Key word issues

[L.Bromley]

Hey guys I just posted this in the rules section but as it's death specific maybe you guys are the best ones to ask.

 

 

Hey guys, I'm wondering how flexible people are when it comes to keys words?

Im wanting to use the charnel pit formation for the death alliance but the key words say that you require a strigoi ghoul king either on foot or on terrorghiest, do they mean the abhorrent ghoul king as I can't find this Strigoi model on warscroll builder or in the flesh eaters battletome, it's pointed in the generals handbook so it must exist, am I missing something? Please help

[deynon]

There are FAQs about it. 

The name of the units are not Keyword cause not Bold Written on the warscroll battalions. So If they don't match the name the warscroll battalion is not usable. Even the "Legion of Death" on the GA:D is not anymore usable cause doesn't exist units called simply "Wight King".

[Uveron]

That would have made the leagion of death not usable at time of publication .. which makes no sense. 

[deynon]

On 26/2/2017 at 6:46 PM, Uveron said:

That would have made the leagion of death not usable at time of publication .. which makes no sense. 

nope, it's become useless cause that FAQ and so a lot more warscoll battalions. They are not anymore keywords the list of units, but the names. If the name doesn't match...you can't use it (and there is another FAQ related to it)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Except an FAQ is a clarification of existing rules, whereas actually changing them is an errata.

It's worth noting that if you actually read the GA:Death book, Wight King is presented as a title, with the weapon as a subtitle, similar to the Plague Priest for Pestilens. It's formatted differently to, say, the VLoZD, and thus is a bit ambiguous.

[Uveron]

2 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Except an FAQ is a clarification of existing rules, whereas actually changing them is an errata.

It's worth noting that if you actually read the GA:Death book, Wight King is presented as a title, with the weapon as a subtitle, similar to the Plague Priest for Pestilens. It's formatted differently to, say, the VLoZD, and thus is a bit ambiguous.

This exactly. 

FAQ's are to clear up misconceptions with the rules. To make sure we use them as intended.

I do need to check the 'How Warscrolls Work' Page on my copy of CA:Death. to see how it talks about units names. 

[wayniac]

This is one of those things where tournament players will probably be more strict than people at a casual game night.  I'd check with your group or the TO/EO if you're going to a tournament or event respectively, because they will tell you how they want it done.  We can argue until the next End Times about what the FAQ says or what is correct, but ultimately your group or event will determine the "truth" for your situation.

[Andreas]

16 hours ago, deynon said:

nope, it's become useless cause that FAQ and so a lot more warscoll battalions. They are not anymore keywords the list of units, but the names. If the name doesn't match...you can't use it (and there is another FAQ related to it)

Well the Legion of Death battalion worked fine at GW's Grand Tournament Heat One (and actually made it into top five I think). 

I sometimes get the feeling that some gaming groups are mush more strict than bigger tournaments. If you go to any of the bigger tournament I am sure you can run it even without consulting the TO and it is definitely fine if the TO is GW.

Edit: As for compendium stuff like the charnel pit formation i am not so sure. Especially if it has been replaced by a new book. For me with or without the right key words throw the warrior brotherhood in the bin (and the charnel pit also as a collateral).

[wayniac]

I think it's generally a lot of people expect the rules to function as written without having to interpret them (although that's always been the case with GW), so when GW's FAQs tend to directly contradict the rules or change things around completely, people get confused.

[Andreas]

19 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I think it's generally a lot of people expect the rules to function as written without having to interpret them (although that's always been the case with GW), so when GW's FAQs tend to directly contradict the rules or change things around completely, people get confused.

I completely agree with this. You can't read rules for a table top game as you read contract law. Does it makes sense that you should be able to run the Legion of Death from the lates published mixed Death book that also have matched play points or not? Some gaming groups might say no and that's fine but in general and in big tournaments that is currently not an issue.

[deynon]

3 hours ago, Andreas said:

Well the Legion of Death battalion worked fine at GW's Grand Tournament Heat One (and actually made it into top five I think). 

I sometimes get the feeling that some gaming groups are mush more strict than bigger tournaments. If you go to any of the bigger tournament I am sure you can run it even without consulting the TO and it is definitely fine if the TO is GW.

Edit: As for compendium stuff like the charnel pit formation i am not so sure. Especially if it has been replaced by a new book. For me with or without the right key words throw the warrior brotherhood in the bin (and the charnel pit also as a collateral).

A GT has been won by a beastman army with more points than those requested. And during events it's not the first time GW change rules itself made .

It's not something that justify. 

Before the FAQ if someone wanted to pòay it, I would have made it avalaible. The FAQ declare a thing, so for everyone is so, not only you yes the other one not.

So they are not keywords, ok, so only units with that specific name can, others not.

[deynon]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

I completely agree with this. You can't read rules for a table top game as you read contract law. Does it makes sense that you should be able to run the Legion of Death from the lates published mixed Death book that also have matched play points or not? Some gaming groups might say no and that's fine but in general and in big tournaments that is currently not an issue.

if you interprete...everythin can be done so... It's not a justification.  Why should your vision be the valid one? Where and when is the border?

[wayniac]

1 hour ago, deynon said:

if you interprete...everythin can be done so... It's not a justification.  Why should your vision be the valid one? Where and when is the border?

When it's not a silly half-assed rule that has no reason for existing other than the designers seem to never actually remember the rules they wrote in the first place.

[Uveron]

And when its quite clear that the units name is the part in the lager text and not in the bold, and the other part that is smaller and italicized is more of a comment.   

[deynon]

8 minutes ago, wayniac said:

When it's not a silly half-assed rule that has no reason for existing other than the designers seem to never actually remember the rules they wrote in the first place.

it is cause you determine arbitrarily .

The naùes in the warscoll battalion lists are not keywords, are names. If you have to use by FAQ those names they have to be those names.

Before the FAQ they were considered Keywords so no problem at all. Not it's different.

Where is writen os a comment? It's wrotten that in that posution is the name of the unit and such it is. And so even on the GH there are the name of the units and suche there are. Those are the referring.

What you say is simply an yourseòf invention based on the rules.

[Andreas]

2 hours ago, deynon said:

if you interprete...everythin can be done so... It's not a justification.  Why should your vision be the valid one? Where and when is the border?

You can play it that way. I have no problem with it. If it's fun for you it's fine.

I am just saying that if someone wants to play the legion of death outside your group. For example at GH heat 2 it's fine.

[deynon]

4 minutes ago, Andreas said:

You can play it that way. I have no problem with it. If it's fun for you it's fine.

I am just saying that if someone wants to play the legion of death outside your group. For example at GH heat 2 it's fine.

It's not fine.  There has to be a rule that specify what can be used and what not. You can't present yourself at the tournament and know the other can play what you can't. 

It has to be crystal clear.

Or is it valid for everyone or not. Not on spots decided arbitrarly. 
The list on the warscroll battalions are the names and not keywords? So they have to be exactly rhose words. Otherways you have to classify those names as keywords as where considered before.

I can accept the Legion of Death and similar on private battles, not on a tournament.

[Andreas]

1 hour ago, deynon said:

I can accept the Legion of Death and similar on private battles, not on a tournament.

Ok, to be honest I just think you have to live with it acually and don't know what more to say.

Edit: And it's not because I say that it is so it's just the fact that tournament are being played and Legion of Death sometimes are played regardless who thinks he has the best argument in this thread. I have played tournament games against both the legion of death and the faulrain congregation. ?

[deynon]

1 minute ago, Andreas said:

Ok, to be honest I just think you have to live with acually and don't know what more to say.

I can say the same about you...

In the tournaments GW made a lot of misunderinterpretation. It's like saying the rules on WD are like they should be... or you want to me to recall you how much errorrs there always been there? 

Those are the rules. Change them is never a problem, but they have to be the same for everyone, not only to someone decided by who knows for who knows what reason.

[wayniac]

2 hours ago, deynon said:

I can say the same about you...

In the tournaments GW made a lot of misunderinterpretation. It's like saying the rules on WD are like they should be... or you want to me to recall you how much errorrs there always been there? 

Those are the rules. Change them is never a problem, but they have to be the same for everyone, not only to someone decided by who knows for who knows what reason.

But they aren't the same.  GW gets rules wrong all the time.  They allow these things in their "sponsored" tournaments, so are they not valid for those?  Whether or not you think it "should" be one way or another, the fact remains the actual answer seems to be "it depends".  In some cases, you are right.  In others, you aren't.  There isn't any one answer, because GW themselves don't follow any one way.

[Andreas]

2 hours ago, deynon said:

Those are the rules. Change them is never a problem, but they have to be the same for everyone, not only to someone decided by who knows for who knows what reason.

Ok, I will take a look at this a little more seriously and not just go for the fact that the formation is played at tournaments without insidents. Could you explain what is exactly the problem?

The legion of death requires a wight king. We have two warscrolls with that keyword to choose from.

In the new Stormcast book we have for example the vanguard wing, it requires 3 units of prosecutors. We have two warscrolls with that keyword to choose from.

Is there actualy some FAQ "preventing" people from using formations in the new Stormcast Book and the Death alliance book without we knowing about it?

[deynon]

2 minutes ago, wayniac said:

But they aren't the same.  GW gets rules wrong all the time.  They allow these things in their "sponsored" tournaments, so are they not valid for those?  Whether or not you think it "should" be one way or another, the fact remains the actual answer seems to be "it depends".  In some cases, you are right.  In others, you aren't.  There isn't any one answer, because GW themselves don't follow any one way.

it can't be "it depends" based on what? It has to be, npt shuld.

Thry change or remove that FAQ. Otherway they don.t respect their own rules. If they want to do such they have to say when it is ok and when not case by case. 

It's not a roll a dice when something is doubt during the game, it's the preparation of the game itself. It's not dofferent then saying that you can mix different grand alliance abiluties cause you're using rules you shluldn't have cause the rules they themselves put.

Simply you apply the rules and signal them the problem cause it's a mess they created modifying. Befire such problem there wasn't.

As I accept the ring and I apply the losing of the general also if it involves the unique charzcters.

 

@Andreas: the list on the warscroll battlaion ar enot keywords, but are the nams of the units. They are not keywords cause they are not bold written as the FAQ say. So, they have to be perfectly matched by the names of the units if something differs thant those units can't be used for the warscroll battalion and by another FAQ released: if a warscroll battalion doesn't have the units playable that warscroll battalion is not usable.

It exists whte keyword "Wight King" but doesn't exists a unit called simply "Wight king" .

The names listed in the warscroll battlaion are not keywords. Such say the FAQ. They are not wirtten in bold. So. Every argumentation about it falls.

It's not something new. We yet discussed about this when the FAQs where released. 

 

 

 AoS_FAQ_The_Rules_v1.1   pag. 6, second colomn, Warscroll and warscroll battalions, 3° question (1° magenta one)

Q: How do you determine what models and units make up a
warscroll battalion? When is it based on a keyword and when is
it a unit name?
A: When a warscroll battalion is referring to a keyword,
it appears in Keyword Bold. Otherwise, it is referring to
the name of a unit.

 

The names in the lists of the warscroll battlaions are not bold characters ones so are the names of the units, if not perfect suitable they are not usable for such warscroll battlaion.

 

[Andreas]

You should break it to the stormcast players. A lot of them are planing to use the hammerstrike force in the new book with prosecutors (not bold) as a requirement. There are no such warscroll. ? I am not sure they are going to listen to you but it could be quite funny.

[Vaeron]

13 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

It's worth noting that if you actually read the GA:Death book, Wight King is presented as a title, with the weapon as a subtitle, similar to the Plague Priest for Pestilens. It's formatted differently to, say, the VLoZD, and thus is a bit ambiguous.

It is ambiguous for sure. Plague Priest isn't bolded and there's no unit that satisfies the name requirement for at least 2 Skaven Pestilens battalions which actually have points values: foulrain Congregation and Pestilent Claw pack. Plague priest is a keyword belonging to unit names Plague Priest with Censor, Plague Priest with Staff, and Lord Skrolk. A strict reading of Unit Name means these battalions, one of which is from the battletome, are unfieldable.

[deynon]

9 hours ago, Andreas said:

You should break it to the stormcast players. A lot of them are planing to use the hammerstrike force in the new book with prosecutors (not bold) as a requirement. There are no such warscroll. ? I am not sure they are going to listen to you but it could be quite funny.

 

9 hours ago, Vaeron said:

It is ambiguous for sure. Plague Priest isn't bolded and there's no unit that satisfies the name requirement for at least 2 Skaven Pestilens battalions which actually have points values: foulrain Congregation and Pestilent Claw pack. Plague priest is a keyword belonging to unit names Plague Priest with Censor, Plague Priest with Staff, and Lord Skrolk. A strict reading of Unit Name means these battalions, one of which is from the battletome, are unfieldable.

it's not my fault,suche are the rules.

The list of the units in the warscroll battalion are not bold written so they are no keyword. It's useless to continue to refer them as keywords, they are not such.

There's the FAQ that says what are FAQ and what not and those are not.

The can be deaf and blond but such are the rules.

 

And the problem is to apply to every other warscroll, quite a lot have the same problem.

 

It's not ambiguos, it's crystal clear and it deny such use.

Considering those as keywords legion of death and other units are avalaible. And also the ROyal managerie can be playerd with ridden monsters and so on.

But the name are the names. If the name doesn't match perfectly., beh... no use. And there's also the FAQ that say that if the warscroll battlaion has units those not corrisponds that warscroll battlaions are not usable.

 

They have to change their way to use. It's not something new. The FAQ are out since December 2016, they should read them.