NinthMusketeer

I believe the endless spell rule blocking movement is RAI 'if a spell is not given a movement speed by one of it's rules it cannot move.'

No, I am relatively certain that is not the case here. These people are making an honestly effort to play by the rules.

Move = Any time the model is moved (note a teleport does not count as a move inherently but it is not uncommon for a teleport ability to add that it counts as a move). Normal move = The regular movement in the movement phase. Note this can also include running and/or retreating, but will still remain a normal move. Charge move = Rather self evident. Pile-in = The shuffle during the combat phase.

Yes.

I have a basic question: What out of the new stuff is as bad or worse than Light of Eltharion, Teclis, or Sentinels for gameplay experience?

I think you may be missing my point, but I thank you for reinforcing my argument regardless.

It summons a 160-200 point unit that gets to come in from any table edge; more beneficial than having to deploy it normally. The CP cost is negated by the throne, so no, the archregent is not a 240-point 7-wound 2-cast wizard that heals 3 wounds a turn. Its 80 points. A player in my local community uses FEC as his tournament army, he has four of them. So when I see THAT it is difficult to be alarmed by what I see in the newmineth.

I am relatively sure we are on the same page here. I was having trouble explaining what I meant.

It was already massively important to be on the same page as one's opponent/community in where the power level should be. This update will make it more so, but only by a wee bit. A new sample on the 100-cheese platter.

I believe they really wanted to make Lumineth feel like a uniquely skilled and exotic faction in their rules mechanics, and I think they have really succeeded there. I see a lot more things that have immense tactical depth than things which are needlessly convoluted or OP. From the start Lumineth have been an intricate army with more of a learning curve than most, they have always been clearly presented as a complicated-play force. For someone who is intimidated by all these new rules for their army... it is ok! The basic core of the Lumineth army (that being what you already have) is quite good and can absolutely make for an effective build all on its own! For those concerned about needing to play against all these rules it is OK; while Lumineth have a load of special abilities and rule-ignoring effects, a given list is extremely unlikely to have all of those at once, or even a majority. I won't lie; there will be a learning curve in going up against Lumineth (more than there already was) but the upside is that's because there are ways to counter-play a lot of these abilities. Sometimes quite harshly.

I think you need to understand the specific logical math chain happening here: -Some units in the Lumineth army ignore specific rules. Sometimes more than one. -Other units in the Lumineth army also ignore specific rules, but they are different ones. -While no part of the army gets to ignore a ton of rules, there is a wide spread across the whole force of rules getting ignored even though it is only by specific units in specific ways. -This is the internet so specifics are generally ignored. Therefore 'specific units ignore specific rules, while other specific units ignore other specific rules' becomes 'units ignore rules, other units ignore other rules'. -Generalization must also be applied, because internet. So 'units' and 'other units' can be combined into 'most of the army'. While 'rules' and 'other rules' can be combined into 'most of the rules'. -Therefore, we can conclude that most of the Lumineth army ignores most of the rules. This is quite frightening.

I, for one, think we should trust these leaks implicitly and pass judgement on them before we have the full context or any actual testing. And we should definitely overreact! I kid of course, obviously this isn't a run-of-the-mill leak and some of these abilities are pretty potent. But I do want to remind people of the nastiness we already deal with just to put things into context. Just from current Lumineth we have Sentinels sniping without line of sight from 30" away, ignoring hit penalties because they only care about the MW damage from unmodified rolls anyways. We have the twinstones more or less throwing out +2 to cast to most the army, we have a spell that doubles the cost of using command abilities board wide, we have Teclis dropping 36" diameter MW bubbles through spellportals... and so much more! We have Slaanesh reasonably (if not easily) summoning a free Keeper of Secrets every turn! We have DoK cutting the middle man out of Sentinels and just MW shooting you after teleporting 9" away! We have Kroak making our units croak with aoe MW blasts hitting most of the table! We have KO dropping a Warp Lightning Vortex in the middle of your army turn 1! We have Tzeentch! We have half the units in StD aspiring to be marauders when they grow up! We have bonereapers boning us with Katakros replacing petrifax in giving the army +1 to saves! And so, so much more. If a new release wants to compete with the existing cheese of AoS that cheddar better be sharp enough to cut a limb off.

And my point is that the new stuff they are getting is not even equally bad to what we already deal with. And again, I referenced 800 specifically because it is NOT the maximum they can bring in if going all-in on summoning. Going 'full summon' is a full 50% more free points than that. You accused me of hyperbole without even knowing the rules I was talking about! How am I, or anyone, supposed to respect your opinion on these Lumineth rules when you have just clearly demonstrated tremendous misconception with rules that are literally free for anyone to download? So to reiterate, instead of actually checking to see what legitimacy my claim had you jumped to insulting me, and when called on it turned around with a disingenuous bad-faith argument. And to top it off, this is defending a judgement call on something we don't even have the full warscroll for yet! So no, I am not writing up a list for you. Engage in some good-faith discussion to demonstrate you are worth the effort and maybe one day I will.

Technically the max is 6 archregents each summoning 20 ghouls for a total of 1200 free points round one, but I figured I would name something more reasonable. 800 being hyperbole? I wish. Nice straw man with that closing statement though, would be a solid hero for a scarecrow army.

And what command abilities are they using? Because I am pretty dam sure it will be benign compared to FEC pulling in 800 points of free models from any table edge turn 1 thanks to their terrain piece.

Bumping this thread, due to renewed interest in the topic.

*cough* Alternate By Phase: An alternative to the normal sequence of play is alternating by phase, particularly useful in free-for-all matches because it prevents any one player from waiting a long period between actions. Using this method the player who is first in the initiative order takes their hero phase, then the next player takes their hero phase, and so on. Once each player has taken their hero phase the round progresses to the movement phase which proceeds in the same manner, and so on with subsequent phases. Note that while there is only a single battleshock phase it uses the accumulated casualties of the whole round. Second Combat: In an exception to the normal phase sequence there is a second combat phase immediately after the first which uses reverse initiative order. Abilities that expire at the end of a player turn or which rely on a type of move (other than pile-in) being performed in the same turn do not apply during the second combat phase. For example, an ability which grants benefits if the unit made a charge move the same turn can only grant them such during the first combat phase, not the second.

Nothing previewed from Lumineth is anywhere near the level of potency as what they already have, not sure what you are on about there.

I don't buy that. First, because the time investment would be trivial, the 'trade off' is just having someone/multiple someones who know what they are doing. For example; I could take a battletome and create the level of balance I am asking for with a single 8-hour work shift. That is one shift per book. That is nothing, a drop in the bucket. Second, there are people lining up in the community who would do it for free. GW does not want to change the current dynamic because a meta that is balanced enough to keep people playing coupled with shifting unbalance produces sales as what is good or bad changes over time and people buy to compensate. What the accountants do not understand is how that cuts away at player recruitment and retention in the long term.

There are a lot of changes in design I think would improve balance, improve the game, and make AoS better. Some people also think my ideas are cool, others disagree, or only partly agree. There is a lot of discussion to be had on the what-ifs in that regard. But I don't ask GW to do that. What I ask of GW in regards to balance is very simple: do a better job with the point costs. That's it. No trade-offs, no changes. Just balance them better. Hell, send the stuff to me before it goes to the printers and I would do it for free. It is not that difficult to improve.

Going to stop you right there. It wouldn't. 40k balance is at least as bad as AoS. If anything, 40k is proof that the AoS approach of point costing in 'bundles' is better because splitting things into component point costs simply gives GW that many more places to mess up.

Not responding to any specific post, but I would note that regardless of the interpretation I feel any hostility from either side is unwarranted, as it a situation where someone can very honestly reach either conclusion in good faith. I have seen a lot of the 'I am intentionally trying to game the system for personal benefit' rules arguments (tourney judge, comes with the territory) and this certainly isn't one of them.

Content in campaign books remains valid until it is replaced*. The Realmgate Wars never had pitched battle profiles, so was never legal in Matched to begin with. But stuff like Legion of Greif or Fyreslayer/FEC mercenary rules is still useable, and that is from the Forbidden Power supplement. There may even be some stuff from the Firestorm supplement still useable in Matched, though most has been replaced and I dimly recall Grand Alliance allegiances can't be used in Matched as of the newest GHB? *With the notable exception of warscrolls (units & battalions); these must have a point cost with a publication of August 2020 or later (as of me typing this). The way I think of it is that when a new GHB drops and does not have a point cost for something, it is essentially 'replacing' that cost with 'no longer available for matched play'.

This is correct. To elaborate; they split when they are slain (present tense) whereas battleshock removes the models and then says to treat them as having been slain (past tense) as in 'now that they are gone treat them as if they had died normally even though they did not.' The tricky part of the rule comes in the present and past tense of "slain" being the same word. Sometimes a good question to ask oneself is 'if I was building a list for a tournament would I count on the rule working this way when I got there?'

Technically it is the Nirvana Fallacy, but it is brought up so often I think breaking it off into it's own sub-category of "Perfect Balance Fallacy" is worth doing. Because seriously almost every balance discussion has someone popping in to try it. There was, at least, no mention of the phrase 'even chess isn't perfectly balanced!' and for that I am thankful.