Agent of Chaos

@Mikelomba pretty risky strategy. A more reliable way would be to run Blood Lords. Make Insensate Rage the General for +4 movement, use a CP to make him run 6 (if you don't roll a natural 6 first) and that's 20" of movement with the 6" pile in provided you can keep the Unfettered Fury within 16" (not too difficult). This way there are no dice rolls needed and you can save your bloodtithe for something else.

Yes it is, although I would suggest any list with Skarbrand is somewhat competitive. Any competitive list, mortal or daemon, will want at least one slaughterpriest and probably a bloodsecrator too. Gore Pilgrims is still one of the best battalions for mortals and Skarbrand will benefit greatly from the extra attacks to his axes. It will also help shut down your opponents magic. You will want to screen him so he doesnt get into combat before you are ready so a unit or 2 of blood reavers would be a good idea (which you can fit in gore pilgrims along with a unit of blood warriors). Reapers of Vengeance would be a good choice for slaughter host so Skarbrand can attack twice, or Goretide for getting extra movement out of your reavers/warriors. Either way you want an extra command point. If you throw all of the above together it sets you back around 1200 with the remaining points spent on whatever you like based on what you think the list needs or your opponent is bringing. Sample List with 270 points to play with; Allegiance: Khorne- Slaughterhost: Reapers of VengeanceLeadersSkarbrand (380)Slaughterpriest (100)- Blood Blessing: Blood SacrificeSlaughterpriest (100)- Blood Blessing: Killing FrenzyBloodsecrator (120)Battleline10 x Blood Warriors (200)- Goreaxe & Gorefist- 1x Goreglaives10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Reaver Blades10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Reaver BladesBattalionsGore Pilgrims (140)Total: 1230 / 1500Extra Command Points: 2

This was a really interesting analysis. Thank you very much! Although its difficult to draw conclusions due to the holes in the data pointed out by others, the breakdown of how many drops people's armies had is really useful. I've got a tournament coming up in a few months and have been practicing with a 2 drop list which I feel really good about right now thanks to you! Mind you its not because my list needs to go first, but its sometimes about denying that opportunity to your opponent, or weighing up whether you can wear the first double turn or not. Its also telling me that I can probably afford to go up to 3 drops and still have a very high chance of having the choice. Thanks again!

Sylvaneth = same principles as Tzeentch, Seraphon & Death. Stop their magic and beat them up in combat while staying aware of shenanigans (being teleporting in Sylvaneth's case)

Thanks all! I was aware of the Sequence of Play Principles table but wasn't too sure how it applied to the banner. Seems we have a consensus which seems reasonable to me and hopefully to my opponents as well!

@Praecautus I dont mind that interpretation at all but how do I justify it to opponents?

You are most welcome mate! Always happy to help out a new player. I think you've put together a nice looking list. I'm not going to tell you to make changes because it has to be your list at the end of the day. Play it and see what works and what doesn't and make subtle changes from there if needed. Some thoughts on it would be; Good mix of heroes. Personally not a fan of the mighty lord of khorne as I dont rate his command ability however if his axe goes off on a big target you're laughing. Some players love him and I'm interested to hear what you think of him; With throne breakers torc you dont have to be too scared about getting the bloodsecrator near combat, especially given you want him at least within 8" for the banner. Keeping a priest within 8" of the altar and the the bloodsecrator within 8" of the priest can be tricky to pull off at times but is very doable. All depends on whether your opponent is coming to you or you are playing aggressively towards them; The blood sacrifice strategy is sound. Dont forget the Shrine's ward save works on itself so you have a chance of blocking those mortal wounds in the first place!; With the Wrathmongers, I sometimes put together what I call the land tank where you have a screen of reavers or warriors, followed by Skull reapers, followed by the wrathmongers. The 8" range is enough to capture both units in front, if the front unit is warriors they attack on death, then the skull reapers pile in and the next turn the wrathmongers charge in to mop up. I will often sit a hero or 2 in the middle of this formation, such as an Aspiring Deathbringer for more attacks, the bloodstoker and/or the bloodsecrator. That formation can take a charge from just about anything and wipe it out in return; Dont forget your slaughterhost abilities. Not many people expect a unit of 10 blood warriors in their face first turn. Rerolling wounds of 1 when near objectives is also pretty huge. OK I will make one suggestion for you to consider; instead of the second unit of 5 x blood warriors you could run them as 5 regular chaos warriors with the mark of Khorne. Reason being that unit only costs 90 points instead of 100 which means you have 50 remaining and can afford to buy a command point. It would mean an extra drop but I doubt that would matter with this list and Khorne is now a fairly command point hungry list with the new slaughter hosts and bloodsecrator no longer granting battleshock immunity. Good luck!

Seeking clarification from the Khorne brains trust on the Banner of Wraith. Exact wording of the artifact is; "In the combat phase, roll a dice for each enemy unit within 8" of the bearer. On a 4+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds." I know that it works in either player's combat phase. Question is, when exactly does the effect take place? At the beginning of the phase? At the end? Sometime during? Does it depend on whose turn it is? Whats the protocol when its my opponent's turn? Does it happen when you activate the Bloodsecrator in combat? What if he isn't within 3" and so not activating? Does it cost an activation for the effect to go off (doubt it). This came up in a game where I was attacked by gryph hounds who, after attacking, can move out of combat and so moved out of the 8" range. Should I have been able to use the banner before they did their attack and move?

How did you go in the 1000 point tournament? So far your instincts are really good. Slaughterpriests are indeed a must take and in 2000 points you want at least 2. casting 2 prayers per turn plus a judgement each, none of which your opponent can stop, is extremely powerful, even more so with the altar. I havnt used judgements myself however they appear to be useful for blocking your opponent's movement if nothing else and seeing as you have the models it would make sense to include at least one. The Bloodsecrator is also fairly essential and I would put a bloodstoker in the same class. The movement buff and reroll wounds is huge and he is less of a target for the enemy. Aspiring Deathbringers are very handy in 1000 point games but usually in larger games you will need hero slots for stronger heroes. The Juggerlord is capable however his command ability is very meh and he is probably a little overcosted for what he does. You dont tend to see him in many competitive lists. Some people swear by buffed up reavers, others would say dont waste your time and buffs on them. Yes they can get a huge amount of attacks but they are low quality and they die to a stiff breeze. One unit is essential if you run the gore pilgrims battalion but even without it I usually take a 10 man unit for one of my slaughterpriests to cast blood sacrifice on. They also make good screening units which die easily for bloodtithe. If you really want to go for a screaming horde of buffed up reavers then the Dark Feast battalion is a great option. You might also consider an Exalted Deathbringer in that list for battlsehock immunity The warshrine is very good with reavers too as its a mobile totem, can let them reroll hits, gives a ward save and can take a prayer like killing frenzy. For that build you need minimum 3 units and probably want at least 60... if you can stand painting that many good luck to you! Bloodwarriors are indeed quite reliable. Not having rend and wounding on 4's isnt great but attacking on death is cool, bouncing mortal wounds on 6's can also be great. If I take them I always bring 10 for the Goreglaive however you often see them run in units of 5 as essentially speed bumps and objective grabbers. I've often seen the 10 man unit decimated by shooting only for the remaining 3 or 4 to really hold their own in whatever combat they make it to. Another box of warriors is definitely recommended and I would build 10 with gorefists and 5 with dual axes but its obviously up to you if did it the other way around. The other trick you can do, which I have done along with many others, is to build Wrathmongers and then use 5 blood warrior torsos to make Skullreapers. It requires some cutting and maybe a little green stuff but works really well. Both mongers and reapers are awesome. Obviously they perform very different roles with Skullreapers being probably the biggest damage dealing unit mortals have. Buff them up with extra attacks and whip them with the stoker and watch them go to town. Wrathmongers are an excellent support unit for them, or for a unit of 10 bloodwarriors, or for anything really! I havnt used skullcrushers but they do seem to be on par with chaos knights. They can both receive the same buffs, same wounds for a minimum size unit, knights are faster although the crushers have a better save which is important. A slaughterpriest with Bronzed flesh can make them a 2+ save which is huge. Also with only 3 models you wont have to worry about battleshock and mortal wounds on the charge are great (I wouldnt run them in units of 6 as they take up a heap of space and are unlikely to all fit in combat). If you get them def go glaives over hand weapons for extra charge damage (same goes for knights). If you do run the knights then you really want to be running the chaos lord on mount for the +1 to hit and reroll charges command ability so bare that in mind. A unit of 10 x bloodletters is def worth getting for summoning as sometimes you need bodies on an objective. If you want to start with them in the list you prob want a big unit of 20, if not the full 30. They are the definition of glass cannon but when they go off its great to watch. I cant recommend flesh hounds enough. Fast, can unbind, can reroll charges (making them an excellent unit to summon), good for screening, have lots of attacks which make them great for clearing opposition chaff. Unless you like the models I wouldnt bother with blood crushers or the skull cannon. Neither is a good competitive choice and there are better summoning options. The only other unit of note we hant mentioned are Bloodthirsters. Def get at least one, for summoning if not to start with. The Insensate Rage version is probably best for a one off damage dealer although if you go a daemon heavy list the Unfettered Fury with its 6" pile in ability for daemons within 16" is gold. Wraith of Khorne with its +2 to unbind is great for magic defense. I havnt used Skarbrand but you can imagine how devastating he can be when used correctly. Thats probably enough to get the creative juices flowing for you! Happy skull collecting!

Going Khorne will def be more competitive which is probably a good idea if you are going to a tournament. By the way the slaves can take the mark of khorne and so won't count as allies. Chaos knights love khorne buffs like extra attacks from the bloodsecrator and +1 to hit from the slaughterpriest (Killing Frenzy prayer), as well as being great candidates to be whipped by the bloodstoker for +3" to charge and reroll wounds (and remember all of those buffs apply to the steeds as well as the riders). With the models you have I would recommend the Goretide Slaughterhost to get your bloodwarriors and bloodreavers running and charging. The reroll 1's to wound when within 12" for all mortals is a really nice buff as well. If you list your models and the amount of points you are building to I would be happy to help you out with an army list.

I played a meeting engagements game. Concept is interesting and its certainly fast and furious however I found too much of your army is kept out of the game for too long. Unless the 2nd and 3rd deployment waves are especially fast they tend to only get one or two actions which feels a bit lacklustre. It definitely favours faster armies or those with teleporting shenanigans. For Khorne I recommend Goretide for slingshotting bloodwarriors or reavers, Daemon Prince, flesh hounds, Karanak, a slaughterpriest with blood sacrifice (the extra moves and charges from bloodtithe are worth even more in this limited format) and anything else with a bit of speed.

Your direct quote: "I don't know any gaming group or any major or minor tournament where BoK are even remotely relevant." Your ignorant comment has been called out but the results are not relevant because you say so? You are starting to embarrass yourself now champ... He won 5 out of 5 games at Cancon. Cant do any better then that. He also won a highly competitive follow up 60 player tournament. Also 10th place at a tournament is not a terrible finish. Plenty of better players/armies finish lower. Point is Khorne functions fine as an army for many players. If it doesnt work for you thats fine, dont play them. But dont jump on here talking shite and turning new players off because of your own bias (or worse, condescending the level of another player's local meta that you know nothing about- that was just about one of the lowest comments I've seen someone make anywhere on this forum), then talking even more ****** when you get called out. I suggest using your salt for the chip on your shoulder and not for poor comments on this forum.

@Charleston last point if I may... @Kurrilino look up CanCon... largest AOS tournament in the Southern Hemisphere (192 players)... won by Khorne...

BOK did get better champ. Its only you whinging about it these days...

If you dont need bloodreavers for a battalion but still need a throwaway unit to sit on a home objective, screen your heroes/zone out deep strikers and/or to use blood sacrifice on then the Iron Golems look to be a solid option. The Untamed Beasts are decent for grabbing an objective first turn with their pre-game movement plus run & charge. They will die to the first thing that looks at them however so do bloodreavers so again if you dont need reavers for a battalion these guys might be worth considering. However in either case I would probably just take reavers; if only for the potential synergies should they ever be needed, not to mention -1 rend.

If a buff comes from an ability (i.e. +1 attack from a Bloodsecrator or Wrathmongers, etc) then the mount would also get the benefit. "Unit's melee weapons" includes the mount's melee attacks. Note that it also effects units/models with two or more melee attacks, such as Bullgors Axes & Horn attacks, or Aspiring Deathrbinger with his two axes- both weapons gain +1 attack. If the buff comes from an artifact or command trait (i.e. the Goretide trait you mentioned) then the mount is not effected, unless the item description specifically says it effects mounts.

@KhorgusCool Its not uncommon for goblins or skaven to have that many models on the table so dont worry about that. Also, its a tournament so anything goes when it comes to list building. Some players are turned off by Gristle Gore Flesh Eater Courts, some are turned off by 4 x Bloodthirsters, others by a shooting heavy stormcast list. At a tournament players build a list they think can win (or will have fun with) so apart from playing the game in the right spirit you dont have to worry about what opponents think of your list. Just be mindful of time limits, pre-empt your moves and get good at moving your models quickly. You definitely want a warshrine and bloodsecrator, maybe even 2 warshrines instead of 2 bloodsecrators for a greater totem footprint and spread of Feel No Pain saves. An exalted Deathrbringer for battleshock immunity would be good (as Roark said) and you can never go wrong with a couple of slaughter priests (one should definitely have blood sacrifice for sweet sweet blood tithe)

I love Descend into Madness! Really cool idea for a spell! In fact they are all pretty cool and well thought out without being overpowered, except maybe the first one is a little too good against specific opponents. Reducing the range to 12" and/or increasing the cast roll would balance it a little better. The weapons/artifacts are pretty cool too, very fluffy. However Worldender and Grimoire are clear autopicks over the rest of them. At least you've proven it isn't that hard a thing to do and GW should pull their finger out and gives Slaves an assist!

Flesh hounds are the bomb and offer so much versatility. Fast for nabbing objectives early or late. Cavalry bases mean 5 of them can make a decent sized screen for more important units. Each unit gives you another unbind opportunity (with +1 for units of 10). Loads of attacks, great for clearing enemy chaff or ganging up on weak support heroes (who they can often reach with their speed to get around flanks). Inbuilt reroll charge means you save command points and they are an excellent choice for summoning with two chances at the 9" charge. High bravery means battleshock isn't an issue. Despite the above they pose a low threat to the opponent, for damage potential anyway, and so are often overlooked unless you suicide charge them. And they are battleline! Whats not to love???

@daviseford very nice! However Bloodtithe is specifically spent at the start of the hero phase and not at any point as noted on your site (apart from the spell unbind one which is obviously spent as needed).

@PivotalCar You can never go wrong with a Bloodthirster! Most people might say the Insensate Rage is a better distraction carnifex for his exploding mortal wound potential whereas Unfettered Fury is more tactically interesting due to the 6" pile in. I'm sure you could proxy whichever model you get as either Bloodthirster so you can try them both out and I doubt you will be unhappy with the results. At the very least you will have one handy for summoning when you get to 8 bloodtithe.

@nakomat summoned units are free. Wrath & Rapture is OK if you intend on using all of those models and have someone to buy the Slaanesh half. My 3 Bloodcrushers see very little use, same with Karanak, but now and then they have been fun in casual games. Its probably a better option then the Start Collecting Khorne Daemons if you dont want a skull cannon/throne, but if you want to go heavy on Bloodcrushers then buying both boxes is a good option.

Yep, Immense Power is gone and Deathdealer now improves one weapon's rend by 1 so the +2DMG bloodthirster combo is a thing of the past. If you want extra damage the only option is to run the Goretide and make the thirster/daemon prince your general.

Second what @PivotalCar said. 9 Crushers are really unwieldy so dropping to 6 and taking some Skullreapers would work nicely, especially if you replace a priest for some Wrathmongers. 3 Priests isn't necessarily a bad thing though.

GW has put itself into a difficult position with Slaves to Darkness... Having most of the units able to take a mark and join a god-specific army is popular with players, fits with the fluff and adds flexibility to those other factions which are all good things. The consequence of this is if GW buff chaos warriors, knights and chariots to be effective in their own right within a Slaves allegiance then those units can quickly become ridiculous in god-specific armies. For example Khorne can easily give extra attacks, extra movement, bonuses and/or rerolls to hit and wound which makes for a very punchy unit of chaos knights or chosen. If their base warscroll was to become even stronger it could get crazy and people would start running them over Blood Crushers or Skull Crushers. Of course any increase in power could come with a point increase however I'm pretty sure the last thing Slaves players want is for their units to cost more! Therefore it might be kind of necessary for slaves units to remain relatively average to ensure they don't surpass the options within other factions. The way to rectify that would be to leave the unit warscrolls as is but with some really nice Slaves Allegiance Abilities that provide buffs equal to those found within god-specific armies without ridiculous limitations (i.e. having to be WHOLLY WITHIN 6" to get the Slaanesh buffs is a joke). A slaves to darkness spell lore would also be handy although the spells would have to be pretty good to be cast over Daemonic Power. Then Slaves would be a powerful army in its own right and I long for the day when its actually a toss up to run Khorne or Slaves allegiance. The other major problem is that Slaves have been one of the staple warhammer armies since the beginning, by one name or another. 20 odd years ago they were just called Chaos Warriors and I still have a ton of models from those days as I'm sure many old players do, while new players can probably easily find hundreds of old plastic knights and warriors on ebay at a reasonable price. The point is that releasing a shiny new battletome may not do anything for sales of Slaves stuff other than the new tome itself. Being a business first, GW would know this and may decide a Slaves tome is not a priority (maybe not ever needed) or is not worth putting a whole lot of thought and effort into meaning what we do get is barely an improvement on the GHB abilities. One solution to this issue is to release some shiny new models with the new tome. Plastic Chosen (or some equivalent of Varanguard on foot) has been mentioned a lot in these pages and would be a popular choice. Endless spells seem like an obvious option and it would be very interesting to see what they come up with for generic chaos endless spells. Coupled with that could be a lesser Chaos Sorcerer (i.e. keep the current Sorcerer Lord but give us a second, cheaper option without the automatic mystic shield, a less powerful base spell but with access to the new spell lore and endless spells). Another cool idea would be to go back to the days of Chaos Lords and Sorcerers being able to ride in chariots (and if we are really dreaming then the option to have their chariot pulled by the daemonic steeds of the hero's chosen chaos god). With chariots as battleline in a slaves army this allows for the possibility of an all chariot army which would surely excite some people. They wouldnt even have to produce a new model; just make it possible and let people buy the kits separately and convert away. I've wanted to convert a Khorne Lord riding a chariot pulled by juggernaughts forever and now I have the means but the unit doesnt exist 😞 New battalions might also get people interested in Slaves; something that encouraged an all cavalry army with bonus movement for example. Nothing crazy or OP, just usable and interesting. Anyways hopefully GW sees enough commercial benefit in Slaves to produce a decent battletome without wasting our time or negatively affecting the other chaos factions. One can hope!