Dolomedes

So our birdboys got updates. I've got some pics of scrolls but I'm not sure if you're allowed to post them or not here. If someone can clarify if that's ok I'll post em. Big news imo is that enlightened on foot remain at 95 pts. They now have a 4+ save too. New rules are that enemies within 3" can't issue or receive commands, and if you're going second in the battle round they get a straight +1 to wound. I think these guys are looking super strong for us for their points. I've been thinking about Bestigor vs Bullgor comparisons lately, but now I think these boys are weighing in too.

For sure. For once we aren't the bottom 3 whipping boys. Now where did I put my wallet? 50 Bestigors is nowhere near enough...

Crikey, we're ahead of several factions! Top work lads!

Agree with you about Bullgors, but the Doombull is sweet! Usually it's the Razorgor that gets a bad rep for being a terrible model: BoC are long overdue a range refresh, but I don't think it'll be for a while, and probably not this year. A friend of mine that works for GW with the app teams says they're a little behind on their release schedule atm, and it's all hands on deck to get the DoT and Lumineth releases sorted for this year in AoS. The priority though is going to be 40k - some big changes are coming.

@Lord Krungharr Nice insight on Gors. The shield Gors seem worthwhile for 70 points. A question for you or anyone else that's running Gors though - are you still using them as screens in turns 1 or 2? Or are you holding them back so you can cash in on their rend 2 power spike after turn 3? I've always found using the 10 man Gor units as screens is really effective early game, but now they've got some added utility after turn 3, they're a little more reliable as late game objective cappers. Bestigors were always good if used correctly, but now they're bonkers. I used them in a game on Saturday, but I quickly discovered that sword wielding Kurnoth hunters are even more bonkers. Although Bestigors are super killy now, they still need a little bit of screening and micro management. I tend not to use my Ghorgons much because they're a pain to transport and can be inconsistent. Their problem has always been the 5+ save, a quickly degrading profile, and tendency to get focus fired because they're terrifying. The new monstrous action looks like it'll make them usable though so I'll try taking it to my next battle. I ran the Shaggoth with Gnarlblade in my game on Saturday to fill my monster slot. Turns 1-4 he camped the herdstone generating primordial call points by using Primordial Roar and wounding himself. I'd cast his healing spell after. That extra PC point is massive - reliably generating a chariot every turn is a powerful mechanic. Summoning Warhounds is also really strong if they have -2 rend, as your opponent has to react to it. On turn 4, I committed Shaggoth to combat with some Juggernauts that were trying to contest an objective. Shaggoth cast 'Sundering Blades' on himself and waded in. Shaggoth's axe was rend -4 (-1 base, -2 from stone, -1 from sundering blades) and damage 5 (3 base, +2 from Gnarlblade). In one swing he completely deleted 3 Juggernauts. For 155 points, I think it's fair to say that Shaggoth is probably undercosted for what it can do (summon 400 points then delete 300 of your opponents), and I think you're right about the incoming nerf. I've checked out some lists on honest wargamer and I still can't quite believe our win rate. Have we ever done this well? I haven't dabbled much in the additional magic options, but if I can get some more regular games in I'll flex into a box and try out a purple sun. I'm glad it's been upgraded back to it's previous glory of a truly game changing spell if it goes off. As you'll probably remember, one of our only reliable strategies in 8th was leaning into getting Purple sun casted because there was literally nothing else in our army book that could do damage!

I've been away from the world of Beastmen for a few months (life, summer etc), but I've got my first game tomorrow with GHB 2022/3. Whilst theory crafting my list, I've stumbled across the updated rules. As a die hard Beastmen player, I didn't expect any rules updates at all because that's just what it is to play Beastmen - I gave up checking. Fortunately my local GW still has a copy of the White Dwarf with the update in, so I'm off to pick it up. So it seems is that the herdstone is now disgustingly powerful with it's 'everything gets rend' ability. What tales have people got from the tabletop? What units have benefitted from this massive power upgrade? Are Gors worth taking yet? Give me your nerdiest meta takes - what works, what doesn't, what surprised you, what was a let down. Personally, I think the Bestigor brick in Gavespawn looks like it's back to being seriously powerful again. The mutating Gnarlblade Beastlord also looks like it should be making a return (rend -4!) . Warhounds and Centigors also looks like big winners from extra rend, as well as chariots. The ability to get extra primordial call points from monsters also seems huge. I take 3 chariots on my sideboard as they're only 3 points to summon - they can get right into the thick of things pretty quick (re-roll charges after summon), and make for great screens (4+ save). Has anyone had success stories with other summonable units?

I've only ever played BoC/Beastmen in AOS, so I don't have the opportunity to take one of these immortal save stacking units that people are concerned about. Even though I could ally one in via StD (Chaos Lord on Karkadrak with Chaos Sorcerer Lord), I don't want to, and here's why. In Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, the End Times let Beastmen armies take in other Chaos units as allies. The Beastmen/BoC balance was even worse in 8th edition than it is now - playing Beasts was pretty much a guaranteed loss. I jumped at the chance to get some units from other factions that didn't die immediately, and bought myself a Daemon Prince. Hero Hammer was worse in 8th edition than it is now - you could effectively write a separate list just for your hero's gear setup. After a couple of evenings of swatting over the books, I worked out how to make my Daemon prince practically un-killable. It was on a 3+ save, 4+ ward, -2 to hit, it regenerated wounds in combat, and it could heal itself more with magic. On top of all that, it was pretty scary in combat, and it would reliably kill most things it went up against. The 'Unkillable Nurgle Daemon Prince' wasn't far off some of the things we're seeing in people's tournament lists now in our 'hero hammer' meta. This. I took the 'Unkillable Nurgle Daemon Prince' for 3 games, then never played it again. Why? Because it consistently made my games unbelievably boring, and nobody enjoyed playing it. I decided to shelf it when it tanked a charge from a unit of 11 juggernauts of Khorne (they were terrifying back then), and held them for the entire game. Although I'd designed it with this opponent in mind (his unit of Juggernauts was crushing everyone in the local meta), it made for a rubbish play experience. Like most of you here, I don't get all that many games in. If I'm really lucky I could probably play a decent weekly 2k game a few weeks in a row, but typically it's more like two a month; one of which ends early or changes to 1k due to time restraints. I really don't want to waste the opportunity for a good game by sticking something that's basically immortal on the board. You know what will happen. Your game will be boring. The same principle works the other way too. If you've got a point and click MW spamming unit deleting army, your already limited games will get dull real quick. Furthermore, it will probably make you a worse player in the long run. If you get used to relying on your Immortal God-tier units, then you won't be paying attention to all the smaller interactions on the board that really decide games. You'll get in the habit of over or under committing. You'll stop thinking about the most important fundamental stat that wins games - movement. Before you know it, you'll end up losing to some upstart with a naff list containing 500 points of chaff to fill out the points requirement. These lists are usually whatever the latest army release is, and often they'll end up winning because they fluked some bizarre new mechanic. Before long, you find yourself rage posting 'This new faction is OP! It beat my God army!'. Obviously what I've written applies to filthy casual games - the tournament scene will be different. I think the lesson will be learned though, and although save stacking/MW spamming are the meta right now, it's a matter of time until the correction comes. Don't get caught out.

Nice summary. It's certainly something you'd have to react to if it was thrown your way.

For sure - it's a suicide Alpha Strike. Go for a low drop list and send him in to delete something. It could easily be a turn one 'Bring it down!' or 'Linebreaker'. Of course, you'd probably want to set it up so it doesn't just melt to 'Unleash hell'. Depending on the points cost, and your opponent's army, I think that's a powerful tool to have in a list.

I'd put it at high 200s, maybe 300. Take one as a suicide alpha strike and use it with this:

This is what you use on the Breaka boss. Note it doesn't say you can't move and charge after setting up again. That's getting in turn one if you roll a 4 inch charge, and it's likely to clean out whatever it goes into. Pretty scary alpha strike.

Agreed - if you can get it in, it'll wreck face. Problem is getting it in with only 5" move, and it inevitably being a potential pin cushion. If Kruleboyz get access to movement buffs, it could be terrifying. Pack them movement debuffs and some extra shooting lads!

This x1000. Could we get away with saying they're Harpy Tzaangors? There's a chaos book coming in October time, which has been confirmed by the GW release schedule. Apparently some people in the know have been posting pictures of goats or something, so it's been wildly speculated that it might be our time. https://spikeybits.com/2021/09/rumors-the-next-battletomes-for-age-of-sigmar.html More's the pity! I wasn't running them in ambush, but when they pop up after a hero dies, they still function in much the same way as an ambusher and pin down enemy units.

It would make my day if you could find it - that was one of the best Beastmen related posts the internet has ever seen. I've pondered this too. I really don't like the Tzaangor models, but it's a dam good warscroll. I'm pretty sure the Tzaangor is bigger than a Bestigor, so it might look weird if we just stuck wings on a Bestigor. They're on 40mm bases. Here's the closest I can find for a decent conversion possibility so far: Obviously these are far too sexy, but the wings and weapons would make for decent proxy bits. After a good look at the sprues, I can see the tails and wings would be pretty easy to stick on something else. Bestigors wouldn't make a good switch as their legs apart power stance with wings and a tail would make them look like they're out to just poop on their enemies. Just noticed the Bestigor box still comes with square bases, and it hasn't been repackaged for AoS. The 'Start Collecting BoC box is being pulled from stores too. Some might say I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'd say that I've just pretty much confirmed that we're getting new Bestigors, Pestigors and Khornigors in a month's time!

Can't remember the name - I was hoping you'd know I think he made them with sprues, a box of Ungors, a box of Gors, and a box of Warhounds. Hounds were Tuskgor Proxies, the Gors and Ungors were the crew, the sprues made the chariot's frame and the wheels he got from toys. It was under a post that said 'Sprue you!'. I think Chariot spam might well be on, so I'm going to look for some cheap options for mass production. I caught this interview - it was a real good listen. It's nice to see that BoC players have been up against it for so long now that we're actually getting pretty handy at list writing to compensate. DO battleline is definitely a solid pick - shame they're out of stock. If you go for the Shaggoth as a general, Bestigors arn't battleline, so I'm thinking of playing around a bit more with them. A 20 stack still does me well for getting an objective when supported. I might try units of 10 with Bray Shamans in Gavespawn. I've had success with ambushing Gors and their re-roll, but I think people will soon get wise and screen it off. Warhounds are indeed great. As are chariots. I've not played Centigors yet, but I suspect they are too. I think Grashrak will be a solid pick now - his spell is improved this edition as it not only improves hit rolls, but it also opens up the opportunity to use all out defence/inspiring presence if it goes off, saving command points. Coupled with another unit, they're an easy 'Ferocious Advance' too (3 units running within 3"). I'm not so keen on my warherd stuff in 3.0 - it's only ever died horribly. The Khrone DP and Belakor is neat, but I always feel a bit dirty taking stuff like that in a beasts army. It's like taking Tzaangors - ew.

It would also be silly to release a bunch of new rules then FAQ them twice shortly afterwards, but these things happen I think you're right though - I doubt it'll be StD. It's unconfirmed what we're getting in October, but my punt is that it'll be a broader brush stroke than just a new BoC book. Nurgle are before us in the pecking order at the moment, and they have some bonkers old rules that are borderline broken now due to old rule wording (no 'wholly within', and look up 'Blades of Putrefaction'). Not much of this was addressed on 3.0 launch. BoC still get mentions and have their own narrative, although it's a bit indistinct. Our scrolls have had some updates lately, so I don't think they've been entirely forgotten. I can't see us getting a full new model line though - maybe 1 or two kits. Maybe we'll get something like a Nurgle/Chaos allegiance book, with updates to all the existing Nurgle stuff, Clan Pestilens, and some BoC updates. I'm thinking that it'll be part way between a battletome and a broken realms book. Obviously this is purely theory, and it's entirely likely that I'm way out.

Nice. Get them cows blending stuff lads.

Perhaps it's the difficulty in categorising standards in this hobby that makes it attractive. It won't be long until people show up and say 'it's all subjective', 'play what you want', 'do what you and your friends happy' etc. I think painting standards are usually group dependant. I used to live in Manchester, and I had 2 GW stores within 20 minutes of me (Stockport & Arndale). The Manchester city centre store was famously competitive. People who played there regularly would have exquisitely painted armies, and on games nights, I'd feel nervous showing up with my mostly primed army. On fantasy nights, there were definitely 2 tiers of player - the noobs and the veterans. I'd never play the guys with the fully painted armies. This was back in 8th too, when an army sometimes consisted of hundreds of models. If I was gaming in Manchester, I'd franticly get paint on my minis days in advance, aiming to just be 'table top ready'. I never won a game in that store, but I did enjoy playing there, and the high standards certainly made me the player/painter I am today. The Stockport store could not be more different. It was very much a 'Timmy' store, and most people would show up on games nights with fluffy lists. People would regularly play unpainted minis just to see what they did. Loads of players in that store barely did any painting, but they were constantly hobbying away at the table, usually building or just chatting. I had just as much fun in Stockport as I did in Manchester, but the setting and the painting standards were miles apart. Element games was only 25 minutes away too, and on tournament days I'd sometimes go and check out some of the best painted armies in the country. My jaw routinely dropped to the floor when I saw what I thought were the nicest minis I'd ever seen in my life described as 'rushed' or 'barely table top ready.' What some guys were doing in a week I hadn't achieved in 2 to 3 years of hobby (that's when I found out what an airbrush is). I was lucky to have multiple groups around me and live in such a good spot for hobby. Ultimately, I found the paint standards categorising pointless, as it would completely change depending on what day of the week/store I was in. This also applied to play standards. Manchester's store was about as elite as it gets, but I'd still enjoy myself and the challenge of getting myself up to high standards. Stockport became my regular store, and I'd have the most fun there playing the dumbest stuff I could come up with in bonkers narrative games. 'Gatekeeping' never existed. I thought it did at first, until I changed store. The group of people you hobby with sets your standards. Someone who's got 10 years practice at painting will be intimidating to someone just starting out, but the fact that there are people in the hobby that can set these high bars is what will keep people inspired day to day. What I'd like to know is this: Has anyone here ever seen anyone refuse to play against unpainted armies or ones that aren't some sort of 'table top ready'? I've never come across a single instance of this in my life, even though I convinced myself that this existed at one point.

Physical store? It's still up on the site.

It's even stranger to us Beastmen players. Kragnos is clearly Ghorros Warhoof, and should be leading a band of drunk Centigors. Unless of course, there's more to come. I would picture an Ork mountain God of Ghur to be more like a rogue idol. Something like this but more monstrous and less rocky. Maybe a rogue idol with wings or something. It's odd because they literally could have done anything. Kragnos is practically a God Beast. Why stick with the centaur, something that's thousands of years old, when they have a space to create a brand new unique IP? There is a chance that GW just completely forgot that they've already covered this ground - they have a habit of forgetting BoC exist

I've been reading up since I made that post, and unfortunately, the Harbinger won't buff them as they lack the 'Mortal' keyword. You'll still have to screen them. The Glottkin is probably your best bet for giving Bullgors a bit of survivability, unless you're taking screening units from StD or BoC (the Nurgle book doesn't really have proper chaff screen units). The 'Fleshy Abundance' spell can give them an extra wound, 'Mystic Shield' can be cast on them, and the Glottkin's 'Horrific Opponent' rule can give enemies stuff -1 to hit. The Glottkin could function as an anvil to the Bullgor Hammer. There's also the +1 attack buff from the Glottkin, but I'd recommend using 'All out attack' on them for +1 to hit instead. As mentioned, that 4+ to hit on Bullgors is their biggest downside, and if you're committing them, there's a good chance you're sending them in to something scary that you really want dead. There's always Grashrak's spell for a +1 to hit though, which might leave you with a command point spare for all out defence. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos_grashraks_despoilers_en.pdf

I've bought a couple of the add on books in my time, and I usually find them to be a good investment. Sure you can just get the rules online, but sitting down and reading the books themselves too is usually worth it. The battleplans are often worth playing too if you've got a regular gaming buddy and you want to switch up from the GHB. Some of my best games have been when me and my buddy were playing through the Realmgate wars books each week. With shipping prices rising and tomes going up in price though, we'll have to see what happens with these add on books. £25 for one is a good buy, if you intend to actually read it, use updated rules, and play a couple of the battleplans. If things get much higher than £30 though, I'm not so sure, and realistically I just wouldn't get the same enjoyment from them as an app as I would from the book itself.

Pencils are your friend. There's usually space to update a warscroll if you've come across an update. I write the updated points in my tome too. The trouble I find is allegiance stuff - there's usually a lack of space on those pages. Of course the other issue is not wanting to get scribbles all over your fancy battletome. Then again, we get paint all over our expensive models, why not apply the same principle to your tome? As I mentioned earlier too, if you write down a scroll update yourself, you're much more likely to remember it.

This makes me very happy. This is 'Ghorros Warhoof', a Centigor hero from the Old World. His club is called 'Mansmasher'. His retinue of Centigors would spend their days charging around getting drunk. Ghorros apparently fathered hundreds of Centigors. I agree that Kragnos doesn't have the 'Beast of Chaos design', but it's pretty obvious where the character design for him came from. If Centigors got a redo (which they might get as they're finecast and obscenely expensive) it wouldn't be too large a stretch to see them become aligned with Kragnos. Personally, I don't think it'll happen and they'll just become more chaosy instead.

Agreed. Personally I see very little thematic difference between Kruleboyz and a standard Brayherd, and as mentioned in some other post I made somewhere, Destruction are certainly stepping on the toes of the Beastmen Aesthetic. SoB (monster spam), Kragnos (clearly a Centigor) & KruleBoyz (swamp horde Brayherd) all have elements barely distinguishable from Beastmen. Personally this is why I think if there's a BoC redo, it will be more Chaos themed. There's already god marked Beasts (Slaangor, Tzaangor), so I think it's likely we'll see more. They've done it before by giving us god marked battalions. in the End Times Beastmen could take marks, and in the fluff there's numerous god specific Beastmen Herds (notably Nurgle in Ghyran). If there's Beasts that are not God related, my hunch is that they'll be more mutated than what we have now (hopefully leaning into a Morghur Aesthetic). Dragon ogres still have a pretty unique theme that could easily be expanded if the will to do so is there. This. A dark children of the forest Aesthetic is what drew me to Beasts in the first place. I've always been a fan of the old wood elves too. They don't necessarily have to be bad guys, just angry creatures that live in the forest and don't like trespassers. Problem is it's quite an obvious Tolkeinesque aesthetic, so GW probably won't go that way for IP reasons. It's much easier to just make them Chaos tainted.