bloodsecrator Does Rage of Khorne Stack?

[Beltrajor]

Wrathmonger's ability clearly states it doesn't stack .

Secrator's wording doesn't show lead to the same interpretation even  if it's been changed.

If it doesn't stack ,then aspiring deathbringer with MOTD spam  it will be!;)

[Killax]

8 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

we are, just because it doesnt say "does not stack" in bold flashing itallics, doesn't mean it stacks.

Thats exactly how it does work. As per GW FAQ.

[KnightFire]

15 minutes ago, Killax said:

Thats exactly how it does work. As per GW FAQ.

But the wording for the banner clearly says units nearby get X, and units that have X have Y, that clearly doesnt stack, through simple use of the English language and formal logic.

 

See my example above about paint or the flu.

[Wotyn]

25 minutes ago, Killax said:

Wording on Rage of Khorne does not state it wouldnt stack.

RAW do not ever suggest the Bok refers to a sigular effect.

Limiting effects such as use of Blood Tithe points or Collar of Khorne define the limit. Rage of Khorne does not. 

Read as is written.

It uses THE which is a singular effect, and not a multiple instance effect. For something to stack it has to be a multiple instance. Most effects in the game are stackable, but that does not mean that they have to put a side note up when something doesn't stack. Claiming that something does something just because it doesn't state otherwise is a standard Burden of Proof argument that has no merit. For your edification: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

And I completely agree that batallion effects stack, it has no bearing whatsoever on the wording of Rage of Khorne. It is THE Rage, it is one thing, and it does one thing which is +1A for any Khorne unit nearby. 3 Bloodsecrators just means that THE one thing now has a larger area of effect in overlapping bubbles, but it does not multiple THE single Rage of Khorne to be multiple Rages of Khorne. In your own argument earlier you misquoted it as stating A Rage of Khorne, which if it were the wording then sure it would mean it stacked. We don't need to look for extra instruction here because the wording when examined closely is specific. 

I once spent a whole 2 hour meeting explaining and arguing the meaning of the words Delegate, Delegatee and Delegator to a steering committee made up of people who largely made more money in a week than I made in a year back then. I know what I'm talking about with language, and my proof was already completely sufficient if you have enough understanding of the english language to understand the nuance. I'm not going to sit here giving any proofs as to why my interpretation is correct, you either can see that it is or you cannot. I don't see the point labouring on in this discussion, there is no more or better proof or logic available than what the words already say, and it isn't going to be changed.

[Thomas Lyons]

2 hours ago, Killax said:

Read as is written.

We are but some of us have better reading comprehension than others.  

For what its worth:

 

I suspect we'll get clarity on this in the next FAQ.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

Going back to the fluff of the rule that I had *hoped* would clarify it. 

The Portal of Skulls opens into the realm of Khorne and allows his rage to spill out into that realm. This in turn empowers the followers of Khorne who are infected by that Rage.

There is only one God of War named Khorne. 

He has only one realm.

Opening more portals increases the area of which his Rage can spread, but does not some how magically double the amount of his Rage. The Portal is not a device which broadcasts an energy similar to his Rage. It is a key that opens a door that allows it to spill out. Having two keys opens two doors and allows more of it onto the battlefield, but does not somehow make it more powerful. 

When you take the fluff of the rule into account, the nature described of the Portal of Skulls and the wording of the rule in general. Adding onto the fact that they bothered to change it, suggests to me that it doesn't stack. 

As others have pointed, it is "The" Rage of Khorne. Singular. 

[mmimzie]

I definitely doesn't stack You get +1 for having "the Rage of Khorne"

As has been pointed out The makes it singular, but it more than that. It makes it a whole. For a comparison for those who have ever been in church (i'm not particularly religious, but i explore). Any way when they give you the cookies, crackers, or bread in church this is to symbolize "the body of christ." This is because it is to represent christ body.

Now if i said hey you get a prize for having the body of christ, and you came up to be and said "i have 2 the body of christ" I'd only give you one prize. This is because in the religion christ is infinite and indivisible.  It is something that is infinite and beyond comprehension etc.  Again i'm not an active subscriber if you are i am sure I am in some way wrong, but i'm definitely in the ball park.

As such "the Rage of Khorne" is in the same vein of a religious thing.  It's not something that can be parsed or separated from the whole.  It is one thing and can not be broken or parsed. It is a real world exam of the usages of the words here.

Next onto the people saying it is a process of some sort which is super weird. First there is no logic in the game that applies this. There is order of stacking things that is not in this game. 

In the cases of it being a process. It doesn't work because i could just have 1 RoK buff and keep doing your process there is no exit from this loop of gaining an attack. As i look at X unit and say " Does it have Rage of khorne??"  yes?? " I get +1 attack," then repeat that look infinite times forever. 

 

 

 

I will agree the previous wording while ambiguous lent itself to stack, this wording is very clear in the singular ness of the rage of khorne. Most here seem to agree that it doesn't stack any way, and i guess it's just mainly @Killax who has entrenched himself on this topic, but kinda doesn't bring anything new to the argument or really refute people's takes on the idea?? He just says something he's already said before like "RAW" or "FAQ"  As if everyone else's logic is irrelevant,

As such i've said my piece on a very interesting topic, and will avoid this forum. If any one care for my vote. It doesn't stack.

[Killax]

No worries about me @mmimzie, I'm writing up a list for all to read and judge. We have over a dozen 'add 1' abilities and roughly a dozen who are 'limited within their design and wording'. 

Anyone is free to assume whatever they want about Rage of Khorne. The fact of the matter, the rules as written and the overall design of Blades of Khorne does not suggest that you cannot add 1 on top of itself. In fact BoK dictates you can under the Abilities section.

Those that are looking for 'logical competative balance' shouldnt look to deep into AoS anyway, because the whole game isn't designed with a competative mindset to begin with. 

Post will be up later today. Judgement is for yourself. More importantly though, GW does add text for the ****** and giggles and if it says you can only have a certain ability once it clearly states so  Narrative is the '****** and giggles', RAW is not saying you cannot add beyond 1 if you add. 

Anyone is free to use the SCGT 'same named abilities dont stack' house-rule, anyone is free to treat Prayers as Spells house-rule and most certainly anyone is free is to meassure from base to base. All these are not included in the RAW.

Cheers,

[Killax]

As per the written rules of Games Workshop this post will go into why Rage of Khorne (for example) does stack and why we have several examples of abilities who don't. First things first is the Hints and Tips that Blades of Khorne has also included into it's Battletome. These Hints and Tips go into the the adding and substracting of characteristics and how they are most certainly cumulative.

 
Source: page 125 Blades of Khorne

Because the wording apparently was unclear to some it was also repeated as the awnser to the question if certain abilities are cumulative. The awnser from Games Workshop can be clearly found again in their FAQ.

 
Source: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf

Blades of Khorne has a massive ammount of synergistic options and a lot of cumulative abilities. What we see is that the wording on these abilities is extremely clear.

Here is the list of clear culumative abilities found in Blades of Khorne:
- Desciple of Khorne (add 1)
- Immense Power (add 1)
- The Gorecleaver (add -1 Rend)
- The Skull-helm of Khorne (add 1)
- The Blade of Endless Bloodshed (additional one to any others generated)
- Talisman of Burning Blood (add 1)
- Mark of the Destroyer (double)
- Deathdealer (add 1 to melee weapons, not becomes 'new melee weapon') 
- Harvester of Skulls (add 1 to melee weapons, not becomes 'new melee weapon') 
- Armour of Scorn (add 1, the wound can be D3, 3, 6 or whatever non-singular number)
- Bronzed Flesh (add 1)
- Killing Frenzy (add 1)
- Khorne Cares Not Whence The Blood Flows (add 1)
- Blood-scent (add 3)
- Khorne's Hunters (add 1)
- Eternal Contest (add 1)
- Mightiest of Champions (add 1)
- Feeding Frenzy (add 1)
- Reaping Strikes (add 1)
- Slay the Worthy (add 1)
- Frenzied Charge (add 1)
- Lord of the Blood Hunt (add 1)
- Bloodsoacked Banner (add 1, example of both)
- Rage of Khorne (add 1)
- Blood Stampede (add 1)
- Slaughter Incarnate (add 1) 
- Favoured by Khorne (add 1)
- Whipped to Fury (add 3)
- Raging Fury (add 1)

Here is the list of clear restricted abilities found in Blades of Khorne:
- Ammount of Artefacts on one Hero (one)
- Ammount of Command Traits on General (one)
- Blood Tithe points (up to 8)
- Spending Blood Tithe points (once per Hero phase)
- Arch-Slaughter (one additional)
- Aspect of Death (one additional)
- Collar of Khorne (unbined one)
- Fierce Rivals (once)
- Giant Killers (single attack with one)
- The Blood God's Scorn (one or one additional)
- Brass Collar of Bloody Vengeance (one)
- Bloodsoacked Banner (any Banners, example of both)
- Scorn of Sorcery (one)
- Icorn Bearer (any Icons)
- Horn Blower (any Horn Blowers)
- Frenzied Devotion (rather)
- Crimson Haze (1 more, not 2 more, 3 more etc.)
- Brass Collar of Khorne (one)
- Horrific Predator (one or more)

What we see here under the rules as written is that in no way, shape or written form the suggestion is left that a 'named abilities and effects' can only be applied once.
What we do see is that there are several House-rules available who do state that 'named abilities and effects' can only be applied once. Heleenhammer Podcast for example uses the SCGT House-rules, the link to this is found on their page: http://heelanhammer.com/SCGTdownloads/SCGT17TPv1.2.pdf 

If Games Workshop wanted to have reworded Rage of Khorne in such a manner that it would stop being a culumative ability they could gone for the following examples:

Quote

Rage of Khorne: This ability affects all KHORNE
units in your army within 18" of this model at
the start of the combat phase. When they attack,
add one more to the Attacks characteristic of all melee
weapons used by units affected by the Rage of
Khorne. In addition, players do not have to take
battleshock tests for any KHORNE units within
18" of this model.

Quote

Rage of Khorne: This ability affects all KHORNE
units in your army within 18" of this model at
the start of the combat phase. When they attack,
add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee
weapons used by units affected by the Rage of
Khorne once. In addition, players do not have to take
battleshock tests for any KHORNE units within
18" of this model.

Quote

Rage of Khorne: This ability affects all KHORNE
units in your army within 18" of this model once at
the start of the combat phase. When they attack,
add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all melee
weapons used by units affected by the Rage of
Khorne. In addition, players do not have to take
battleshock tests for any KHORNE units within
18" of this model.

What we clearly see is that Games Workshop did not change Rage of Khorne, Brazen Skin, Slaughter Incarnate or many of the other culumative abilities in a manner that would restrict them from acumulating. The wording on this is clear, the wording on these abilities does not prefent any acumulation or in other words prefents 'stacking'. 

The moment a rule is restricitve it expressively will say that this is the case, either by applying an effect or ability once, casting a prayer once, changing the characteristic to another set number, having one Command Trait or one Artefact of Power.
As can be seen above there are MANY examples who are worded in a restrictive manner. Rage of Khorne is not one of them.

What many seem to assume is that Games Workshop creates Battletomes for Competative or Matched purposes. The mere suggestion of this is false, the whole idea that Age of Sigmar Battletomes are booklets that contain a lot of competative and matched play restrictive rules is false. If you want to further improve the competative and matched play restrictions you can do so by applying House-rules.

If you follow the rules as written for Rage of Khorne you can add 1 as many times as you can generate the Rage of Khorne effect. 

Cheers,
Killax

[Killax]

13 minutes ago, Auticus said:

From my perception, based on fb polls and other forum polls, the "it does not stack" is far and away the most common answer and our tournaments in the region are also going with "it does not stack" until an FAQ says it does.

Several tournaments use House-rules. The moment you use them such as they are used on the SCGT you can see that the rules clearly state that within these house-rules for that tournament same name abilities do not stack.

I've seen people referencing to Facebook, Forums, Twitter and even Podcasts as claim for their sources. Use the Blades of Khorne book as the source for your rules. The current wording of Rage of Khorne simply said does not have any indication that it would prefent itself from accumulating several 'add 1 effects'. 

The vast mayority of abilities written by Games Workshop that do not fall under 'Cumulative Ability Effects' are those who do not contain add 1 or substract 1 and reference to once, one, one more or one less.

If posters by this point do not state and link their sources I can only see that this is an opinion based on assumptions, not an opinion based on rules as written. 
- You can add several Bronzed Flesh effects unless otherwise noted
- You can add several Whipped to Fury effects unless otherwise noted
- You can add several Rage of Khorne effects unless otherwise noted

[Aspirant Snaeper]

Quite frankly, I've read enough.

The biggest disservice to your argument is the fact that "You're right and we're wrong." You're not here to debate us, you're not here to consider our point, you're here to tell us we're wrong. 

As that is not a constructive discussion I wish to be a part of, I'm going to assume that there's no further point in continuing reading or "debating" any of this with you. 

[Killax]

13 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Quite frankly, I've read enough.

The biggest disservice to your argument is the fact that "You're right and we're wrong." You're not here to debate us, you're not here to consider our point, you're here to tell us we're wrong. 

As that is not a constructive discussion I wish to be a part of, I'm going to assume that there's no further point in continuing reading or "debating" any of this with you. 

What has made this discussion non-construtive is using Twitter, Facebook, Podcasts, Forums and other heresay as sources. There is no reason to do that.

As can be seen above, there are 29 culumative abilities in the Blades of Khorne book that simply add 1 or 3 to characterstics or rolls. It's up to anyone to House-rule 1 of those 29 as non-culumative. Or all of them as per SCGT House-rules.

Rules as written do not contain the same wording on Rage of Khorne as they do for example on Crimzon Haze, Icon Bearers or the several Collars of Khorne. 

[Gaz Taylor]

++ Mod Mode ++

Right, I've had enough of this debate as basically we are just seeing the same people butting heads. I think this has been discussed enough and is worthy of an FAQ from GW. Until then - No more questions about Rage of Khorne. If I see any, you will see Rage of Moderator.

This topic is done - LOCKED