Using sword of unholy

[Oppenheimer]

On 2017-5-7 at 8:36 AM, Sception said:

but anyway, yeah, mourngul, morghasts, or beasts-of-the-grave terrorgheist are usually the best options, imo.

How can you summon beast of the grave terrorgheist since it does not have any points in the GHB?

[Sception]

Last I checked, it has points in the app, which as far as I understand it is considered a valid primary rules source.

[deynon]

44 minutes ago, Oppenheimer said:

How can you summon beast of the grave terrorgheist since it does not have any points in the GHB?

it has points. There is only a terrogheist , and both models are named so, so that name associated to different warscroll grant points.
Moreover based on the period on the app sometimes is the beast of grave or the FEC one to have those points associated to.

@Sception: it's you to read more than is written in the spell and in the sword. You continue to quote it, but you yourself don't read what you quote.

[Sception]

What is your argument based on?  Walk through it from quoted text.  Go line by line.  Argue it from the text.  You haven't done that once yet in this thread, and you keep making arguments and assertions that have nothing to do with the text of the rules in question.

to make the basic summon you have to roll dice too. 

This has no basis in the spell text.

if the spall has more option you choices, simple.

The spell doesn't have options or choices, it has effects and conditional bonus effects.  Nothing in the swords description allows you to get the bonus effects without meeting their condition.

The spell grant two summoning levels.

Nothing in the spell text states this.  There are not two spells.  There are not two levels.  There are not two casting values.

to cast you have to roll technically speaking

technically nothing, you're just making things up here.  Rolling is the normal way to cast a spell.  The sword provides an alternate way to cast the spell without rolling.  you do not roll when casting a spell with the sword, therefor you do not have a roll result, it really is as simple as that.

The only effect the sowrd say you cast successfully

You said this, but you do not understand it.  You cast the spell successfully.  That.  is.  all.  Read the spell to see what happens when you cast the spell successfully.

You cast automatically, so every result is included.

There is only one spell, only one casting value, only one result.  That result is the entire text of the spell, including the conditional if statement that doesn't allow you to summon more than 5 wraiths unless you had a high casting roll, which you do. not. have.

You realize an automatical success, why should be it only basic level?

where are you getting 'basic level' from?  There are not two 'level's of the spell.  Where in the spell text does it talk about 'levels', basic or otherwise?  Where does the word 'level' appear in the spell description?

you gain directly any result

Where does it say this in the sword's description?  Quote it.

but you forget that also the basic cast reuqires rolling

NO IT DOESN'T.  YOU MADE THIS UP.

Read the spell, and quote to me where you think it says this.  Using the words.  From the spell.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you're imagining a lack of clarity that isn't there.  You've invented the notion that the normal effect of the spell is dependent on what your casting roll was, but that isn't anywhere in the spell description.  The normal effect is from casting the spell successfully.  The sword lets you cast the spell successfully, so you do what the spell tells you to do when you cast the spell successfully.

Automatically meas that you roll automatically what you need

Again, you made this up out of nothing.  Automatically means the spell happens, that is all.  there is no reference to the casting roll or result in the swords description to justify a claim that it exists at all.  You do not roll for automatically, so there is no casting roll result.  There is no result of 6, no result of 11, no result of 0, no result of 13.  There is no result, because there is no roll, there is only the effect of the spell, which tells you what to do when it is successfully cast.

quote: "If successfully cast, you can set up a unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths"

 

Imagine if the enemy had an anti-wizard ability that said "every time a model makes a casting roll, that model takes a mortal wound".  Would using the sword cause your model to take the wound?  The answer is no, because you didn't make a casting roll.  The sword let you cast the spell automatically, without making any roll at all.

[Oppenheimer]

2 hours ago, Sception said:

Last I checked, it has points in the app, which as far as I understand it is considered a valid primary rules source.

I don't have the app just the GHB. In there it's only under the Flesheater courts section and that version has different rules than the beasts of the grave version. Are they the same points in both sections?

[Sception]

Both are listed at 320 points in the app.

[Oppenheimer]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Both are listed at 320 points in the app.

Well that's fantastic! And with its scream being 10" range it can scream the turn it is summoned. I'm going to have to try this out.

[Sception]

It's pretty effective and can really take an opponent unawares.  Works well with a catapult or two to lower bravery.

[Ben]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE THAT HALF OF YOU THINK ITS ONE WAY AND THE OTHER HALF THINK ITS THE OTHER.

ANYMORE OF THIS MERRY GO ROUND I AND I WILL HAVE TO LOCK THE THREAD AS ALL IT IS DOING IS DESCENDING INTO AN ARGUMENT.

 

PLEASE TRY AND PLAY NICE.  

[Arkiham]

i read it as the spell being the base number, so the lower one.

It just states that if you happen to roll high you can deploy more. it's the roll which grants you additional deployment not the spell, so if you wanted to deploy the higher amount i'd ask you what your casting roll was...

And if an opponent wanted to say that you can use the higher amount i'd insist on them declaring if they are rolling for the boosted version or not. just like in 8th edition. 

[deynon]

On 10/5/2017 at 0:12 PM, Arkiham said:

i read it as the spell being the base number, so the lower one.

It just states that if you happen to roll high you can deploy more. it's the roll which grants you additional deployment not the spell, so if you wanted to deploy the higher amount i'd ask you what your casting roll was...

And if an opponent wanted to say that you can use the higher amount i'd insist on them declaring if they are rolling for the boosted version or not. just like in 8th edition. 

And i can ask you what i rolled to obtain the basic one? And guess.. you can't answer to it^^

[Arkiham]

12 minutes ago, deynon said:

And i can ask you what i rolled to obtain the basic one? And guess.. you can't answer to it^^

No roll required, as the spell is successfully cast (which the sword does as per the description on the item) as that's the spell,  the larger deployment is based entirely on your dice result when attempting to cast the spell.

It makes that clear in spell

In order to deploy the higher amount, it says " if your casting roll was x or more" soon as you're not using a roll to cast you can't deploy the higher amount.

Play it how you want but I doubt you'll get away with it tournament level.

[deynon]

Just now, Arkiham said:

No roll required, as the spell is successfully cast (which the sword does as per the description on the item) as that's the spell,  the larger deployment is based entirely on your dice result when attempting to cast the spell.

It makes that clear in spell

In order to deploy the higher amount, it says " if your casting roll was x or more" soon as you're not using a roll to cast you can't deploy the higher amount.

Play it how you want but I doubt you'll get away with it tournament level.

You are wronf here. To cast a spell you nee to roll. So if you say that you require rolling to have the second lvel cast... beh, you are contradicting yourself.

Also the first step is based on your dice result. No different at all.

The tournaments have to point such things in their rules beforehandeventually, otherways thei can't contest it. Moreover the TO offten modify the rules, so their not what to look at. I've seen plenty of tournament applying wrong interplrations or own alteration of the rules during the years, in every game. And it change based nation, period, and so on...

So you're saying is totally useless. There are rules as they are and HR. 

You are creating a HR.

USrely a FAQ would help, but you can't claim your one is the way to do, at all.

[Sception]

No.  The normal process for casting the spell involves rolling.  The sword is a special case where the spell is cast automatically, and thus without rolling.  The normal effect of the spell is not based on your casting roll, it's based on successfully casting the spell.  There is no ambiguity.  It's all in the text of both rules.  Read them, then quote from them where you think they say otherwise.  Argue from the actual rules, with quotes from the actual rules.

[Arkiham]

5 hours ago, deynon said:

You are wronf here. To cast a spell you nee to roll. So if you say that you require rolling to have the second lvel cast... beh, you are contradicting yourself.

Also the first step is based on your dice result. No different at all.

The tournaments have to point such things in their rules beforehandeventually, otherways thei can't contest it. Moreover the TO offten modify the rules, so their not what to look at. I've seen plenty of tournament applying wrong interplrations or own alteration of the rules during the years, in every game. And it change based nation, period, and so on...

So you're saying is totally useless. There are rules as they are and HR. 

You are creating a HR.

USrely a FAQ would help, but you can't claim your one is the way to do, at all.

Yes.

I am saying you need a roll to trigger the higher deployment. 

As the sword allows you to cast the spell the spell is the lower roll. But you don't need to roll as of the sword.

The ability to deploy the higher amount is entirely based off the dice roll, but as you aren't  rolling you can't do it.

 

It's clear you do not care, you've two people explaining how it works and you're using your own interpretation to bend the rules to your advantage.

Play it how you want. 

 

[TerrorPenguin]

Guys, seriously.

The only outcome here is - I play it this way, you play it another. As long as your opponent agrees who cares what one person does in a game of warhammer half way across the globe.

 

[FRoper]

who has this sword or is it an artifact as i do not have my GH on me at the moment??

[Sception]

The sword is one of the Death Alliance allegiance artefacts from the generals handbook.  It's rules text is quoted in the first page of this thread.

......

We can't discuss the sword without agreement on what it does and doesn't do.  More generally, we can't discuss how any aspect of the game functions without a commitment to follow the rules as written, because that is the only thing we share.  In a local for fun situation I wouldn't argue it, I'd rather just play the game because having fun trumps what the rules say regardless, and letting the sword summon 10 hexwraiths, even if that isn't what the rules actually say, isn't broken or anything, and personally I'd like to see the undead cav run more as ime they don't get much play.  In a tournament situation there will be a tournament judge to give a binding ruling that trumps what the rules say regardless.

But in abstract discussion on the internet, there is no arbiter other than the rules, there has to be a commitment to follow them, or at least to visibly call out any in-effect house rules AS house rules, or else the discussion becomes uninformative, or worse deliberately misinformative.

'Agree to disagree' as a resolution only makes sense when there is any ambiguity within the rules as written, and in this case there is not.  There is an interpretation based on what the rules in question actually say:

the spell is cast automatically, when the spell is cast you may set up a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths, you may only set up more than that if the casting roll was above 11, which it was not because you didn't make a casting roll you used the sword to cast the spell automatically instead

and another interpretation based on reasoning that is entirely made up and does not appear anywhere in the rules:

that all spells have a casting roll even if you didn't roll to cast them (nothing says this), that the sword lets you pick any casting result you want to fill this dummy casting roll (nothing in the sword implies this, because there's no need for a dummy casting value in the first place), that the conditional bonus effect to summon up to 10 hexwraiths if your casting roll was 11 or more represents a different 'level' of the spell or some sort of second casting value and thus effectively a second spell (neither is the case, summon hexwraiths is a single spell with a single casting value, everything else, including the conditional statement, is part of a single spell description), that the normal effect of summoning up to 5 hexwraiths is equally dependent on your casting roll (it is not, it is only dependent on successfully casting the spell, which the sword lets you do automatically without rolling at all).