swarmofseals

Just popping in to say that I love the new warband's look. It's the first Warcry set that I really like (although the Untamed Beasts are OK and there are a couple of great models in the snake one, imo). I can only hope that it will be cheap enough for me to pick up some spares as there are a ton of parts on those models that I want to steal for conversions. The Gotrek model is nothing short of stunning. I really am not a fan of Dwarfs, and the only Warhammer dwarf that I've ever really been fond of was my Ironbreaker and my wife's Runepriest from Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (RIP Grumpbot and Abbess). And yet I immediately want that Gotrek model.

@Mirage8112, I'm going to reply to a couple of posts here. First of all, you've made me reconsider some things and I'll get to that later. But I think that you are overstating a few things. Your proposed counter to Gristlegore is just not reliably workable on a couple of levels. First and foremost, if you kit out your Durthu to beat his AGKoT, he isn't going to just attack you headlong and sacrifice his most powerful piece. Durthu can teleport around, but a competent opponent isn't going to position in a way that allows you to teleport and charge his AGKoT, and he certainly isn't going to charge you. He is going to zip around with his 14" flying move killing every other model in your army. Your Durthu can only cover one objective, so it's not like he is forced to confront you... and his AGKoT will *far* outdamage your Durthu. Even if you imagine the best case scenario and your full health Durthu gets the charge against the AGKoT with both the Harvestboon command ability and Arch-Revenant command ability AND the AGKoT doesn't have his extra 5+ save or a defensive artefact AND you are close enough to a wyldwood: The sword will do an average of 15.12 unsaved wounds and the talons will do an average of ~1.75 mortal wounds and 1 further unsaved wound. So that's around 18 unsaved wounds on average. It's enough to kill the AGKoT most of the time, a pretty significant % of the time you will fail, and with the chalice it can heal up from near lethal damage. And that setup is Magical Christmas Land. There is no way you can reliably create that scenario. With the extra 5+ ward save you're only averaging 12 unsaved wounds, so the AGKoT will survive most of the time. If you don't catch him near a wyldwood, you're looking at another big reduction in damage. TL;DR - a smart FEC player will not fall for the doppeldurthu trick and doesn't need to engage you at all, and even if you do you're only a small favorite to kill it in one go even assuming an ideal set of conditions that won't be true most of the time. ______________ OK, all that said, I do think you have a reasonable point about the choice of turn. Sylvaneth seems well equipped to play in a way that can adapt well to either going first or second. Opponents may want to take the first turn to block you from adding extra wyldwoods, but you then get the protection against double turns and may still be able to hit them on the first turn if you want to. If they make you go first, you can alpha strike and/or deploy your forward wyldwoods in a better position for bunkering. The fact that most of the alpha options involve teleporting anywhere means that you can deploy in a way that works regardless of the turn order. ______________ Finally, I think it might be worth exploring the different alpha strike options. In dreadwood anything can alpha, and Tree-Revenants now seem like a really good alpha strike option in any of the wargroves. They are still not very efficient on paper, but there are now some great tools to scale them. For all of us that have wanted to have a reason to field a unit of 30 tree-revs, I think we may now have one

I've been digesting all of these changes for a bit now, and I'm coming down on the side of @Kairos Tejedestinos, at least for top level competitive play. I think the book seems really well rounded and there are some nice buffs and combos in it. There are real problems though that people aren't focusing on. There are two huge, huge nerfs that aren't getting nearly enough attention. The first major issue is the interaction between wyldwoods and unit buffs. Keeping things like the Dryad buff and Durthu's buff active while also fighting over an objective will be much more dicey now and will entirely rely on dropping futher wyldwoods close to objectives. Given that competitive Sylvaneth lists currently rely on the defensive efficiency of Dryads supported by the Frostheart Phoenix debuff aura (which is no longer an option), I think this is a pretty significant change. More important, however, are the battalion changes. Limiting drops is probably the single most important factor in competitive list construction. The main reason Sylvaneth was able to stay tier 2 was that it was super easy for any Sylvaneth army to be one drop. Now that isn't possible, and it's actually pretty difficult to be low drop at all. You can take care of your battleline with Outcasts or Forest Folk but that's about it. Any other battalion is going to require at least 3 further drops. I think it's going to be difficult to make a good Sylvaneth list in anything less than 5 drops, and even then that's a pretty big stretch. You could maybe do 4 if you are comfortable with your eggs in one basket. It's possible that the turn choice or battalion rules will change at some point, but until they do this is really going to hold Sylvaneth back. There are certainly some cool and powerful things that Sylvaneth can do. The Alpha Strike potential is strong. The availability of unlimited teleportation abilities and huge bonuses to charge gives you the ability to strike fast in a lot of different places. A lot of options for this have already been mentioned, but I'll also bring up the possibility of dropping 12 Kurnoths with the Dreadwood teleport, or a unit of 30 Tree-revs either with +2 attacks in Harvestboon or the suite of bonuses from Winterleaf. The damage potential of both of these combos is massive. But how is it better than Deepkin eel spam? The new treelord stomp ability is also really powerful, although it's not effective against Gristlegore (during their turn they get to fight first before you can stomp). So you could build around a big grove of trees and aim to disrupt combat order. But can't Slaanesh just do the same thing but far more effectively? You could try to lean on the increased efficiency of some of the new warscrolls (Drycha, Durthu, Spite Revenants), but Skaven and DoK are just that much more efficient. Your efficiency is on a similar level to Beasts of Chaos, but they can easily go under you on drops now. So far when I look at this battletome I see a decent amount of cool stuff and it'll certainly be good enough for casual-competitive play, but I see nothing that it can do that other tomes can't do better, and I really don't see how it competes with DoK, Skaven, FEC and the like.

That is my guess too but I'm hoping to get some concrete info.

Does anyone know what the base sizes for the new endless spells are? I'm particularly interested in Lauchon. Haven't been able to find the specifics anywhere.

What you say about him playing army lists that he doesn't even like simply because they are good is kinda sad, IMO. There is enough competitive diversity in this game that most gamers should at least be able to find a competitive list that they also like! That being said, I think it's important to recognize that you're creating a false dichotomy between "winning" and "having fun". There's a continuum of correlation between the two. For some players, winning or at least trying to win is an important part of having fun. For others it doesn't matter at all. I think others have pointed out convincingly that this is a case of two players with different tastes. In a perfect world, you'd both compromise. That compromise can look like one of three things: You each agree to alter your approach to the game partially so that you play more competitive lists and he plays softer lists, thus maintaining at least some level of competitiveness while still having "good games." I can give you a bunch of advice on how to achieve this in practice, if you are interested. You agree to mix up your games so that sometimes you play tournament practice games and sometimes you play narrative games. That way each of you takes turns playing the other player's preferred mode. You can get creative and bend the notion of what is narrative and what is competitive. A couple of ideas on how to accomplish this: as someone else mentioned, you can turn each game into a "match" where you play one game with the armies you bring, and then switch to the other side of the table for game 2 and play the other person's army with the winner decided by total VP summed over both games. This gives your opponent a real list-building challenge. A more labor intensive and more outside-the-box idea would be to create your own "competitive narrative" scenarios. The idea in this situation is that your "opponent" would be competing against himself instead of against you. Design a battle-plan that is intentionally asymmetrical. For example, you start with overwhelmingly more points and the goal is for him to hold on as long as possible. Or you get waves of unending reinforcements and the goal is for him to rack up as many kill points as possible before he is wiped out. In these scenarios you get to use whatever models you want (and take advantage of your large collection, and for him the goal is to design as mean a list as possible and beat his own high scores. Personally I think all three of these compromises can work, but they will require you both to buy in.

Any idea why?

I know that this is a bit out there, but I would re-introduce Tomb Kings as the first cross-GA battletome. The book would contain two allegiance packages: One faction of Order aligned TK that have generally regained more of their pre-curse consciousness, led by Settra and maybe Khalida (which could require some explanation or a ret-con). Focused on Hysh. One faction of Death aligned TK that are led by Arkhan, or possibly a different or new character. Focused on Shyish. Completely scrap all of the finecast kits and the really old plastic kits, so we start with the following: Tomb Guard Necropolis Knights/Sepulchral Stalkers Warsphinx/Necrosphinx Most "big" releases have been getting in the 7-10 kit range including terrain and endless spells/invocations, so I'll limit myself to that: Skeleton infantry/archers dual kit Skeleton chariots kit Melee/ranged Ushabti dual kit Necrolith Colossus/Hierotitan dual kit Liche Priest/Warlock hero blister Settra/Arkhan hero kit Khalida (or other secondary hero) blister Endless Spells/Invocations Casket of Souls/Suns terrain piece If they let me have a 10th kit I'd probably go for the screaming skull catapult. Each of the kits would be designed such that it could be assembled to reflect either of the two factions with things like headswaps, shield swaps or various decorative bits. Both allegiances would have access to the full roster of units, except the only the Death side would have the Necrolith Colossos while the Order side would get the Hierotitan. Most of the warscrolls would have wording that would change their functionality depending on whether they have the DEATH or ORDER keyword. The Order faction would be a priest faction with no wizards, while the Death faction would be the opposite. Overall the book would be written to push new design space and show off how subtle rules changes can alter the playstyle of a faction dramatically. The kits would be designed to create a stunning, fully fleshed out army that would be appealing to as wide an audience as possible while also maintaining an element of "backwards compatibility" so that they appeal to folks still playing 8th edition, for example. EDIT: I'll note that while I did end up cutting some cool units, I focused on cutting things that are redundant from a gameplay perspective. Sepulchral Stalkers cover the deepstrike/mobility plan just fine, rendering Tomb Scorpions, Scarab Swarms, and Carrion unnecessary. Horse archers and Horsemen are largely redundant with chariots, and chariots are far more iconic (and easier to design in a way that can be built to two different aesthetics with relatively minor changes). Necrotects and Tomb Heralds are unnecessary.

Any further clarity on Lauchon's base size?

(what sinksinksink said)

Again, focusing on battleshock is not really the main substance here. I doubt anyone is going to take this endless spell or debuff bravery with the hopes of causing a few more battleshock casualties. Mechanics that test against the target's bravery are much more relevant. As @Charlo suggested, the various Death factions have quite a few such mechanics. There are other factions that do as well. Whether any of these mechanics are powerful enough to warrant the effort and opportunity cost remains to be seen, but it's at least possible.

The kinds of alphas that Skaven and especially DoK could do were really limited. Skaven could theoretically use a gnawhole, but the enemy knows where the holes are when deploying and can easily block you from getting at anything tasty. There are some other options for tunneling, iirc, but they are also pretty limited and costly. Meanwhile, the only units with DoK that are deepstriking are the Khinerai, and they are really not very efficient. They are definitely VERY useful for tactical reasons, but typically you can't hope to wreck your opponent's main force on turn 1 with a Khinerai charge. And as you said, in both of these cases you are relying on cogs and charge re-rolls to get there, so it's really not reliable enough to count on as a main strategy in a tournament setting. Typically tournament players want to be able to get within 3-4" reliably before charging so that the chance of missing is really minimal. If you are trying to 5-0, you can't build your strategy around an alpha if you are counting on resolving cogs and still hitting a 7" charge every round. I agree that the shards are awkward to use, and that may mean they don't see play. I'll freely admit that. Geminids saw plenty of play though, and the upside of a few mortal wounds is a lot less than the upside of halving your opponent's movement. It should also be a lot easier to hit multiple units with the shards. This one will need testing for sure!

There are a couple of armies that can alpha now that couldn't before (like DoK or pure Pestilens Skaven), and there loads of warscrolls that can now be used to alpha that couldn't before. I've definitely thought up some spicy ideas to try with the boat -- I assure you the potential is there. Of course the ability to move after could easily get FAQ'ed away. I think you might be missing a little on the other two as well. I think the idea with the shards is that you set it up so that enemy units are already touched by the line. It's got an effective range of approximately 18", so it's pretty plausible that you can get at least one enemy with it. It triggers during each movement phase, so the enemy unit will suffer -1 to hit during your turn's combat phase. Then, assuming the shards don't move before your opponent's turn and assuming your opponent can't move during the hero phase, it will trigger again on those units at the start of your opponent's movement phase as well, halving their movement and giving them a hit penalty again. It's awkward but I think there is some potential there. You are absolutely right that your opponent will get a shot at dispelling it first, so it won't be reliable at blocking movement. But it should be pretty reliable at giving at least one enemy unit -1 to hit during your turn. The Horrorhast seems terrible until you remember that there are some factions that really benefit from bravery reductions, and adding an extra -1 or -2 on top of what already exists could make some warscrolls much better than they already are. It's certainly not going to do much in terms of battleshock, you are right about that. If it's super cheap I could see it having niche use. Also, it says "while they are within", so no need for duration. As soon as they leave the area of effect, the debuff no longer applies.

Unlike most abilities like this, I'm fairly certain you get to make a normal move afterwards. The boat should make its initial move in your hero phase, and it doesn't specify that you can't make a normal move later in the turn like the bridge does.

Just ran another test -- even if it's on the smallest base that I can possibly imagine (the 75mm oval, which is smaller than a skullcrusher base), you can still fit 40 25mm rounds within 3". I got 44 in 3" without optimizing too hard, so that leaves room for the prow of the ship to block a couple of models as well.

The unboxing article on Warhammer Community mentioned that the Forbidden Power book will have rules for Legion of Grief: "a new Legion of Nagash led by Lady Olynder herself who allow you to combine the terrifying might of the Nighthaunt’s full roster with Bravery-manipulating game mechanics, gravesites and more…"

Source/context? EDIT: Legion of Despair could conceivably be a translation issue for "Legion of Grief"

If you know your plan is to strike on turn one, then deploying in this formation is not a problem at all.

@Skreech Verminking @Greasygeek I suppose a lot depends on how big the model is. Here are some examples with a 105x70mm base: 58 25mm bases wholly within 3" (i'm sure 60 is doable) 30 32mm bases wholly within 3" 15 40mm bases wholly within 3" 12 50mm bases wholly within 3" -- this one is a little dicey and might be off by a few mm, but 9 is EASILY doable. So that leaves open all kinds of possibilities -- things like Tzaangors, Bestigors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Stabbas, Plague Monks, Boingrots, Stormfiends, Bullgors, Witch Aelves, Blood Sisters... the lists goes on. For some of these units you might balk at paying a model, but honestly that's a small price to pay to get a high offensive efficiency unit stuck in on turn 1. To me, something around 105x70 is the most likely base size. It could be a bit smaller (bloodcrusher size like you said) which would cut things down a bit. You'd still be able to roll with a big unit of Witch Elves, Plague Monks or other similar units, however. The base size could also easily be larger, which would allow nearly any unit to fit. EDIT: Looking at the pictures again I think bloodcrusher size is actually reasonably possible, and the fact that the boat stick out in the front past the edge of the base will cause problems as well.

These endless spells are definitely a step up in power level compared to the last batch (with the exception of the Horrorghast, which could find a niche role). Lauchon seems incredibly broken to me. It depends a bit on points cost, of course, but the presence of this spell (and at only a 6 to cast!) opens up alpha striking possibilities to a TON of units that couldn't realistically charge on the first turn before. The mere presence of this spell could warp the meta even more toward low drop.

While this would be really cool, I suspect that it'll not get access to all of the regular LoN units. You could be right though, it's speculation at this point. Hopefully we will get a preview this week.

To me if I can field a competitive army with mostly or entirely Nighthaunt models, that'll do it for me. I don't really care if I write "Nighthaunt" or "Legion of Grief" on my roster pad.

HUGE news for Nighthaunt today from Warhammer Community: "the Legion of Grief – a new Legion of Nagash led by Lady Olynder herself who allow you to combine the terrifying might of the Nighthaunt’s full roster with Bravery-manipulating game mechanics, gravesites and more…" While the details aren't clear yet, IMO the one thing holding Nighthaunt back more than anything else is that it just can't compete with Legion of Nagash's ability to recycle units. This could fix that.

Yeah, I can understand how this marketing is misleading. I don't think it's correct to think that these other games are really taking away resources from AoS though. I doubt they are not doing a battletome because of Warcry, for example. So it's not like the Warcry reveal would otherwise be an AoS reveal if it didn't exist. They could cut it up into a 30 min AoS seminar, a 15 min Underworlds seminar and a 15 min Warcry seminar, I suppose.

This is where the disconnect is for me, I think. I'm not sure why people think this reveal was targeted specifically at Slaves to Darkness players. The new models previewed seems to me to be targeted at players who are interested in Warcry. And then there is the GHB2019 preview which is aimed at anyone, with a big wink at people who are interested in smaller scale games. And the Underworlds preview part, which is aimed solidly at Underworlds players. I know a lot of people are anticipating a StD release because of rumors and the Darkoath Warqueen, and some people are concerned that Warcry is actually going to be the only StD related release in lieu of a battletome or larger kit rollout. Personally I doubt that this will be the case. Lets at least wait and see though instead of getting triggered at every Warcry preview. If some months from now GW comes out and says "Ohh yeah, no StD battletome. All you get is Warcry" then yeah, get upset. You'd have every right to. I'll dislike it too. I don't play StD now, but Chaos Warriors was my first army back in 5th. Personally, I think the humble chaos warrior is the most iconic thing in all of GW's fantasy history. It all goes back to Harry the Hammer. If GW chooses to abandon that history, it'll be a shame. But that's really not where we are at.