Using sword of unholy

[thommo21]

When using sword of unholy power, can i setup a unit of 10 hexwraiths?

[Sception]

no.  there is no casting roll, so the casting roll cannot be X or higher.  as such, the sword is best used for summoning monsters like a terrorgheist or mourngul.

[deynon]

Here I disagree, you can. It's an automatic summon. Tecnically you don't roll even for the basic summon so say that there's no rolling is useless.

You automatically summon, so you automatically realize every number you need so yes, you can summon 10 Hexwraith if you have the points needed to do it.

[Karhedron]

I would be tempted to summon Morghast Harbingers to increase the odds of making that crucial charge on 3D6" instead of 2D6.

[deynon]

27 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I would be tempted to summon Morghast Harbingers to increase the odds of making that crucial charge on 3D6" instead of 2D6.

it's a common use to do such. I magnetized Morghasts so to be able to switch the models without needing to have multiple of them.

 

[Sception]

13 hours ago, deynon said:

Here I disagree, you can. It's an automatic summon. Tecnically you don't roll even for the basic summon so say that there's no rolling is useless.

You automatically summon, so you automatically realize every number you need so yes, you can summon 10 Hexwraith if you have the points needed to do it.

Nothing in either the spell or the item implies this.

To quote:

"Summon Hexwraiths has a casting value
of 6. If successfully cast, you can set up a
unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths within 18" of
the caster and more than 9" away from
the enemy. The unit is added to your
army, but cannot move in the following
movement phase. If the casting roll was
11 or more, set up a unit of up to 10
Hexwraiths instead."

and the sword:

"Once per battle, in their hero phase, the
bearer is allowed to cast a spell that
summons models with the Death keyword
to the battlefield.  This is in addition to the
spells the bearer can normally cast.  The
spell is cast automatically and cannot be
dispelled."

The sword says your spell is automatically successfully cast.  That is all, nothing about it being cast as though with any particular casting value, nothing about additional effects, just that you cast the spell.  So you get the effect of successfully casting the spell, and nothing more.

So the spell is successfully cast.  What happens?  "You can set up a unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths within 18" of the caster and more than 9" from the enemy."  That's what happens when you successfully cast this spell, unless the spell was cast with a casting roll of 11 or more.  Since there was no casting roll, by default that means there was no casting roll of 11 or more, so that part doesn't happen.  For the sword to activate that added effect without an actual casting roll, it would have to say so, and it doesn't say anything of the kind.

Barring some errata that I'm not aware of, you get the base effect of the summoning spell used, nothing more.

[deynon]

You successsufully cast, so id automatically it doesn't mean you gain the minimum value. You don't get a value att all, so you decide what value it represent.

 

You continue to point on the small vlaue itself, but you don't roll even for the basic one if you point on it. So you can't point the rolling as a neccessary condition.

 

And you can't deny it, cause to make the basic summon you have to roll dice too. 

You don't roll in both cases, so your argument here is invalid. And the sowrd doesn't say that it automatically cast the lowest summon, but simply "cast a spell"; if the spall has more option you choices, simple.

 

Doesn't exist any errata that can substain your version, so you can't point it as the "real" one. Your arguments are totally invalid cause you claim sumething that you still need to realize the basic one.

[Countmoore]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

 

So the spell is successfully cast.  What happens?  "You can set up a unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths within 18" of the caster and more than 9" from the enemy."  That's what happens when you successfully cast this spell, unless the spell was cast with a casting roll of 11 or more.  Since there was no casting roll, by default that means there was no casting roll of 11 or more, so that part doesn't happen.  For the sword to activate that added effect without an actual casting roll, it would have to say so, and it doesn't say anything of the kind.

Barring some errata that I'm not aware of, you get the base effect of the summoning spell used, nothing more.

Edited 1 hour ago by Sception

This is correct. And as stated already better to save for the big monsters though also useful if you play say Deathrattle and want to summon in a none Deathrattle unit. 

[Sutek]

I'd use the sword to summon a unit of Morghast Archai and then use the +1 to summon they give you to help with summoning the Hexwraiths.

[Sception]

that's a good tactic as well.  you can theoretically do the same with harbingers, though their added charge range means that if you're trying to summon harbingers, then you're probably also trying to throw them into a forward position where you won't be benefitting from that rule off of them.

 

but anyway, yeah, mourngul, morghasts, or beasts-of-the-grave terrorgheist are usually the best options, imo.

[Sception]

4 hours ago, deynon said:

You successsufully cast, so id automatically it doesn't mean you gain the minimum value. You don't get a value att all, so you decide what value it represent.

This is not accurate.  Nothing in the sword says you pick the value.  And the base value isn't dependent on the casting roll, that's just the effect of the spell.  The spell doesn't say "if the casting value was less than 11 summon 5"  it just says summon 5.  summoning 5 is the default effect of the spell.  summoning 5 is what happens when you cast the spell, unless a high casting roll triggers the other thing, which never has the chance to happen when you use the sword.

[deynon]

Just now, Sception said:

This is not accurate.  Nothing in the sword says you pick the value.  And the base value isn't dependent on the casting roll, that's just the effect of the spell.  The spell doesn't say "if the casting value was less than 11 summon 5"  it just says summon 5.  summoning 5 is the default effect of the spell.  summoning 5 is what happens when you cast the spell, unless a high casting roll triggers the other thing, which never has the chance to happen when you use the sword.

"nothing say you pick the value" so you pick any value, also 5 is picking the value. 

The spell grant two summoning levels. Both are successful ones. To realuze the first value you should anyway roll dice, you can't use such as an excuse.

No, casting 5 is the minimum, but the spell is both vakues, not half of it. You don't need to trigger, you automatically do.

 

To cast you have to roll dice anyway, you don.t do. There's no difference between first and second level casting: you choose the result to apply.

[Sception]

you don't pick a value.  You cast the spell with no casting roll.  there is no casting roll, there is no casting value, you get the default effect of the spell when there is no roll, which is summoning 5.

Again read the spell, it tells you exactly what happens:

"If successfully cast, you can set up a
unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths"

you successfully cast the spell, as per the sword's rules, so that's what happens.  you set up a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths.  you didn't choose that, I didn't choose that, that's just what the spell itself says it does.

[TerrorPenguin]

Haven't we discussed this before? At length? 

[deynon]

5 hours ago, Sception said:

you don't pick a value.  You cast the spell with no casting roll.  there is no casting roll, there is no casting value, you get the default effect of the spell when there is no roll, which is summoning 5.

Again read the spell, it tells you exactly what happens:

"If successfully cast, you can set up a
unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths"

you successfully cast the spell, as per the sword's rules, so that's what happens.  you set up a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths.  you didn't choose that, I didn't choose that, that's just what the spell itself says it does.

If you dont' pick a value, every value is avalaible. You cast the spell, the spell has a casting roll, you have to have a minimum result of the casting roll, simply you don't throw the dice.

If you don't roll dice you can't even gain 5 so you can't summoning cause it require rolling as rule; the same as rolling 10+.

 

Read also later, you stop to the first instruction.

 

The spell is the total spell not only a part of the spell.  What you say it's not the spell, it's only half the spell, it's completely different. As saying the alphabet is not grom A to Z, but from A to B.

 

5 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Haven't we discussed this before? At length? 

We did. And again his motivations are simply faults.

[Sception]

What motivations?  My only motivation is that people reading this discussion be aware of what the rules actually say on the matter, which is why I copied them both above.

Did you successfully cast the spell?  Yes.  The sword says that.  What does the spell say it does when you successfully cast it?  The spell says that when you successfully cast it, that you can summon a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths.  That part of the spell doesn't care about your casting roll, so it doesn't care that there wasn't a casting roll at all.

The spell then says you can instead summon up to 10 if your casting roll was 11 or higher.  Was your casting roll 11 or higher?  No.  Because there was no casting roll.  There was no casting roll, therefore there was no casting roll of 11 or higher, therefore you do not get the option to summon up to 10 hexwraiths instead of the up to 5 you get for successfully casting the spell.

A casting roll you don't make cannot be 11 or higher.  Nor can it be 10 or lower.  It cannot be 3 or 94.  It cannot even be zero.  It cannot be anything at all, because it doesn't exist.  If there is no casting roll, then any additional effects that are dependent on the casting role, whether those effects be triggered by low rolls or high rolls or doubles or whatever, none of those additional effects happen at all.  The only effects you get, the only effects the sword says you get, are the effects for casting the spell successfully.  And that is summoning a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths.

[deynon]

No, you are giving a misunderstanding of the rules you written. The rules are such, but they not say what you substain.

THe spell is ALL the spell not a part. Not mind 5 or 10, the spell is successufl. you continue to call the rolling, but you don't roll also the 5, and to cast you have to roll technically speaking you should not be able to cast if you value what you say.

Whas you casting a 5? No. You don't roll any dice so you can't call a rolling anyway. 5, 10, 11+, doesn't mind. The spell is all the spell, not only part of the spell. It's automatically a success, so every result is avalaible. Even if for same reason you should realis a 13+ on 2 dice you would realise it.

It can be 3or 94 cause it's automatically success, doesn't have limit about it.

The only effect the sowrd say you cast successfully, every other thing is your adding to thee sword and the spell. And those are things those are not in both sword and spell.

You cast automatically, whatever result you need you have, it would be 5, 10, 50 or infinite.

 

Again, your motivation is invalid.

[Sception]

Where do the rules for the sword say that you get to choose a casting value for the casting roll you didn't make?  Where does it say there is a casting result at all?

Your argument is founded on an unnecessary assumption that every spell cast absolutely must have a casting roll result, such that if no roll was made then the result must be determined arbitrarily, and further on your wishful thinking that this arbitrary result must of course be whatever is most beneficial to you, but there is nothing in the rules to imply any of this.  You are imagining a gap in the rules where none actually exists and then filling that gap with the interpretation you judge to be most beneficial.

But there is nothing to suggest that every spell must always have an associated casting roll result.  Sure, most will, as that is how spells are normally cast, but nothing in the rules implies that this must be the case, and in fact this sword is the primary exception whereby spells are cast with no casting roll what so ever.  There is no contradiction in that.

And yes, every part of the spell text results.  But I'm not the one ignoring part of the spell text, you are.  Specifically this part: "If the casting roll was 11 or more,".  A casting roll you never make cannot be 11 of more, and nothing about that conflicts with casting the spell 'successfully'.  The spell is 100% explicit as to what happens when you successfully cast the spell, but did so without a casting roll of 11 or more, which is by necessity the case when the spell was cast without a casting roll at all.

[deynon]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Where do the rules for the sword say that you get to choose a casting value for the casting roll you didn't make?  Where does it say there is a casting result at all?

Your argument is founded on an unnecessary assumption that every spell cast absolutely must have a casting roll result, such that if no roll was made then the result must be determined arbitrarily, and further on your wishful thinking that this arbitrary result must of course be whatever is most beneficial to you, but there is nothing in the rules to imply any of this.  You are imagining a gap in the rules where none actually exists and then filling that gap with the interpretation you judge to be most beneficial.

But there is nothing to suggest that every spell must always have an associated casting roll result.  Sure, most will, as that is how spells are normally cast, but nothing in the rules implies that this must be the case, and in fact this sword is the primary exception whereby spells are cast with no casting roll what so ever.  There is no contradiction in that.

And yes, every part of the spell text results.  But I'm not the one ignoring part of the spell text, you are.  Specifically this part: "If the casting roll was 11 or more,".  A casting roll you never make cannot be 11 of more, and nothing about that conflicts with casting the spell 'successfully'.  The spell is 100% explicit as to what happens when you successfully cast the spell, but did so without a casting roll of 11 or more, which is by necessity the case when the spell was cast without a casting roll at all.

You cast automatically, so every result is included.

I question you: where is wirtten is only the minimum casting?  Where is wirtten there is a casting result at all?

 

It's you who try to force a prefeict result.

Unnecessary assumption is your one. You decided arbitrarly that the second level is not a cast result, but such it is. You dont roll even for the basic form, so technically you can't use the summon cause.. gues.. you have to roll to cast...

Cast value5, means: if the casting roll is 5+...

ah...guessing... if yu havebonus or malus to casting.. what do you do? cause technically your casting base on waht you say has to bee 11+ so no malus or bonus counted, but natural throwing...

Wait... automatically casting... it's rolling every number you need... so...

The spell is explicit, it's you who are not.

YOu don't roll in any case. So both valid or both invalid.

[Sception]

it isn't cast with the minimum casting value, it isn't cast with any casting value at all.  it is only cast "successfully."

From there, it's simply a matter of reading the spell description.

Quote

"Summon Hexwraiths has a casting value of 6."

we aren't casting the spell with a casting roll, so this is irrelevant.

Quote

"If successfully cast,"

Was the spell successfully cast?  The sword says we cast the spell without making a casting roll, and without the opponent having an opportunity to unbind, so unless some other special ability activates to cancel the spell, it will be cast successfully.  So this if statement is answered in the affirmative.  What does that do?

Quote

"If successfully cast, you can set up a unit of up to 5 Hexwraiths within 18" of the caster and more than 9" away from the enemy. The unit is added to your army, but cannot move in the following movement phase."

Alright, we successfully cast the spell, so it says we set up a unit of up to 5 hexwraiths.  Is there anything else?

Quote

"If the casting roll was 11 or more,"

Was the casting roll 11 or more?  Well, there was no casting roll at all, so the answer to this is uniquivocably NO.  So whatever effects are contingent on this if statement do not happen.

This is not because we're ignoring part of the spell description, but rather because we are applying ALL of it.  The 'if' statement that opens this sentence is PART of the spell description.  Checking to see if the casting roll was 11 or more isn't part of casting the spell, it's part of resolving it.  Doing everything the spell tells you to do necessarily includes checking for that condition, and not doing the part that follows if that condition isn't met.  So,

Quote

"If the casting roll was 11 or more, set up a unit of up to 10 Hexwraiths instead."

Was the casting roll 11 or more?  There was no casting roll, therefore there was no casting roll of 11 or more, therefore you do not set up a unit of up to 10 Hexwraiths instead.

Please note that absolutely nothing in the spell description is contingent on a casting roll of less than 11.  Summoning 5 hexwraiths isn't something you only do if you roll low, if is the normal, default application of the spell.  Summoning up to 5 hexwraiths is what the spell allows you to do if you successfully cast the spell, regardless of what your casting roll was, and, more importantly for this discussion, regardless of whether there was even a casting roll at all.

[patsfan32]

Yeah with the way it is worded the spell is a 2 level activation. Level one activates on a successful cast, the second level activates on the 11+. The sword auto clears level one but does not supply the necessary requirements to fulfil level 2.

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[ChippyRick]

This is interesting, and something I would love to see GW put an official stamp on. Initially I would have said only the standard summoning would have been given from the sword, but the more I think about it and read this thread I am leaning towards it being either. There is nothing saying about numbers, its purely an auto cast and the caster chooses. 

I think this is how i would go with it now unless I am shown otherwise.

[deynon]

1 hour ago, patsfan32 said:

Yeah with the way it is worded the spell is a 2 level activation. Level one activates on a successful cast, the second level activates on the 11+. The sword auto clears level one but does not supply the necessary requirements to fulfil level 2.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

And where its is written? 

You realize an automatical success, why should be it only basic level?

In any case you need to roll to cast. If you realize 5+ you can summon, 10+ you can summon more. You can automatically ralize both the results.

You don't need to fill any nrequirements, you gain directly any result cause you have all possibly results needed, you automatically success, not mind the difficulty of the requirements.

1 hour ago, ChippyRick said:

This is interesting, and something I would love to see GW put an official stamp on. Initially I would have said only the standard summoning would have been given from the sword, but the more I think about it and read this thread I am leaning towards it being either. There is nothing saying about numbers, its purely an auto cast and the caster chooses. 

I think this is how i would go with it now unless I am shown otherwise.

I agree obviously

 

 

@Sception: you contradict yourself. You continue to justify that the second level is without rolling, but you forget that also the basic cast reuqires rolling. You don't  roll for the first as you don't roll for the second level. Based on what you say you should be forced if you normally roll 11+ to be aply exclusively the second level and such it isn't by the rules.

In any case you consider it you automatically obtain whatever result you need cause you can't base your reasons on the rolling, cause the spell itself it would require rolling to success in that way. It's you who put shackles on the sword and the spell, it's not what them say.

Nothing is about causting less then 11? Are you serious? 

Automatically meas that you roll automatically what you need. If it would for it you wouldnìt be able to cast at all, cause you need to roll to cast. SO whatever level and whatever result it requires you realize it.

[ChippyRick]

I dont think it is really worth discussing, its clearly something that just needs an FAQ on and then we follow.

ATM i will definitely being leaning towards summoning numbers you want, there isnt anything clear stating limits.

[Sception]

There is something clear that states the limits!  It's the spell description!  Just read it!

This isn't a spell with different 'levels'.

This isn't a spell with two different casting values.

Summon Hexwraiths only has only one casting value, and that casting value is 6.  Everything else is a description of the spell effect, including asking if the casting roll was 11 or more.  That isn't a second casting value, it's a conditional effect of the spell, you can't just ignore the requirement of that condition without some rule that specifically allows you to do so any more than you can ignore the spell's range.

READ THE SPELL.

Just, seriously, read the spell description.  For pete's sake, read it.  I've quoted it plenty of times.  It doesn't say "summon 5 if your casting roll was less then 11, or 10 if your casting roll was 11 or more".  If it said that, you'd have a leg to stand on here.  If it said that, there'd actually be a lack of clarity in the rules that would justify making up some sort of imagined dummy casting roll to fill the gap.  Neither is it two different spells at two different casting values, such that you could pick which of the 'versions' you wanted to cast with the sword.

Neither of those things is the case at all.

There is only one spell.  There is only one casting value.  If you use the sword to cast the spell, you have to follow ALL of the spells description for casting the spell successfully, INCLUDING only getting to summon 10 hexwraiths if you had a casting roll of 11 or more, which you absolutely did not.

Summoning up to 5 doesn't require a casting roll of 6 to 10, it doesn't require any casting roll at all, it only requires the spell to be cast successfully.  The sword lets you cast the spell successfully, so you can summon up to 5.  The sword doesn't give you a casting roll at all, so you cannot meet the requirement to summon up to 10.

There is no ambiguity anywhere within this interaction that isn't a mirage arising from wishful thinking.