Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[Keldaur]

8 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Yes but it is not a named character. Named characters are the only models which cannot take artifacts and traits.

I am moving so I can't check the GHB or books, but does it state named as the restriction or unique? The list builder doesn't allow you to give him artifacts or traits.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Keldaur said:

I am moving so I can't check the GHB or books, but does it state named as the restriction or unique? The list builder doesn't allow you to give him artifacts or traits.

the list builder is rubbish. and its not the book or matched play profiles which are the rules. 

 

too many people use scroll builder as gospel and treat it as the word of law. 

 

as it stands, the exalted greater daemons can take items, unique or not. specifically, as there is no passage of text telling us they cannot take items, traits as they are named characters. 

 

being unique is not a limiter

being only allowed to take x number of models is not a limiter

 

the passage of text in each battletome telling us who are the named characters or actually having a name ( exalted greater daemon of * enter god name *  is not a name, more so as it is said in books that there is multiples of them, for instance, 8 exalted greater daemons of khorne, with lore accompanying it to explain who they are and what sets them apart from the normal bloodthirtster riff raff ) is a limitor. and unless we get an FAQ telling us otherwise the only limiter.

 

sorry if this comes across as aggressive 

I'm just getting fed up with people telling other people that a rule isn't a rule as something which isn't the actual rulebook is telling them otherwise ( worse, in fact, they refer to things which are often wrong about many things) this is especially true with the greater daemons. 

This is typically only the case with forgeworld things as for some reason ( manly as people cant afford it )  there are massive amounts of negativity against it and people try their hardest to ban out ( some stores/gaming venues  outright ban it still, manly in America from what im told    )

[shadowgra]

2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

the list builder is rubbish. and its not the book or matched play profiles which are the rules. 

 

too many people use scroll builder as gospel and treat it as the word of law. 

 

as it stands, the exalted greater daemons can take items, unique or not. specifically, as there is no passage of text telling us they cannot take items, traits as they are named characters. 

 

being unique is not a limiter

being only allowed to take x number of models is not a limiter

 

the passage of text in each battletome telling us who are the named characters or actually having a name ( exalted greater daemon of * enter god name *  is not a name, more so as it is said in books that there is multiples of them, for instance, 8 exalted greater daemons of khorne, with lore accompanying it to explain who they are and what sets them apart from the normal bloodthirtster riff raff ) is a limitor. and unless we get an FAQ telling us otherwise the only limiter.

 

sorry if this comes across as aggressive 

I'm just getting fed up with people telling other people that a rule isn't a rule as something which isn't the actual rulebook is telling them otherwise ( worse, in fact, they refer to things which are often wrong about many things) this is especially true with the greater daemons. 

This is typically only the case with forgeworld things as for some reason ( manly as people cant afford it )  there are massive amounts of negativity against it and people try their hardest to ban out ( some stores/gaming venues  outright ban it still, manly in America from what im told    )

I am absolutely not against the Fw models, in my gaming club i am one of the few which very happily let people use them.

However i, as a player, do not see the "unique" and the "named" differently. Since the named hero are so unique that cannot afford traits and artefacts, why can unique (but not named) models afford them? It just makes no sense to me.

That being said i let people play it with traits and artefacts BUT I don't give it anything any time i play it.

That can just be me, i simply would say that for me is not as clear as you state.

[Arkiham]

12 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

I am absolutely not against the Fw models, in my gaming club i am one of the few which very happily let people use them.

However i, as a player, do not see the "unique" and the "named" differently. Since the named hero are so unique that cannot afford traits and artefacts, why can unique (but not named) models afford them? It just makes no sense to me.

That being said i let people play it with traits and artefacts BUT I don't give it anything any time i play it.

That can just be me, i simply would say that for me is not as clear as you state.

the greater daemons work exactly like gaunt summoners do.

 

who, by the way, are named and there can only ever be 9 at any one time. it says so in the book. they aren't random dudes, they're all named characters. you can only take 9 of these. if anything these are more named than greater daemons are.

[shadowgra]

4 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

the greater daemons work exactly like gaunt summoners do.

 

who, by the way, are named and there can only ever be 9 at any one time. it says so in the book. they aren't random dudes, they're all named characters. you can only take 9 of these. if anything these are more named than greater daemons are.

Ye but it isn't clear. Gaunt says you can have 9, these are no more than 1. So if they are 8 why you can contain only 1?

Imho is not that clear. If you think that is completely out of doubt do it

[Arkiham]

3 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

Ye but it isn't clear. Gaunt says you can have 9, these are no more than 1. So if they are 8 why you can contain only 1?

Imho is not that clear. If you think that is completely out of doubt do it

for "balance" in large games. 

 

not everything is about 2k games

[Keldaur]

@Arkiham 

Yes, it comes aggressive because I made a very simple question, and explicitly stated I could not confirm if unique = named, or unique =/= named. I wasn't making a statement. 

But you still haven't answered my question. Every unique unit I had seen is a named character thus far, and vice-versa. If you can find me another unique unit/hero/whatever that it is not in fact considered a named character. For example, i will copy paste what the tzeench book defines as named characters

"NAMED CHARACTERS KairosFateweaver, the Changeling and the BlueScribes are unique and devastatingly dangerous daemons with their own unique personalities and bespoke items of terrifying power. As such, these models cannot have a command trait or artifact of power."

The problem is that it does not include the FW models for obvious reasons  (except in the GHB ?), so we can't tell if he is a named character or not. So the question remains.

What you linked is a lore page, not a rules page which is what matters to this. I am not interested in turning the conversation on reading sections of the books which are not made for the game.

And before we jump into conclusions, I am not saying how it works, I am asking you, politely, to explicitly show why unique =/= named, and how the exalted demons can carry traits and artifacts.

[shadowgra]

3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

for "balance" in large games. 

 

not everything is about 2k games

Well also 9 gaunt could be seem unbalanced. And you cannot even play 9 since 2k is 6 heroes max

 

[Arkiham]

1 minute ago, Keldaur said:

@Arkiham 

Yes, it comes aggressive because I made a very simple question, and explicitly stated I could not confirm if unique = named, or unique =/= named. I wasn't making a statement. 

But you still haven't answered my question. Every unique unit I had seen is a named character thus far, and vice-versa. If you can find me another unique unit/hero/whatever that it is not in fact considered a named character. For example, i will copy paste what the tzeench book defines as named characters

"NAMED CHARACTERS KairosFateweaver, the Changeling and the BlueScribesare unique and devastatingly dangerous daemons with their own unique personalities and bespoke items of terrifying power. As such, these models cannot have a command trait or artifact of power."

The problem is that it does not include the FW models for obvious reasons  (except in the GHB ?), so we can't tell if he is a named character or not. So the question remains, if you can't find me another hero that is unique, but is not considered a named character (which is the primary reason why someone is unique in this game).

What you linked is a lore page, not a rules page which is what matters to this. I am not interested in turning the conversation on reading sections of the books which are not made for the game.

as I said about the gaunt summoners, there is only 9. who are all named, you are restricted to only taking 9 so, therefore, they are named. as there is limitations on how many you can take, which is what you are basing your argument on. correct?

Well, this is not the case, as in the DoT book, they are not included in the named list, even though there are limitations placed on how many you can take. 

 

which is, in its simplest form, your entire argument, it's limited, therefore its a named character.

1 minute ago, shadowgra said:

Well also 9 gaunt could be seem unbalanced. And you cannot even play 9 since 2k is 6 heroes max

 

how about in a 10k game?

 

the reason greater daemons are limited as in HUGE games, you could take multiples of these which are far stronger than the normal greater daemons. formations with bloodthirster in? ill take 8 exalted greater daemons instead, the new GUO formation? ill take 3 EGUO's instead, the formation with the LoC's in? ill take all greater ones instead. 

 

they are limited, due to the fact that only 1 would turn up to a field of battle. which is keeping within the lore. 

@Keldaur you'll find they do place quite a bit of weight on the lore if as a gamer you do not, as I successfully argued to games-workshop that Skarbrands axes wording wasn't in keeping with the lore description of it, so they changed it to always do 8 wounds. 

[shadowgra]

1 minute ago, Arkiham said:

as I said about the gaunt summoners, there is only 9. who are all named, you are restricted to only taking 9 so, therefore, they are named. as there is limitations on how many you can take, which is what you are basing your argument on. correct?

Well, this is not the case, as in the DoT book, they are not included in the named list, even though there are limitations placed on how many you can take. 

 

which is, in its simplest form, your entire argument, it's limited, therefore its a named character.

how about in a 10k game?

 

the reason greater daemons are limited as in HUGE games, you could take multiples of these which are far stronger than the normal greater daemons. formations with bloodthirster in? ill take 8 exalted greater daemons instead, the new GUO formation? ill take 3 EGUO's instead, the formation with the LoC's in? ill take all greater ones instead. 

 

they are limited, due to the fact that only 1 would turn up to a field of battle. which is keeping within the lore. 

@Keldaur you'll find they do place quite a bit of weight on the lore if as a gamer you do not, as I successfully argued to games-workshop that Skarbrands axes wording wasn't in keeping with the lore description of it, so they changed it to always do 8 wounds. 

They also cost more points and as we all know it isn't the model that cost more points that is stronger but the one that is more cost-efficient.

Why if i can field all the 9 gaunts i cannot field the 8 exalted BTs? BG wise it makes no sense at all

[Arkiham]

Just now, shadowgra said:

They also cost more points and as we all know it isn't the model that cost more points that is stronger but the one that is more cost-efficient.

Why if i can field all the 9 gaunts i cannot field the 8 exalted BTs? BG wise it makes no sense at all

 

3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

they are limited, due to the fact that only 1 would turn up to a field of battle. which is keeping within the lore. 

 

 

 

[shadowgra]

But if i can field only one then i see them as more than unique daemons even more! (I missed that part in the post before MB)

Anyway i think that both of us will remain of the same idea so let's end it there

We'll wait for the FAQ and see

[Arkiham]

2 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

But if i can field only one then i see them as more than unique daemons even more! (I missed that part in the post before MB)

Anyway i think that both of us will remain of the same idea so let's end it there

We'll wait for the FAQ and see

just as you can only field one, doesn't make that dude who turns up, one of a kind unique, whereas the celestant prime clearly is unique.

 

but yeah sure faq. 

[Keldaur]

@Arikham Yes, there are limitations, but not the wording named characters or the label Unique for Gaunt Summoners. I am trying to find something that has the label unique and is not named. Anyways I will delay my participation in the discussion until I can take and read my books. Cheers.

And I hope we are clear that Gaunt summoners are NOT Named characters. Because then you would be grasping at straws since it is clearly defined in the Tzeench's book who is or is not a named character. And to be more clear, what is stated rules-wise as a named character.

[Arkiham]

31 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

And I hope we are clear that Gaunt summoners are NOT Named characters. Because then you would be grasping at straws since it is clearly defined in the Tzeench's book who is or is not a named character. And to be more clear, what is stated rules-wise as a named character.

 

that is literally my point im making.

just as they are limited, does not make them named. 

 

but if you could tell me their names, and show me the bit where it does while your looking, ill gladly concede.

 

ill further point out, in the profile on the greater daemons it starts with " an " so, again. they cant possibly be named. as all named characters start by the name

[NurglesFirstChosen]

I’m not sure I see where this debate is going. 

Limiting the number of a unit in an army doesn’t make it a named character. To me that seems pretty clear. A named character has a specific name and identity - not a species description. 

[Keldaur]

27 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

that is literally my point im making.

just as they are limited, does not make them named. 

I get you, but they are not unique neither named characters. I understand your point, that unique is only a list building limitation and therefore 9 limit is the same as unique (i don't share it, I think unique is a listed building limitation that only exists for named characters).  The reason you can't take more than 9 gaunt summoners is that there are not more than 9 Gaunt summoners. The reason you can't take more than 1 Kairos is that there are not more than 1 Kairos. The reason you can't take more than 1 Exalted Daemon, is not because there are not more than 1 Exalted daemon, so why is it?

So since I don't know why he is unique. Either because he is considered a named character (with their own personality, and artifacts), or not, I will try to look somewhere that clarifies it. And this is where the list builder comes in. If I have to trust you, or the person who added the unique behemoth label not allowing to take general traits or artifacts, well, I will choose the person who did that part since its the most official. You can look for them to either FAQ or change it. 

11 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

I’m not sure I see where this debate is going. 

Limiting the number of a unit in an army doesn’t make it a named character. To me that seems pretty clear. A named character has a specific name and identity - not a species description. 

1

The debate isn't if it or isn't a named character. But if a unique hero is not considered a named character for the purposes of the rules (the distinction matters). I also thought that was self-evident.

Just to portrait how it sounds: "An exalted greater daemon obviously is not a named character. But it comes with the unique limitation that comes with every single named character and is not found anywhere else."

To be honest, Games workshop is the one at fault here, since they haven't described named characters in a clear way on their books until very recently, and then FW stuff does not help.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

The difference between a named character and a exalted greater daemon is that in the fluff, there is one of said named character and multiple of a exalted daemon.

A ‘unique character’ as you refer to them (ie named Character) have their own identity and equipment. There are multiple characters who are exalted daemons such as Ku’Gath, Septicus and Rotigus - each are different to each other. Some such as rotigus and kairos have individual abilities defined by gw as they are named - some do not. These unnamed exalted greater daemons are made in a way that allows the player to create a character and individualism. 

[Keldaur]

Unique Character does not exist in rules terms. Named character or Unique are the labels. I am not using deliberately them, I am using the rule terms for them.

Yes, and I can make a case that the war scroll profile already includes the stats, artifacts, and traits that set them apart from Greater Daemons to allow you to use that Kugath, etc. So I come back to the same spot.

Both are Unique. Why is the Exalted Greater Unique ? Why doesn't the list builder allow me to juggle around the artifact/traits for any of them? If the difference is that it is because Rotigus is a named character and the Exalted Greater Daemon is not (rules wise), why use the unique Behemoth for both? Shouldn't I be able to field 8 of them if i wanted to like with the Gaunt Summoners?

[Tasman]

Wow..... that's a lot of back and forth over a seemingly innocuous question. I personally am just going to wait for a FAQ.... He, ( the EGDoN) is not listed in the book as a character who cannot be given traits and artifacts. This is not surprising as it Forgeworld. This we all seem to agree on. If a player wants to assign them in a game v me, no problem. I just won't do it myself until there's been some clarification. Thanks to all who responded, though. A very lively discussion.

[Arkiham]

22 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Unique Character does not exist in rules terms. Named character or Unique are the labels. I am not using deliberately them, I am using the rule terms for them.

Yes, and I can make a case that the war scroll profile already includes the stats, artifacts, and traits that set them apart from Greater Daemons to allow you to use that Kugath, etc. So I come back to the same spot.

Both are Unique. Why is the Exalted Greater Unique ? Why doesn't the list builder allow me to juggle around the artifact/traits for any of them? If the difference is that it is because Rotigus is a named character and the Exalted Greater Daemon is not (rules wise), why use the unique Behemoth for both? Shouldn't I be able to field 8 of them if i wanted to like with the Gaunt Summoners?

So, when the scroll builder messes up (As it has done in the past) and puts say blightkings back up to 180 rather than 160. Will you refer to it as the standard as you do now? or will you simply say "Oh that's gotta be wrong as the book says this so ill ignore that for the time being " 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

@Tasman I agree, polite discussion is very healthy  

@Arkiham @Keldaur I’d love to go explicitly off the warscroll builder as that’d mean I would only be paying 320 for 12 toads and not 400  

[Injuryprone]

27 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

@Tasman I agree, polite discussion is very healthy  

@Arkiham @Keldaur I’d love to go explicitly off the warscroll builder as that’d mean I would only be paying 320 for 12 toads and not 400  

The toad increase hurts me so hard.

[Yeled]

[Killax]

Wow, long discussion too.

We don't know if Exalted Greater Daemons can have Command Traits or Artefacts and all those choices. Because neither Games Workshop or Forgeworld have ever adressed that point in their FAQ/Errata. 

Feel free to forward it on their AoS Facebook page. I don't know why characters with Fleshhounds or Juggernauts in Khorne don't have the Daemon Keyword. Sence isn't something I look for in AoS.