LuminethMage

As long as this is not in real life, I wouldn't care. Don't let other people decide on what you want to do, especially not people on the internet. That's exactly what some of them want to achieve with their comments. If it's a problem within your local gaming group, then it's more difficult of course. Personally, I dealt with it by not coming to forums like this here that often anymore, and stick to friendlier (for me) places. It's not that it's like this everywhere even on the internet. You have a very vocal community here sadly which just doesn't like LRL. I think you are totally right, this kind of gatekeeping and constantly bitching about play styles and armies you don't like is bad for the hobby as such. It's by no means only a problem for LRL players.

The LRL unit Wizards are a bit weird, because they are only conditional Wizard, and it’s only the unit leader, not the unit, that’s why it’s not mentioned in the keyword chain at the bottom. If you think you have to limit yourself, then just go for it, otherwise talk to your group and explain that if you had to follow that rule you can’t play Path of Glory, which clearly isn’t the intention, and ask if they let you include Vanari units. I’m sure they have no issue with that.

If you can get the box now, it's good to have it. It might get re-packaged and updated (maybe also including the Horrorghast etc.?), but who knows when. The ES are made in China if I'm not mistaken, with current shipping issues it might not be on top of GW's priority list to update the. The rules are out as you say (in the GHB, not Core Book though, later also in the App), so if you buy the current one, there shouldn't be any problems - besides it might be difficult to get the Omens (Horroghast and 2(?) other Endless Spells later if they put them all in one box).

That can happen now, but yeah ES can be the solution. Even something that isn't that great like a Burning Head - 20 points that might bring you some additional MW. And then you are down to something like 1950 and can speculate to get the Triumph. Or take Lifebloom/Shackles/Horrorghast to fill up the list. Chronomatic Cogs should be also useful in many LRL lists.

Same here, both games were decided very late (the last at bottom of 5), and could have gone both ways. Having more to do in your opponents turn (redeploy etc.), the battle tactics, new battalions, hero and monster actions are all good additions to the game in my view. Would really want to know which armies and what lists made for such a bad game. There'll still be imbalances of course, especially until some of the really old battletomes get new editions, but generally speaking AoS 3 feels better to me than AoS 2.

The lions on the shrine are awesome! : )

It depends. For example, my Bladelords are just like that. No rend, no MW, but they can do a ton of attacks on the right targets, similar to the numbers of WE. The Bladelords were pretty good in my last match for example (which was a rematch again against SBL). If you have enough attacks you still do damage. The way I play LRL (a lot of MSU Vanari plus Scinari) means besides MW I usually only have a low number of 3/4/0 1 damage or 3/3/-1 1 damage attacks. You usually end up saying something like this to your opponent: 3 MW and 1 W at no rend. Or 5 MW and 2 W at -1. It just seems to be difficult to say anything as a LRL player here without being jumped at. That's why I said that my one game experience should be taken with a grain of salt. In my first match the BL didn't get much play, they did though in the 2nd. We played another match last Saturday where I had 15 Bladelords altogether. And they did ok, because I managed to get them into the right targets. Zombies, Skellies, Gravegard and a Vampire Lord. 5 of them got absolutely deleted by Gravegard though 😅. A bit more in detail: They were able to do some damage, like 10 W out of 40+ attacks (2 (all out attack)/3/0 1 damage) for example against 4+ save with 6 ward. Which is probably more like Witch Aelves would feel. 10 W doesn't sound great in terms of AoS2, but your opponents also often field smaller units, so it might be enough to take out or at least cripple an opposing unit. I can see WE-like units having issues against certain armies, like Stormcast, but then DoK also have access to MW causing units. I think the new editions wants you to mix your units, and none being the best choice for everything. It doesn't want you to bring a whole army of WE, but mix-in some of your Snakes for example, or use Spells/Prayers to get your MW. Isn't there a prayer now which can cause MW on a 6? That might be just the right thing for your WE (even if it's not reliable). We all will have to test around a bit what works. I also understand that some factions will have problems at the start, because the rely on units which might be less useful than before or do not have access to MW, but I hope these will be fixed.

Just a few photos from another game between LRL and SBL (the Ghouls are Zombies, and the Ghoul Kings Vampire Lords). Edit: Last photo is a duplicate and I can't fix it, sorry

Depends, Avalenor does more though, the -1 to hit bubble is good. He also counts as a hero for list building, which might be what you need to get one or another battalion. An additional artifact and/or CP is good. I can see people paying the extra points just for that, and slot Avalenor in a list as their 3rd hero. Doesn't even have to be with other Alarith, or a full Alarith faction. My guess is that a lot of list will end up with 3/4 heroes, and it's not guaranteed that a Mountain Spirit and then likely another cheap hero to fulfill the limit will be better than slotting in Avalenor. The field is smaller, we have access to Speed of Hysh, which you likely would still have even in a mostly Alarith build. Of course you won't always get it cast. Let's see. I think Avalenor might be just worth his points in comparison to a MS. Probably depends on personal preferences and the kind of list you want to build. I gave up on that. It's pointless. Many of us tried, I also thought it's possible to change some minds, but it's 100% not here on this forum. Luckily it isn't that bad everywhere.

We have to find out, but probably not. The price tag is very different now, and -2 rend likely more valuable than before. On the other hand Avalenor has hero actions, which the Spirit doesn't have.

Awesome! Nice work!

Oh ok, just another LRL are OP rant I don't engage in those anymore, leads to nothing. Whatever floats your boat there, have fun playing AoS3!

Yeah, if they don't change the reach on SG, mostly 5s with maybe a 10 is probably the best way to use them. @Andalf I've looked a lot into our Twins, I played with them in AoS 2 a lot, I think they are one of our most fun units. The teleport ability is hilarious and can win you games, or really make things difficult for you. It's so much fun. But they cost around as much as 2 of our other heroes, which makes them quite difficult to fit in. For example, with my current list, I'd lose a Windmage, a Stonemage, 5 Bladelords, the Rune of Petrification and one enhancement to gain them, 10 Warden and a higher chance of a triumph in exchange. Which I'm not sure is worth it (I'll test it though : ) ). If you like them though, there might be some good builds using them and Eltharion for example. Or like you say in Iliatha. You can give them Flaming Weapon as one of their spells, meaning they start with 2 dam on the big sword and it goes up to 6 dam in BR 5 : ). The beam and melee damage they can do from BR 4 onwards was already really good in AoS2, so I imagine AoS3 will be really awesome.

Like I said, it was one game, and the LRL I had (100% Vanari and Scinari) tend to rely on MW anyway. Plus I ran into a lot of 3+ save units on the other side. It's probably not every game. On the plus side, units might not always just get deleted outright. I do think MW will be important, but generally speaking I found the game very balanced, and it's also good to have some tanky units in the game. I had serious problems taking down his Radukar for example - which is good. It might be an issue for lists like mine - because outside of MW, LRL often just do 0/-1 rend, 1 damage attacks. That's how they are build. I can see it being a bit like this against enemies like Stormcast, but then I think that's their thing, low models, hard to take down. (You can build different list, like with our mountain spirits, and those might get more popular over AoS 3). It was pretty good to see that we had still both around half of our armies left start of BR 5, although we were constantly fighting, I prefer that to what happened often before - at start of T2 nothing much left if one side got the double, or fastest end of 3, basically everything was over. I could see low MW output armies struggle against some opponents though. Concern about that isn't totally unverified in my view, but right now I'd look more on all the exciting new things we get, and see how it goes.

Well, you were wrong, the Khorne reviewer stayed in-character and had apparently skipped class (or head-butted the memo) on how to mention all the new cool Command Abilities and focused on the real Khorne classics with hot name like RAGE OF KHORNE!!! LEAVE NON ALIVE!! and BLOOD STAMPEDE!!

I don't think so. Some will do this, but it's a big risk. If your opponent has a way to get them engaged in any form, you are in big trouble. PoH is also by no means guaranteed. It's really not, and I play Zaitrec with the Twinstones (which will be changed to have a much weaker effect it rumors are true). Especially in AoS 3. I couldn't get Twinstones out until T3 last game for example (I did cast Lambent Light though, and PoH on one unit of Sentinels). I'm sure there will be still people running 30 or 40 Sentinels, but more likely split in units of 20 and 10. There will be some people who base their strategy around keeping one 30 block (or maybe even 2 x 20) of Sentinels guarded and try to win the game that way, but I don't think that will be the main way people will play LRL. I just can't see that being the overall strategy for most LRL players. In tournaments I don't know, might depend what the FAQ does to Iliatha. If they can use their double CA on all the new CA they might become a really strong option for tournament players based around Warden and Sentinels. But in general - judging from LRL Reddit, Discord etc., people have all kind of builds in mind. You can see this here too (if you look through the builds above). My main build has 2 x 10, and my alternative has zero. But hard to say right now, if it turns out that for some reason 30+ Sentinels are seen to be a "must take" in AoS 3, this could change again of course. Right now I wouldn't expect it to be the main build.

I really enjoyed my first AoS3 game. Liked almost all of the changes they've made. Miscast is not one of them. In our match I had 5 and my opponent one. I used 3 Aetherquartz for the re-rolls, 1 time the free re-roll from the Shrine, and 1 time my Windmage ate 2 MW. My opponent one was the most impactful though - he sadly re-rolled his casting roll into a miscast (playing Vykros) and put 2 MW on his VL, which gave me the opportunity in my next shooting phase to kill him, fulfilling the kill-the-Warlord Battle Tactic. I think the way its implement isn't good. Miscast for me are one of the few things which I don't like about the new edition. I understand that they want to make magic more difficult which is fine, I still hope they come up with a better idea on how to achieve that.

I've played one game with my Lumineth against Soulblight last weekend (incl. set-up and a short pause it took us almost 7 h 😅), and found it more interesting and fun than 2.0, which I also liked. Of course one game isn't enough to judge anything, but - I really like the Battle Tactics, the first few are easy, but once you have done those, they sometimes pose real trade-offs and make the game more tactical. - I like the new core battalions, being able to customize your army for power or flavor without getting everything in one battalion is good. - Grand Strategies on the other hand, felt anything but, if you do not take a risky one on purpose. - I like the smaller board size, the action started on turn one without one side having to do a hail-mary all-in assault style of attack like often before. And there was still enough space for maneuver shenanigans. - The hero actions and CA during your opponents turn are a great addition. I can't say anything about the Monster ones, because I didn't have one (and didn't cast Metamorphosis, although I had all kind of evil plans around that pre-game but totally forgot about them during the game, lol), and killed my opponent's single Monster before he could do much with it, but I'm sure they are also impactful. - In our game we both didn't have an abundance of CP, and also had to use them well. My "I deny you to issue/receive CA" spell felt really powerful. If your army has such an ability, it's 100% worthwhile trying to include it. I felt already over the first game, I naturally started to include CA into my stats when I planned to attack or defend something, and if you then can't do it - it's really changing the outcome. - Obviously Unleash Hell won me the game. ... Actually it only came up once in the game, it was pretty impactful (helped me bring his VLoZD down to 1 W (not on itself)), but so are the other CA. My opponent used "Redeploy" very well for example. - This might be exaggerated due to the armies we played (LRL generally relying on MW and Soulblight having a lot of high armor saves), but with all the ways to get high saves (or at least ignore rend on a 50/50 save chance) means it felt that it's all about MW. The rest is mostly for cosmetics (a bit overstated). - I don't think miscast is designed very well, but again that might be because of the lists I play. Overall though, I think 3.0 is great, and Blood Knights are scary : ) Edit: We played according to the GHB 2021 rules and leaked points. Battleplan was Feral Foray.

I was expecting this, but you can easily see how some of the data is what it is. Like Slaanesh - 1 % means it's an outlier because someone played well. I was thinking about adding an explanation, but I have done this in the past and it doesn't help either, people will just have another objection, and my post was already too long as it is. It's the newest data we have, that's why I used it. Most of the other data analyzers don't bother to update their data anymore so close to AoS3. Have a look at what the data generally shows - who's in the top? Most of it is exactly what you would expect. Nurgle is one of the better armies out there. It was in the "B" category last time when The Honest Wargamer showed their TTS data-based tier list. Also above Lumineth, which were in the C category at that time. They are always around the 50% win-rate, but all of these are snap-shots, so one good performance can push an army temporarily up. So Khorne, have a look at the tournament data Athrawes showed, a Khorne player recently won a tournament and came in forth in another one. That's a reason why it's in the list with that win-rate. So you could then check if that's an outlier of someone just being really good and/or lucky, or maybe has found a good list in the current meta. Or you could do what you did - just reject it and say it's wrong because it doesn't fit with your expectations. Not being enjoyable is another argument altogether. That's another problem, if people don't get anywhere with the OP discussion - then we start the NPE cycle again. The question which revived the discussion was about power level. Not saying you are wrong, but if you play with Death armies, also a lot of people didn't enjoy playing against many of those, and you can build lists which people experiences as NPE. There will always be people who do not enjoy something - but it's also important to make armies people enjoy playing. A lot of people hate if they can't kill stuff, but there are people who love to play with resilient armies, a lot of people don't like playing against magic armies, but there are people who love that, people don't love shooting etc. I also have my preferences, but wouldn't say and army shouldn't play like it does, just because I don't like it. There is always a balance there, and of course an army should not feel not fun to play against all the time. But it's subjective. LRL have a different playstyle, in many cases you work with debuffs, that's not enjoyable for everyone, but it doesn't mean that it's bad or should be changed. With all the rule changes and abilities other new armies have - I also think there isn't a great argument to make anymore that LRL especially break many rules of the game. Most of the exceptions are also done elsewhere, and many armies/models have a thing they can do which others can't. And that's good.

Just to add to Athrawes data, here are win-rates taken from tournaments: https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/sotm/ There are other similar ones (THW does them, as does DKHM), which all show largely the same. LRL have been one of the more balanced armies which ever since they have come out had a win-rate of ca. 50%. This kind of data is never 100% correct, but however you look at it - it's difficult to say LRL are OP. And I understand the argument that tournaments and normal games aren't the same, but we do not have any good data about the latter - so it's all in the "I feel" area. For example if you look at battle reports of normal games at home and clubs on Facebook or Discord LRL channels - by no means is everyone winning all the time. Nor are we all playing with Teclis and/or 60+ Sentinels. But - that's just my impression from the channels I'm in. If you are in a different Facebook group, you might have different impression. I also understand that for some armies LRL are difficult. For example we had CoS players posting here. I also play against CoS (Dark Elf heavy lists) and that is an uphill battle for them against LRL. But this doesn't mean LRL are OP. If you look at the data above - it's more about CoS being not very competitive right now (and they were also considered OP when they came out by many). If you've played with your friends which have Nighthaunt, Stormcast and Skaven armies - and a friend jumps into LRL, then LRL might look OP to all of you. But it'd look quite different to a group where people are into DoK, KO and Seraphon. ---- This is more in general I know there is a lot of talk about Sentinels (and maybe they get a FAQ that they can't ignore line-of-sight anymore, I personally wouldn't care). But, I think people often overstate their value. Their threat range is really the only good thing about them, and they now cost 1/3rd more than Handgunners for example. They are good, but they aren't a unit which auto-wins you games. It's mainly the combo with Teclis, Spell Portal and Lambent Light, which together now is 740 + 70 + 300 points. Over half you army (because you need at least 20 Sentinels - otherwise that combo still does just around 6, 7 MW per turn). There are a lot of things in the game for over 1,000 points that can do similar things. That's more than 2 Ironclads, more than 2 Frostlords on Stonehorns etc (which both can attack you T1 in most cases) and so on. Of course Teclis does more than just provide Lambent Light, so it's not a 100% accurate comparison, but it's still a big investment - which then makes up a big part of your total damage output. But I can understand that people don't like getting shot off the table. I just don't think it's specific to LRL, and you could complain about so many units in the game if that's the problem. I think the question above - why should Sentinels be able to do this is valid - but my answer would be - because it's cool. Because we want people do all kind of cool stuff. Why should Nighthaunt have charge that causes MW? How can ghosts impact anything? Why should eels be able to attack first in 3rd BR? Because it makes them special and hopefully fun to play. I prefer a Sentinel-like unit over a Slaangor-like unit every time. And I'd be also in favor or changing Sentinels if indeed Lumineth would be OP because of them, and hope they find something else that's pretty cool. Sometimes these abilities are OP, and then are dialed back, sometimes they are dialed back too much, sometimes nothing happens. I don't really think people who do not play LRL should have a say about Teclis auto-cast ability. It's something which makes him stand out, and fun to play. It's great if god characters have abilities only they have. Of course they have to look into it in case a unit makes the faction OP - that's why we should look at the numbers. It shouldn't be changed just because some people think it's not fun. Of course it's better if they find cool abilities which aren't OP and most people on the other side also find ok/fun. But it's not always necessary to make everyone happy. All armies should have abilities which makes them feel strong/unique at some point, even if they aren't always great to play against. All this teeth gnashing about LRL is pretty specific to this forum - many other places have moved on. Not that it's totally absent, but it's just not that big of an issue anymore.

I didn’t say everyone, you can not like a playstyle, or think something is broken for good reasons, you might be still objectively wrong, though. If you play CoS, then some of the things LRL can do, are pretty rough for you, that still doesn’t mean the faction is broken in general, or playing them is “cheese”. Fact is, so far LRL haven’t done anything outstanding, neither in terms of win-rates, nor in terms of tournament wins. Can you make stupid lists with LRL? Yes, sure. If you local LRL player had 80 Sentinels in his list, I think it would a good idea to talk to him or avoid playing against him, if you aren’t playing with similar lists. Most people do not agree on this, here on the forum - sure, but a lot of is not rational, or based on anything substantial. I’ve listened a lot to what went on here, to people who likely haven’t played a game in years, were talking about how LRL are the new Stormcast and we won’t see anything else anymore, that they should be boycotted before they were even out etc. It’s the main reason why I’m not around here much anymore. It’s a constant stream of whining about almost any new faction that’s coming out (either that it’s OP or UP), or any changes they make to the game. It’s not everywhere like that, nor is everyone thinking that LRL are OP. Even some of the more known channels like THW don’t think so anymore, because they data doesn’t show that they are. Same again now, the FAQ isn’t out, no one has played a real AoS 3 game, but you already seem to know that LRL are OP or cheesy or whatever. No one forces you to play LRL with anything CoS couldn’t also do in principle. Play with some a Stoneguard, a Mountain Spirit and Mage, throw in one or two ballistas and some Dawnriders with an additional Wizard if you want and have fun.

Yes, you can also check on the GW homepage in the mats description. If you mean the new Ghur mats.

I’m obviously a Lumineth player, but I play against two other people who are also here on the forum, and so far we never had an unfun game. I usually don’t play with Teclis, but otherwise I don’t do anything special (usually have 20 Seninels in my lists, some lists had 30). There is a lot of negativity here on the forum, and some people just hate elves, but if you are normal type of person there is no reason why you should be “that guy”. LRL haven’t been the best army by any means - neither in terms of tournament wins, nor in terms of overall win rates. They also have a large amount of models, you can easily make a melee focused list too, if you feel shooting is too much. Just lean more into the Mountain Temple. They are good, and some people don’t like them. There are some abilities which can be not fun for your opponent, but that’s true for most of the other armies too. In terms of power level no one can tell your friend right now how all the changes will end up. It could be that they turn out to be very powerful, or quite bad, or in the upper mid-field like now.

You are not missing anything, it’s just bad.

And many people complaining about LRL archers probably have never played against them. It's a meme people are picking up. They do pose a problem for certain armies (reliant on small heroes, with no saves against MW, and those armies aren't only weak against Sentinels, but tend to generally don't do well for obvious reasons), but so do other good units to other armies. Compare the damage of 20 Sentinels - which are slightly more expensive (40 points) than 40 Shootas on a stats app. If they don't get their spell cast, they do an average of one to two wounds more wounds per turn. If they get it cast it's 3 to 4. The damage is good but not great, it's that they can apply the damage almost anywhere on the battlefield which makes them worth their points. On the other hand, that's their only trick for 140 points. They don't have nets or anything like that. They don't do anything in melee. They aren't fast, they haven't got a high number of models to hold object either. It's just a missile unit that does good pinpoint damage where you want it. LRL aren't that great anyway. Many people who were on the "LRL are so OP" train when they were released have come around by now, like The Honest Wargamer for example. It's more a thing still here on this forum and some FB groups.