Ganigumo

don't forget 'ardboyz rally on a 4+. Ironjawz also have a TON of wounds if you run a list without a maw-krusha. Don't know that it would be broken but 30 blocks of ardboyz would be super hard to shift.

Do OBR need an update just to overhaul RDP? Its not like anything actually changed, they couldn't use the generic CAs in aos 2 and they still can't in aos 3. I understand every other army got access to a system closer in strength to what ossiarchs had but the mechanic isn't broken or anything and obr are in a very healthy place from a balance perspective based on the statistics. I mean I'm kind of expecting a second wave at some point too but mechanically it seems fine?

If this is true gitz and BoC better get some very aggressive changes in the winter FAQ, they're both sitting at around a 30% winrate...

I can't say anything about the stormcast half, but gutrippaz are definitely overcosted by 10-20 points.

its gonna be a long month until they drop that update

Are there any rumors as to when the balance update is coming? I know GW said december but now that december is here I find myself checking the community site every hour 😂

Horrors are 5.1 points per wound after that increase. Still some of the cheapest wounds per point, if not still the cheapest. The new pink warscroll is balanceable by points I think, its just a blob of efficient wounds it doesn't have any of the other jank it used to which amplified their durability by insane amounts. At the new cost they're around the same as savage orruks in aos 2(60 wounds for 300 points, 5 points per wound with a better save). It might still be too much but if the game can handle stuff like savage orruk, and grot blobs work it can make this current warscroll work.

I've been waiting for a decent update on them since 2019 but apparently spider riders were perfect.

the 20 man blobs are mostly to try to get off a good alpha with the kruleboyz WAAAGH! while fitting into battle regiment. running hobgrot screens and other damage dealers like mirebrutes may be better, but you're increasing your drops by doing that and won't be able to fit into battle regiment.

I've been eyeing varanguard as an option myself, 3+ save, elite(so they can issue commands to themselves), they can hit hard sometimes, and shield of fate will make them super durable. Daemon prince is a solid option for a killy hero, and Sorc lord on manticore is pretty good imo.

I mean Orruk Warclans was a good example of what we can expect, we had an example of a good transition, an average one, and a terrible one. Ironjawz: 10/10 nothing of value lost, interesting new builds, better designed roles for the units, good internal balance, good competitive potential Kruleboyz: 5/10 cool new faction with some neat tricks, lots of overly restrictive rules, terrible subfaction balance, questionable internal balance, some heroes fail to find a niche, restrictive listbuilding, maybe some competitive potential Bonesplitterz: 1/10, pretty much exclusively lost abilities with little to make up for it, terrible subfaction balance, poorly pointed, nerfs to solid units turning them mediocre. Limited competitive potential. I know I'm being a bit hard on bonesplitterz here, the icebone and wurrgogg ability is definitely good, but those don't really open up new strategies like the old battalions did and so the army as a whole just feels like it had a chunk carved out of it.

@Chumphammer Looks like a fun list, but it might be worth sticking some Sneaky snufflers and a shaman in there (or maybe take the arcane tome) so you can get the Squig Lure spell. Snufflers give out +1 attack to Moonclan units, so squig herds are a valid target, and +1 attack on those 25mm bases is very nice.

I assumed a 4+, but 4s and 4s with no rend is basically no damage, especially when you consider that only 4s are doing any non mortal damage. before saves its 23.91 damage, so the difference between a 4+ and '-' is only ~2 damage.

@whispersofblood I agree that playing for objectives/battle tactics should be the priority/focus of a list and that units in different armies aren't always directly comparable, but the issue with KB is that measured across many different factions they end up falling short. The army has a lot of tools to handle different threats, but the problem is none of those tools work against armies actually good at doing what the tool is supposed to answer. Gutrippaz aren't durable enough to hold an objective against any proper hammer, and don't have the damage output to force tarpits off objectives (and without buffs can struggle to even clear screens). Boltboyz have good damage and threat projection, but have paper thin defenses so if anything gets the opportunity to shoot/cast/charge them they vanish. Gobsprakk has no bonuses to cast, and a once per game 3d6 unbind. average of 3d6 is 10.5, average of 2d6 is 7, so even against a caster on a +3 he'll struggle to dispel with his once per game ability. He'll work fine against armies without strong magic, but armies with strong magic don't really care about this guy. He's also got paper thin defenses. Hobgrots are pretty good as far as chaff goes. At the event I was at recently (I played spiderfang) most armies were either using a super powered monster hero (like archaon or SoB) to basically auto complete battle tactics or putting out absurd levels of damage to just cripple/table the opponent then control/complete battle tactics uncontested. KB don't have a strong enough hero monster, or enough speed/damage to play to that meta, or enough wounds/durability to try to counter it. I had more wounds than your list, with plenty of screens and was basically tabled by the top of t2 against DoK (literally tabled at the top of t3). The army desperately wants to be a proper mixed arms force, but all of the other mixed arms forces in the game can build lists that are legitimately strong in certain phases, while kruleboyz is just middling in all of them because of lack of speed, output or durability. @dnusha 20 gutrippaz with full buffs do around 22.22 damage on average, Also charging them is nearly always the right decision. If you're a tarpit you can take the hit and deny the opponent their poisons in the next round of combat. If you're an actual hammer you can severely cripple the unit before it fights back. 20 Gutrippaz will die to any competitive hammers at the moment too. The "true bulk" of the unit (how many rend-0 wounds to kill it) is 53.3. Mega Gargants sit at 52.5 and are the unit everyone builds hammers to try to kill in a single round of combat, but even if the gutrippaz survive by a bit they "bracket" harder than the gargant does.

I think this is pretty much the case, and its what is holding the army back. Boltboy spam is too fragile so we need something a bit more durable with some damage output as well, and the only option is gutrippaz. Our monsters fit into that role a bit, but don't fit well into battalions and aren't *that* durable.

Rumors I saw were Gitz, Ogors, BoC, no clue if there's any truth in them but Gitz and BoC make a lot of sense. Doesn't look too much like a spider leg but I'm gonna hope anyways.

The current aos meta really rewards overwhelming damage, and 20W in a phase isn't enough to rip through the dps checks tarpits demand. 10 pinks have a real chance of holding 20 gutrippaz for the entire game. Its enough damage to deal with most high save targets though, and might be enough to take a mega gargant down if its been softened up by our ranged attacks. My big beef with poisons and elixirs IS that it can't be given to units in melee. Its a restriction that basically only affects gutrippaz. It wouldn't break the army if that restriction was removed either, it would open up gutrippa heavy builds in a big way. I think those lists are trying to fit into 1-2 drops aren't they? Which is why 1x20 grots is better than 2x10 hobgrots since the reinforcement points are used up on the boltboyz/gutrippaz. The strat is to use waaagh! To get a powerful alpha turn but this is definitely something that can be played around through positioning (or killing the general if they have the range/output). Gutrippaz make sense here because nothing else fits in the battalion with the KB keyword and decent melee output except maybe a rogue idol? GW definitely taxed weight of wounds for some reason. Gutrippaz at 180, ardboyz at 170, and savage Orruks at 165 definitely feels wrong. When you consider the amount of points you need to invest to make gutrippaz do work, and the limitations on their abilities they could probably drop 20-30 points. 20 Gutrippaz actually costs ~465 because you'll need a shaman to buff that unit, and likely a sludgeraker to pump it further (but at least the sludgeraker will do other work as well).

a unit of 20 gutrippaz, with a shaman backing them, and a sludgeraker, are putting out about 20 damage as mortal wounds. that's good damage if you're hitting something with a good save characteristic, but is pretty weak for what you're paying against something with a low save. There's a ton of stuff in the game that can put out that kind of damage with less investment too. 20 Grave guard (280 points) with literally no support put out 13.67 vs 2+, 18.22 vs 3+, 22.78 vs 4+, 27.33 vs 5+, 31.89 vs 6+/-. Sure they've got 1" less movement, and are only 1 wound each but with the gutrippaz and the shaman its a difference of 185 points. I'm highlighting this to show that even with these buffs the damage isn't higher than what other armies get. For the same cost 9 boltboyz put out the same damage at range (with far less bulk and easier access to the buffs) The problem with the poisons and elixirs is that since the math scales so hard with # of attacks, and nothing else, gutrippaz are awful without buffs to compensate for it. There really isn't any reason for it to not work in combat except specifically to make Gutrippaz awful at playing the attrition game, which is further enforced by their skareshields also not working if they're in melee. But if Gutrippaz aren't good at attrition, what's the point of them (in a competitive sense)?

Yeah the poisons and elixirs requirements seem designed specifically to hurt gutrippaz, plus the wierdness with their shields and the point cost all make it feel like they don't want you to play them. The biggest reason to take them as a damage dealing option is because sometimes you're gonna need something that can take a hit and still put out some damage. Shooting, magic, etc, can absolutely crush boltboyz because they're only 2 wounds on a 6+. Usually those armies are going to also be able to take out our shamans/sludgerakers pretty quickly as well though so its a bit of a moot point.

The shaman buff amazing on gutrippaz, and still decent on sludgerakers. Gutrippaz do around 1 mortal per 3 models without buffs (and their non-mortal damage is abysmal ~ 1 wound per 3 models before saves), shaman doubles that to 2 mortals per 3 models, and with a sludgeraker too its ~1 mortal per model. Unbuffed gutrippaz are nothing but meat, and are more expensive per wound than hobgrots. It might not be the optimal playstyle but if you want gutrippaz do to anything you kind of need that shaman buff.

I am very happy this rumor engine wasn't solved with yhe spider warband. It meams there's still a chance for a spiderfang update!

@Skreech Verminking Spider riders could definitely come down 20 points as well. Dankhold Troggoth should be between 145 and 155. One Dankhold Troggoth is very comparable to 3 fellwaters/rockguts in bulk and damage output. The webspinner on arachnarok is fine at 295, but the other variants need to come down far more. For reference here is the damage on a skitterstrand (the goblin spears are pretty negligable anyways) Keep in mind this is on a unit that constantly has issues getting around terrain (6.2" base, 8" move means 1.8 inches to move and get over terrain...). I'm not quite sure what they should be at, the damage is very similar to rockguts though (unbuffed rockguts win by about .5 damage against all targets, with buffs the arachnarok beats buffed rockguts against 2+ & 3+ by a very small margin). so maybe in the 160 range for them.

I bet this is a new marauder kit and this is the unit captain. It looks great.

Yeah it was a good time, my first big event and spiderfang are my favorite army. The people I played against were all really nice people too. Spiderfang need a lot of help, since the warscrolls are weak, but it mostly comes down to 2 things: An actual hammer unit 8" move is just not enough on a 160mm base so the arachnaroks need a proper movement increase The first could be solved in a bunch of ways, Making the goblin attacks all poisoned would up damage overall although might not be the healthiest unless they lose an attack on the bow, alternatively a new unit (maybe "non hero" version of the scuttleboss), and/or the arachnarok could/should have its damage pumped up to a respectable levels. The second is just a playability thing that could be solved in a bunch of different ways. 14" move, always runs 6", run 2d6, etc. As it is now spider riders make good chaff, and are pretty fast so they can get where you need them to go, the only change they would need if the army's other issues are addressed is a point cost decrease and maybe a unique rule to make them more interesting. Although I wouldn't be against reinventing them to be more than just speedbumps.

The shaman does make for an amazing support piece at least. My MVP was the arachnarok I dedicated to mostly casting. He even did work against Kroak managing to get off arachnocauldron and hand of gork so I could teleport some spider riders behind the terradons I was targetting with broken ranks to block redeploy.