mmimzie

First be very sure that the tournament lets you also use the rules warscroll for the terrain you are bringing. if you can bring the gaunts and summon some pinks i really suggest bringing quick silver swords. It's a very easy spell to get off and you can use the swords to kill some of your pinks early and get some blues on the table. As the pinks are chaos they die on 5+s so you'll kill on average 4 of the pink horrors. This will give you 6 blue horror summoning points, enable a battle shock (for which you can use destiny dice to auto pass with a 1 and get d6 more horrors), and potentialy let you set some very fast forward blue horrors. You can compound this with arcane sacrafice by making the gaunt summoner the general (which i recommend). This allows you to stab some more horror and get an average of another 2 horror kills and another 4 blue horror point. Meaning those two average about 10 blue horror summons a round. As for list fixing i'd make the tzaangor a 9 block. There is alot of reason for this, mainly being that you want there damage coming out in 1 attack choice. As the enlightend are pretty frail and if some one attacks a unit of tzaangor first (IE, if you have 2 units of enlightend in combat, the first you'll get to pick, and the 2nd the one will die to most anything that it will in combat with). Next you'll want fold reality to allow you to revive models. 3 man units you may as well be healing d3 models and actualy it kind of starts to not be worth ever using fold reality on that unit. However if you have a unit of 9 and you end up with 2 remaining fold reality becomes a pretty darn big deal. similar to above 9 man enlightend i think is the real awesome zone. in 1 charge you can usualy get 7 or 8 of them in combat and likely all the spears into your primary target. Not to mention again fold reality value. Also do you have enough battle line ithink if you are within 250pts you have to jump up the bracket to 2000pt requirments.

There are certain alont of chess analogies that can me made for this warband for sure, you got you king/queen/pawn/rooks. and movement i think is definitly the name of the game for this warband. that said i think cards involving hold objectives are not worth it at all no matter the warband. as it is very easy to get you off. They dont even need to swing at you just throw a ploy and you lost a glory or more. I also don't love making a statment, while it's true that unmaking makes it easier to score, it doesn't by much. for one you only have 1 guy who can reasonable hold and objective in that he doesn't get puched back if he dies once. While the other 4 warband members want to be as far away from the enemy models as they can be at all times, they won't dane to go into opponents territory. This means you can only realisticly score making a statement on game where you ahve both making a statement and withering before hand, and where in you ahve 3 objectives on your side and 2 on the opponents. While you opponent doesn't also have "confuse, distraction, great concussion, & earth quake" Or purhaps they are palying goblins and have withering and a making a statement of thier own and they don't jsut destroy the last objective in there own territory to stop you. The problem with the deck that works this way is it only works one time if it does at all. As if your opponent knows the stuff you are going for and they can stop it, they just will. where as with a kill focused deck your opponent can't stop you from scoring 80% of your objective cards. now we do have alot of great ways we can get glory outside of objectives. "eyes of the master, master of magic, chosen my destiny, martyed, shining example, fired up" Are all really great cards for us. On top of this unverisally good cards like "escalation and ploymaster" can help fill out our objective roster. I think you just need a few more like concerted attack to round out the deck, and you have a really good passive objective deck. Upgrades like slumbering key, destiny to meet, and tome of glories are also important tool for utilizing the blue horrors unique longevity. Even if you have an opponent trying to kill your blue horror so it can't get these upgrades, you not gain and advantage that he wasting alot of attack actions for 1 measly glory. which i do agree you want a more passive deck, i just think anything that involves holding objectives is so easy to mess up that it's not entirely worth going for any such game plan.

maybe they have good burst they can deploy warpfire cannons similar to what stormcast do with thier balista, but warpfire cannons hurt more and do nothing but mortal wounds at a longer range when they pop up. They also don't care about the character -1 to hit rule if you opponent loads up on 4 of those watch out for sure. If you go enlightend against that your shamans might not be long for this world. They do have lots of spooky shooting that might threaten your characters, but if they aren't loading up on the warpfire cannons i dont think you'll have to much issue.

That's pretty fair. I just think when I look at eyes of nine they seem like alittle bit of a worse shaven. So I think alternative win conditions might be the best angle to take?? Have you tried your deck??

i think with mirror of spite they might see what you have coming for them and ops not to kill the brimstone. Infact they might just kill the blue to nerf his attacks and then ignore the brimstone entirely. As the blue horror only does a damage with his attacks so pumping that up at all won't really get you too far. What if instead you focused on making him the barer of the tomes. with tome of disease you don't even have to roll dice to get his free damage in, and with all fo those movement jiggerdy pokedy you could easilty get him in range, and with the acolyte objective care you can score 4 glory off al lthe tomes on top of the glory you net from tome of glory. Lastly slumbering key and destiny to meat also seem like decent options

Yeah I knew that. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Was saying it might have been scarier if he took the 2nd turn and and aimed for the double. As I'd you move up it just makes his turn 1 alpha strike more threatening and if he gets the double he'd be likely to find whole to poke some dragon noses into your wizards.

Oh no no. So if you look like lower on page q or page 2 you can see some one made a page about this topic. Anyway its that the thrall list is kind of bad. Because on the charge you can barely only ever get 10 of those model into melee range meaning units of 20 just mean your paying double for 10 models just to get extra wounds, and having too many thralls on your side ends up ducking quick. Now you can reliably get a few more thralls into melee with the help of like 2 or 3 soul scryers.

nice report yeah definitly seems like list like that dragon list would need to count on a double turn to make it through our considerably decent screen. the good large bases on the kairic acolytes/pink horrors make them nice space filling screens for out wizard clumps. That said i think that game might have been considerably tougher if he could have gotten a double off on you?? not entirely sure though as i don't know the whole of the logistics.

You are right they put out hurt. Its not that they are bad for thier points. they are quiet decent. it's just right now they dont fit in with the eels, and stand alone thralls aren't good enough to be there own army due to surface area issues.

First and most importantly. Our turn 3 is amazing, but there is no reason for you to wait for turn 3 to start playing the game. A good alpha strike is very important, and as such ide advice taking a soulscryer to do. The thralls should only be in units of 10, as getting more than 10 in a fight is un realistic.

Oh yeah also i was thinking of hoping over to tzneetch from my ID. Not sure about it just yet, but putting out fillers. Mainly because the list for deepkin is very.... 1 turn?? Either it's all about turn 1 or turn 3 so i want something that gets more out of the game. Doing some research i'm figuring out what looks good. Was wondering if you folks could guidge me a bit in making a list or point me at units of note. Currently, i'm interested in a list featuring heavy summoning and magic. So i'm looking at units and trying to figure out what to take. Are pink horrors worth taking?? i guess with the arcane sacrafice the answer becomes maybe?? as you can quite start getting a good chunk of blue horrors on the field?? Otherwise they seem best left at home because it seems tough to get the blue horrors out of them other wise?? Enlightend on disc seem like the heavy hitters of the force and seem almost like the required beat stick for the army?? Sort of your horde, big thing stomping unit. Kairic acolytes seem like your durable tank/objective grabing light shooting back up. keep your coven of wizard mildly safe from alpha strikes. SO my list idea for hoping back into tzneetch would be: Lord of Change Artifact: arcane conjuration, Spell: Bolt of change Gaunt summoner general: Arcane sacrafice Spell: glimse the future Tzangor Shaman Spell: Fold reality Magister Spell: Shield of fate 10xPink Horror 10xkairic Acolytes 10xkairic acolytes 10xkairic acolytes 9x tzaangor enlightend umbral spell portal cogs +1cp 1940/2000pts I like the idea of turn 1 army wide +2 to cast to set up the portal reliably and get cogs running.

i believe the latest GT win was with morathi, 30 witches, 30 sisters of slaughter. Which scored better than the 90 witch list, so morathi doesn't make the list any easier to deal with for some armies. that said tzneetch against morathi is pretty easy as she has to auto transform.

shyish the realm of death i believe

You cant start them off the table ID can. With 2 soul scryers that means you can hop on from a table edge with +6" to your charge range rerolling. Even failing that you can just start on the table and still utilize that +6" to your charge along side a 14" move there are very very few situations where an ID army can't pull off a very effective charge if they'd like to. More over you could run royal court allowing you to get the effect of a sort of upgraded soul scryer.

I agree with this. Daughters to me just really can't deal with the deepkin alpha or a Deepkin turn 3 style play. Most armies don't bring shooting at all and the shooting they do bring (like kinari) aren't there to take out morathi they are just back field objective grabbing fodder. Not to mention you don't even need to kill morathi to win 90% of games against daughters. Honestly, if the army has morathi i'm happy that's not more pts of witches. The main killers of something like morathi is long range magic/mortal wounds. i started here i don't like it. The alpha is more important than the turn 3. The 12 eels is gear more toward turn 3 play as your are effectively wasting pts on ~6 eels that won't make it into combat against what you want to fight. In the current meta, when you fight something you klll it, instantly or stall for time. What this means is you want 6 eels in base to base with your target so that you can fully destroy the target unit. with a unit of 12 the extra 6 have a hard time getting in range to fight anything, and definitly won't be fighting your main target and the others on off shoot targets will be scattered and likely maybe 3-4 of them won't be in range to really get thier attacks off. Let alone set up in the first place via scryer. So that leaves waiting for turn 3 which 12 eels are better for as they are very good buff economy. Allowing you to do very effective buffing with only taking a generic king (the safer general option thank to cloud of midnight and soulscryer silliness). Howwever a few buffs on whats left on 6 eels tends to be more than enough to close out any deepkin game where you make it to turn 3. So the alpha strike or the early posturing seems to be more important than the big impact of turn 3. Making sure you don't fall behind in pts for instance such that the swing in your favor on turn 3 is enough to give you a win on pts, or taking out key big killy units like a block or 2 of 30 witchs on turn 1.

Acrobatics is about 1million% better than ethereal shield. Mainly because crits are so important and more dice means more crits. However you also have have cleave that ignores shields and the option of getting +2 to 3 dice via going on guard.

First dodge isn't bad infact <.< it's kind of tougher than shield if you think about it. I come from playing mostly skritch, and anyone who knows how that deck plays knows its basicly skritch against the world with lackies that can and do go die on occasion. I don't love last chance as i don't like holding the ploy in my hand for maybe 3 turns as that's 1 less power card you can refill with. I prefer the upgrades because you can drop them. As for damage upgrades i really don't like great strength and it's ilk and it's almost primarily only for the tzangor, and buffs on the leader your throwing out 2 dice hammers with no cleave <.< that's less than 50% chance of success against 1 shield die not to mention possibly needing to charge to get into range. I like the tznagors kill power though he's super strong just he's only got 3 wounds meaning lots of warbands with no upgrades can take him out in a turn. So i dont really want to throw him a lot buffs. Cards i love after reading what you two have to say: that said i do love glory seekers. It gives you +1 damage where you need it. Obviously abit dead it some situations, but when you need it, it's amazing and works on any one. Trap and pitfall trap perfect cards here anyone can score it, easy enough 1 damage to add to any model, and you don't need glory to use them. I still really like piercing bolt it's 1 less damge than inspired, but it has cleave and works on channel which is basicly like getting a support. very high success chance, and it with any good spell makes one start to consider getting an innate channel upgrade, but you really need 1 more good spell to come out that has a channel. abasoth's withering, shield of fate, sphere of azyr those are my go to spells. Deathly fortitude, acroback, sudden growth, soul traps, tethered spirit are go to defensive cards i think. Glory seeker, empowered sorcery, piercing bolt are good upgrades for the big guy, who i feel is the most reliable thing in the force thanks to his range allowing you to spam the attack action.

well actualy it only works on the piercing bolt ability, and not on the leaders attack. so you need an upgrade to get this card online.

So i'm trying to figure out making eyes of nine work. I won't be on the ground playing to much until like maybe two weeks from now. That said i want to start some science and get some opinions. Now having played the wizard stormcast and a lot during the shadespire days (way back when you know??). As i look at this warband i see a leader who is the main event for the force. The leader is so vital as he does really nice damage, score a good handful of every easy objectives, required to inspire a member of the warband, and is required to summon another. we are also very question with alot of dodge dice, but low wounds. going around being brave and standing on objectives seems unsafe and might be pretty short lived?? plus we are down action economy thanks to summoning the blue horror so we want every action to matter. Teamwise: the tzangor will be hoping to spawn near the leader, and likely you will want to employ alot of spell cards to inspire him as he is a VERY powerful model when inspires with his inspired reroll making him a kill tastic card as 2 dice rerolling is very likely to make it through. The blue horror also changes your action economy unlike other revive mechanics this one is actualy worth doing in most situations. Like skaven you can spawn any where, but unlike skaven or skeletons this guy requires ~2 enemy actions to take out. I'm not sure if his summon twice objective is worth taking or not. On one hand it's an easy one to use, however if your opponent suspects you are using it he is easy to ignore. Upgrade wise he really can't get a lot of serious damage in. Upgrade wise he can run kataphrane cards like the tomes or relics if you were so inclined as he can be brought back. Allowing another option for victory. He ties well again with the kataphrane objective card as the holder of tomes and he works well as a key holder. The acolytes have very poor action economy. Realistically i see them almost exclusively used to charge, potentially doing damage, but more for a support or just to get into a good position. Out side of this i suspect they will be used as rook for bound by fate to swap places for your leader. i also see chosen by destiny to be popular as it won't be too difficult to score this. Inspiring these guys i think should not be any sort of priority, but more just something that happens as a plus. If you were to use them they could do throw away weapons like shadeglass hammer or something. Objectives faction: again kataphrane acolyte of katophrane seems very realistic with the blue horror/brimstone eyes of the master seems doable with the brimstone but not sure if it's worth taking?? Summoner as said before is weird. If they know you have it, it seems pretty dead, but if your taking something like eyes of the master you can kill multiple stones getting both of these off. Simarily, chosen by destiny is the same sort of this as above. rising inferno, agents of change, and master of magic are almost the same cards and are auto includes, and might be the point go going tzneetch, Other objectives i'm meh on?? ploy cards: Blessing of tzeentch is as good as you can get for instance works well with piercing bolt to make it an auto hitting attack for that round. Is as good as channel source spells as you have in your ploy deck. Might not take it unless i have 5 or more cards that want a channel bound by fate is great helps keep your king alive by doing the chess castle move to get away or to get into range for a quick spell. I think with the long range any amount of movement cheese should get you in range to launch attacks with out needing to commit to a charge move. Deceitful step is the sane as above. wracking charge is a spell that does damage to anyone, great for getting over damage hurtles. need and innate channe lto be reliable see blessing of tzneetch. Also goes with objectives of casting lots of spells. shield of fate is reliable to get off and keeps your leader alive. Ravenous flames not amazing, but it's easy and does damage. Those are my thoughts and many might be wrong. What do you folks think??

They would be good on 25s but I like them on 32s. I think as a power house at 10 man they do that job well. For 140pts you'll have a hard time finding something that his like thralls do. Really the thrall support system just needs a price drop. 80 point soulrender and cheaper lotann. From there honestly even now thralls have some decent tools available to them. 2 or 3 soulscryers can see thralls doing something very similar to the sequaitor/evocator bomb right now. As for reavers all shooting needs a very tiny pts drop as a whole. As I've said else where reavers are actualy quite amazing shooting as they rival some of the best shooting unit damage out put if you look at them over 2 turns, but they also pack a pretty great punch in melee when compared to said shooting units.

I'd say it's a mix of both right??? Its about know when and where you can alpha strike, and what you need to alpha strike. Which armies require an alpha strike of you, and which armies maybe it's better to sit and get a good angle. No matter what to be successful you need to have the option to alpha strike, as with out ability to leverage boats we can divide the deployment zones in such favorable ways as to give us the space we need to alpha. That said if you opponent is pretty well turtled up alpha striking and just end up seeing you quite very shattered, and in which cases taking a multiple turn approach that trys to get a good turn 3 off might be the best bet. As for enclave i have been loving ionrach quiet a lot now that i'm back in the swing with my deepkin. The +1 to cast is a significant factor in the success of my aspect of the sea list. Getting him up with steed of tides and throwing down tsunami, and then charging turn one is decently consistent and really helps with the above alphra strike. As the aspect can join in on the charge thanks to the steed of tides move. plus i'm running 2 tide casters with a vortex, and some allies and i'd been having some great success with my current list. Still working out what allies i prefer more.

i dont play stormcast much, but i've been spying this list curiously. Now doesn't the vanguard conclave no longer have the +1 to wound?? making it kind of meh?? Additionaly i wonder why you don't strive to fit in a hurricanum??

hey sorry never responded to this and i wanted to. I think 3 morrsarr isn't enough to do anything with. So i don't really like the 2nd list, and in both list anywhere i see 3xmorrsarr i'd say go 3ishlaen. You need like a good 6 to do enough damage to really matter. Ishlaen do a great job blocking or locking down units around your initial morrsarr charge. Such that the morrsarr can deal with hopefully only one unit at a time.

yeah but you missed the point. What i said was you can make it so that thralls are as good as morrsarr. Or i should say GW could. GW could make morrsarr cost 180 for 3. The morrsarr are still good but a thrall list could also be good. or make thralls cost 120 etc. Either way by making one worse or the other better they aren't nessarily mutualy exclusive to one another. It's not sub optimal its that both are optimal list that play the game differently within the same faction. Skeletons and sombie, sequaitors and liberators, paladins retributors, gors and bestigors, etc all fill a pretty similar purpose to eachother this purpose is so similar that one will ALWAYS just be the better choice. there is no grey area. Heck look at chimera vs the other behmoths in the beast man list. It's like why would you take them over a chimera it's just so much better. Conversely sequators are good, but evocators are also good. That said they both can exist in the same exact meta and be good together even in the same exact list. One does not make taking the other seems like a bad idea because you bring them for completely different reasons and the other doesn't make. Similarly thralls and morrsarr while they generaly wouldn't be in the same list as they both denote a very different game plan. There is a realistic world where a slower regening horde of thralls/reavers list could exist along side a morrsarr/ishlaen fast pin you down ID list. This though is only an issue of balance. There is no balance that makes a zombie list vs a skeleton list in LoN. As if you make zombies good than you'd take zombies of skeletons, and the opposite is true, because they do the exact same thing. They ahve the exact same purpose. The way you could use zombie compelingly is if you had a faction that was specificly zombies. It's out purpose and in big book with tons of very similar units. There simply isn't enough of a purpose in any given game of AoS to suppost HUGE armies with 20+ unit factions. It just won't work and some units will be completely relegated out of purpose as they will be sub optimal with no reason to take them over the better choice. TLDR: Morrsarr vs thralls are two different game plans. If you do a magic the gather reference it's like playing aggro blue vs control blue both are good, but the cards in one deck are mutual exclusive to the other becuase the plan different. Skeletons/zombie, sequators/liberators, chimera/all the other monsters in beast of chaos, and evocators/paladins all do the exact same thing as their counter part there is nothing subtle about thier difference from one another, and as such they will always be at odds with each other and there will also be a clear winner and loser. The lose will be relegated to uselessness. They can't exist together. Make smaller factions with ever unit having a purpose all it's own.

Sure but there is room there to make a reason to take reavers and thralls right?? Like reacers and thralls can be used become a more durable, horde style recurrsion list. A different list for the same faction that give it another very different way of playing than the eel list. There is a whole suit of synergy for thralls/reavers. Scryers letting yo uget 20 +9" to thier charge so you can actualy get 20 thralls on the board to all attack turn 1, With turtle and reavers backing up the thralls. Tidec aster general switch the tides so the reavers can run and shoot turn 1, and the turtle gives cover you would normaly lose. Then turn 2 you strike first with a blender of thralls to contend with. The main thing is that currently thralls maybe are to expensive or eels are too cheap right now. There is atleast a semi competive thrall/reaver list that could go 3 out of 5 wins at a tournament. DoK i don't know so well, but poor units like that i'd say should be scrapped of given purpose. Maytbe giving they synergy with the melee snake for instance. That give both a real and compeling purpose.