Deadkitten

I'm not even sure it's that. You can have a competitive scene with even power level. Chess is a good example here. And it's not just the casual crowd sounding the alarm here. The Just Playing podcast had a nice critique I think. It's easy to have a conversation and self-police for casual games. There's some work involved when it comes to Events. I agree that it is well worth it though. Would a Feeding Frenzy once per turn be enough? Once per hero? The Gristlegore GKoZD ability should at least be a CP to activate I think.

I think it comes down to matchup win percentages. There will always be Tiers and that's not inherently a bad thing. I'm not sure you even want a system that is 50/50% all the time. What would we gripe about then? When AoS2 dropped and some of the armies were released shortly thereafter we had something in the neighborhood of 65/35. Iron Jaws could still go off and sneak in that win against DoK. And all the new stuff seemed to sort of be dropping into that range of the armies with books vs those without. There was a good build but everything else was fine. Now with FEC, it's not the build that's good, it's one of the fundamental army traits. FEC itself is good with win percentages like 90/10. That's not fun. I'll say that "I don't have facts to back this up" and I see there is a Powercreep thread here: https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/21862-powercreep-fact-or-fiction/ maybe that's a better place to have that discussion rather than taking up any more space here. Oh and Brets as FEC would be fine in just about any scene I expect. You just might need to tell your opponent the inside joke if they don't get it.

We need a handicap system.

That's not the problem though. The gap between the good armies and everything else is just too much. 0 Tier stuff is bad for the meta. It's the casuals that keep any game system going and if you're turning them off then that's a bad thing. You don't want event attendance cut in half b/c half the room is playing a Tier 0 army in order to have a shot at the podium. I was hoping that GW would reign in the power creep a bit and am sad to see it. You can can only adapt so much but if you have no answers and "adapting" means just switching to the new thing, then that's just bad for the game as a whole.

So I think LoB is pretty well positioned against FEC. Granted I'm relying on the Orb of Enchantment to counter the Gristleghiest GKoTG but it is a decent answer. Then, Blood Knights have the damage output to drop big fatties. Thoughts?

Maybe just trade the Horrors for more Courtiers. Just go all in on Ghouls!

definitely need to figure out what the "right" amount of starting CPs are. Not saying you're wrong here, just I don't know. I do think you want the Flayers to be able to fly over the mid-field dog-pile that will occur here.

Allegiance: DestructionTroggoth Hag (380)Dankhold Troggboss (300)Madcap Shaman (80)3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)6 x Fellwater Troggoths (320)6 x Fellwater Troggoths (320)10 x Squig Hoppers (180)Skitterstrand Arachnarok (260)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 126 Spitballing here.

So how do Troggs play? I got crushed at an event recently. I know there's the Battalion that does extra damage on a 6. Doesn't seem great outside of needing reduced drops and the extra artifact. Do they play aggressively? Somewhat cagey? Screens of squig hoppers or snotlings seems fun. Is this an army of hobby love? I kind of like the Fellwater model. Not sure why everyone is so down on it.

9-6-3 is the configuration I'd be looking at. I think with gobbos and skaven we're going to be seeing 40 blocks. 20 Sequitors is a thing. No, I don't expect to always get all 9 in but I think even 7 or 8 will matter. SO many things have the potential to pop units when they hit and I think Mustering is too good not to take advantage of. EDIT: I REALLY want to squeeze that Chalice in.

I run mine with Sanguine Blur for the +2 M, Pinions and the Orb of Enchantment. Basically looking to take out a key piece. I've found the Orb to be a hard counter vs some problematic stuff. Blood Knights aren't exactly top tier so I like having an ace up my sleeve.

Structure wise the double mounted GK lists will resemble the double VLoZD lists that have been floating around.

NO NO The FW Hag riding the Beetle!

EDIT: The post I was responding to since we're on a new page now.... @MarthenBy "the Feeding Frenzy Delusion" do you mean the one that allows you to FF once per turn without a CP? That is a very strong one. Anything that is looking into dragging a combat out into your opponents turn would want to be looking at this one. Basically, I think all the FEC builds need to address CP management. Thankfully, we have options and so the best one probably just comes down to builds/preference at this point. Story might be different a few months from now. You prob need more ghouls for Ghoul Spam.

I'm leaning towards yes. I think the good thing about Gristlegore is being able to manipulate the combat order. Combined with Feeding Frenzy, it's bonkers. Yes you give up a lot going with a more general all-comers list and then going Gristlegore just for the general. Having said that, I also don't think you're maximizing Gristlegore's potential doing that. You need a couple of hammers hitting at the same time with the CPs available to put into FF. Ideally with 1 or 2 of those combat spells. That's a lot of hoops to jump through but I think the payoff is there. OTOH, Gristlegore is asking a very specific question of your opponent, and if your opponent has an answer for that question, then I think it will be an uphill struggle because you might not have the tools you would otherwise have in another Delusion where the answers aren't so obvious.

Yeah, it is by no means tuned. What I like here is that there are the 2 big blocks to grind. However, I'm not sure there's enough Mustering here to do that, after dedicating a couple heroes to the Flayers. I figure you could just spawn the other Courtiers to support the Ghoul blocks. It's not like there aren't good answers for monsters so it would be good to have something to pivot into.

FECAbhorrant Archregent (200)Abhorrant Ghoul King (140)Crypt Infernal Courtier (120)Crypt Infernal Courtier (120)30 x Crypt Ghouls (300)30 x Crypt Ghouls (300)10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)9 x Crypt Flayers (510)Chalice of Ushoran (40)Total: 1830 / 2000Extra Command Points: 3Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 131 Some room in there for a Battalion, Endless Spells or just the CPs.

Yes, I'm wondering if a block of 9 with a couple of Courtiers following it around is legit. More of an investment than the GKoTG but so much more redundant. Hand of Dust and Skaven shooting terrifies me. A behemoth hero is so good in a lot of missions though.

I'd break up one of those 6 Flayer units. I'd use at least 3 to run as a screen specifically. I'd be sorely tempted to take the 9 up to 12, but it could fold into the other 6 easily enough.

Just don't pull that shield dude!

So I'm wrong but for a different reason: Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used? A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. The same principle applies to any other things – such as command traits or artefacts of power – that can be used simultaneously. I'm not sure how this ruling interacts with the other one quoted specifically mentioning the Taurus. My original thinking/understanding was that during the BoC player's turn, when they cast Taurus, that the GK would lose the strike first ability including the part that says he can't fight normally bc the ability was indivisible. Now I'm really not so sure. I would need to read up on Endless Spells to see how the triggers happen since they happen at the beginning of the Battle Round before each players' turn. And I might even be wrong about that part. That bit I quoted is from the Designers Commentary for the core rules.

The player with Priority chooses the order in which the triggers stack. So the Taurus would work but only on the BoC player's turn. The Ghoul King would still get to fight bc the Taurus ability (attacks last) would superced the Ghoul King's ability (cannot fight in the combat phase). So doable but Gristlegore will be a problem..... The Taurus is one of the more obvious answers.

The Alpha Strike lists go lower than 3-4 drops though. How much do you really care about anything not at that level? Say 5-8 Drops? In a Monster Mash sort of list I think the Battalions compete for more ghouls. You need some number and anywhere from 1300-1500 pts are tied up in the monsters themselves. It's an interesting tension. The Battalion gets you lower drops but at the cost of less Ghouls but the Ghouls provide the screen to survive that Alpha. After seeing the Chalice perform this weekend, I think it's a no brainer over a Battalion. The real benefit I see to the Battalion is the Artifact & Trait. And from what I'm seeing the list is extremely CP hungry.

So this happened this weekend. Dragon took out those Blood Knights but then got charged by another 5, the VLoZD, & 2 Vamp Lords. Popped the Orb of Enchantment and then proceeded to kill the Dragon.

Is there a 1-Drop FEC build?