offer enough viable options and I really hope the GHB has cuts for most of our bad units. I don't think it would take drastic measures to open up a lot of options, small tweaks to point costs (especially Battalions) and some different battleline choices (Dracoths, Palladors) would blow the doors wide open.

The "events" deck from Dreadfane could be a very interesting addition. They could add a shared neutral objective deck that can be scored by either player, or some kind of environmental effect like "Rain - You must reroll one Fury dice when making Range 3 attacks"

Gavriel and Stardrakes aren't even in the top 5. You are missing a lot of lists, and then making a lot of erroneous assumptions. Anvilstrike is the most unique of them all, but they all utilize different stormhosts in very different ways. Every army has "bad" units and "good" units. I agree that Stormcast have far too many bad ones and that they get carried by a handful of strong units... but that is true for all other armies. Skaven have a battletome full of trash units and get carried on the backs of a handful of strong units. Idoneth with their eels, FEC with terrorgheists, DOK witch aelves, Seraphon thunderquake starhost, Nurgle GUOs, LON with grimghast, etc.. I would like to have a game where every unit and every Stormhost is viable but that will probably never happen because they don't just design around a single game type, and some rules fit into Matched Play better than others. You are free to play with whatever rules you want, but if you want to talk about relative power in a game then you have to be talking about the same rule set. It is impossible for us to even have this conversation because you are playing by a different set of rules so we have no common ground to start a discussion. Finally, I find it hypocritical to discuss how to beat Skaven armies cherrypicking their best units while condemning the same action with Stormcast to be "abuse" or "derivative". Calling it "abuse" is really peculiar; it makes it seem like you are trying really hard to justify playing a weak army on purpose by demonizing anyone playing the game in another way (in this case the way the rules are written 😂). You can play however you want, but you shouldn't expect changes to a game played around the world to suit your strange self-imposed houserules.

How can you have a discussion on the strength of a faction if people are just taking whatever units they want that fit their fluff? Does faction strength even matter in that context? It would be more productive to make your own balance with friends than try to impose how the game should be played by others around the world because you are choosing to restricting yourself in some arbitrary way. Also, there are more viable competitive Stormcast lists than just Anvilstrike... It was only one example, and I already explained why I used it as an example so I'm not sure why you are beating that dead horse.

There's nothing wrong with this, but I would say that you are arguing in bad faith if you say that your entire faction is weak because you choose to artificially restrict yourself in this way... Most Stormcast units suck and every reasonable person would prefer if they didn't, but that doesn't mean Stormcast are a weak faction.

I agree and I hope people don't misunderstand me; I think Stormcast are a half-baked faction and we need rule changes for 80% of our units. That said, there are still some key units that can make some really powerful lists, and Anvilstrike is just one of them. Stormcast have a bunch of lousy units but the same can be said about Skaven. If Skaven are considered a strong faction when they bring the same half dozen units then I don't see why that argument wouldn't apply to Stormcast as well. I try to be as general as possible with my advice but sometimes you need to use specific examples in order to get concepts across. It's unfortunate that bad units exist in any army but hopefully they can try to fix it over time. Thankfully we don't have to wait too long between each generals handbook.

Playing against Skaven is all about target priority. Anvilstrike is about laser precision to cut your opponent down at the knees. If you can keep your Longstrikes untouched then you will win the game, even if they are on the objectives first. Skaven with Vortex are the main reason why I bring 2 Incantors - two guaranteed turns of defense against Vortex (and there's no guarantee they make the cast value 8 roll) will give you enough time to shoot down the targets you need. Highest priority is to kill their ranged units that can reach Longstrikes. In the situation you described you should be killing their Plague Claws first. The most damage a Plagueclaw can do to your Longstrikes is 6 and that's a very unlikely result but you want to make sure it doesn't happen. Deploy out of their range and then teleport your Longstrikes into range to shoot them down, and make sure your army moves up to screen for them. Once the catapults are dead the Skaven player must engage you in melee or they'll just keep taking crippling blows with no ability to recover. This is where the Aetherwings step in - when used properly they buy you a turn (or sometimes two) and give you time to shoot more and get the charge you want with Evocators. You always want to fight on your terms - don't let the rats dictate the pace of the game. Second priority is the objectives. Rule of thumb: you can afford to lose the objectives 2 of 5 rounds, but you must be able to hold them for at least 3 of 5 to win. It is preferably to give up objectives turn 1 because it puts your opponent in a position to give you optimal shooting. If you can, position your Liberator screens such that they enemy can't finish their pile-in on the objective so all they accomplish from charging is putting themselves in range to get hit back by Evocators. Third priority is support heroes, but it really depends on what value they add. You need to plan ahead - it's not worth killing a Hag if you aren't planning on killing the Witch Aelf block in the next turn. Lowest priority is usually the enemy melee units. Heavy hitters can be tied them down with Aetherwings long enough until you clear out the threats to your Longstrikes and let your Evocators get in position. Playing against FEC is very simple - Terrorgheists should be blocked by Aetherwings and Liberators, then shot/zapped down on your turn. Once the AGKTG are dead there's nothing left to contest your firepower. Anvilstrike is not an easy list to play, but when you figure out all the nuance you'll find it can handle anything your opponent can throw at you.

It sounds like you are describing a very specific situation - could you give me more context? Which units are doing 20 mortal wounds? Why are you letting those mortal wounds happen to your key units? Between deep strike shooting, Aetherwings stopping charges, and dispel scrolls there shouldn't be anything in the game that can hurt you that badly if you play around it correctly.

Low body count is a weakness but I have never found it to be a game-losing hindrance. I don't waste time trying to compete with somebody about cramming more bodies onto the same objective. With Ballistas/Longstrikes Stormcast have the power to wipe units off objectives from half the board away and then leisurely walk on them - after 2 rounds of that kind of shooting the enemy has been crippled to the point that you can have a squad of 10 Evocators walk through the enemy army without taking a casualty. Why are you sacrificing 10 Liberators if you can get the same effect on the state of the battle from sacrificing 5? Why run Sequitors if they die the same as Liberators but cost you more points? Plague Monks are cheap but they're also slow and die in droves - once you kill their source of battleshock immunity they run away just as easily as they die. You shouldn't be engaging them directly in any kind of prolonged combat. Ideally you can shoot them off the table, so you don't suffer any of the mortal wounds from their deaths in combat, but if that's not an option you need to kill them on the charge. This unit should not be a problem unless you run a melee focused list with little shooting, and I don't think that has ever been a viable way to play Stormcast. Stormcast are a very strong army but the power of the faction is not as obvious as "run forward and hit stuff" like most other armies in the game.

The grass isn't actually greener. The herdstone battleshock immunity almost never comes into effect because BOC are far more aggressive and the aura doesn't grow fast enough to keep up with that. Screaming Bell is a 200 point battleshock immunity aura - warpseers are far better at giving the same effect. You cant look at what every army does better and then ignore the unique abilities that Stormcast have - the ballista drop, Evocators both on foot and on Dracoline, double tap Longstrikes, the game-breaking mobility of Aetherwings, and on-demand teleporting are all amazing tools. I'm not a fan of the newest battletome because it has failed to make 90% of the units worthwhile, but Stormcast are still a very powerful army... easily one of the strongest in the game. Stop looking at the global win rates (the sample size is too small and biased to draw objective conclusions) and start looking at what you can do to improve your own win rate.

I found the 2nd unit of Aetherwings (one for each flank) and a 2nd Incantor (two dispel scrolls!) to be invaluable tools in properly locking down aggressive matchups. I don't have any problems with any alpha strike lists In control v control matchups the 2nd Aetherwings are amazing for sneaking onto objectives.

Speed of Lightning

If Hearthguard Berzerkers and Auric Hearthguard are going to stay at 120 for 5 then Liberators should be 80, Hunters should be 100, and Judicators should be 120

It's already arguably a better option than Longstrikes so it wouldn't be a big change 😂

I can't see Longstrikes getting a point bump. 180 points for 6 wounds that does 6 damage max per turn. If they want to nerf Anvilstrike they should max Longstrikes at 6 instead of 12, but then everyone will just swap to Judicators...

Every army can use them, assuming you have a WIZARD

Endless spells don't "swap ownership", they are treated as friendly models to all players.

The Soulscream Bridge subtracts 1 from the bravery of enemy units, but endless spells count as friendly units to both players. Huh?

Hurricanes do a lot of damage (if unreliable at 4+/4+) but the Evocators kinda fill that same role of just doing a lot of damage. I prefer the tactical versatility that comes with the longer range and hero sniping potential of the Longstrikes. How does your area rule on Rapid Fire in the hero phase? If I wanted more bodies and more shots I would take 20 Judicators instead of 9 Longstrikes - the average damage is the same, but Judicators spike way higher.

frostfire has the core of the list right. You definitely want Aetherwings, they are an invaluable tool. I bring 2 units to my 2000pt list but I would love 50 points to spare to bring a 3rd unit.

We better get a new Seraphon book this year...

If youre going Lofnir you definitely want to take some Aurics, that command ability is so insane

With all the Nightvault cards released it seems like there's a lot of great stuff for both aggressive and defensive Farstriders. The former seems fairly easy to build, with cards like Keep Chopping and Stand and Shoot. Has anyone put together a good passive/control Farstriders? Stand Firm is a very interesting passive card that can be scored immediately.

Trying to balance a game only with math is a foolish endeavour. It's a great starting point but there is much more to consider than what you can get off a spreadsheet. Furthermore, balance should not be defined by having all units within some arbitrary range of power of each other. It's okay for some units to be stronger than others because there are many other factors - two armies could have the same unit but use them in totally different ways. Balance should also come secondary to creating a fun and interesting game. Chess is perfectly balanced by nature of being symmetrical, but also pretty a bland and boring game.