USA vs European Game Clubs & Game Stores

[AkumaKaze]

Hey all,

 

This is not a 'Who is Better" post but more of a discussion of the differences of where and when USA normally plays games and where and when Europe plays games.  

Since I am USA-based, I will provide input on our styles and I would like to hear about the rest of the world (and other parts of the USA as well).  

Here in the USA, we have far less game clubs and it is almost encouraged that all miniatures and card games are played in the stores where people purchase their products.  However, with online sales now becoming more common (and stores not having enough stock of items) that shift is going more the way of starting game clubs similar to what you all have in Europe.  So this poses a question:  do you find game clubs to be in your opinion the better way to go and why?  Also, how would you go about getting one started?  

I would like to hear your take on this.

[Xerox]

Hi Akuma,

i'm from Germany. We really prefer gaming clubs, but I for my self have no issues about going into a store. Clubs are in my opinion the way to go, you'll have a fix room where you can leave the tables like they are. At home i have to getting the Table out of his corner, onto the table, scenery out of the corner, onto the Table and all backwards when the game is over. Kinda annoying. ?

You also can store all your Terrain, scenery, army's at your clubhouse if it is a room or hut you can savely lock. Also you'll don't have to carry anything over there because you can store every single piece for your games there. Getting a Fridge inside your clubhouse, you also have cold drinks in there. ? The thing is you can design it how ever you want. 

 

Buuuuuut, it'll cost some money to rent a room. If you have enough guy's coming and are willingly to split the rent it's just a small amount everyone have to pay. Or getting your hand @ a free place where you can go to. It worked awesome in my last gaming club. The only problem was nobody wanted to play WHFB or rarely. Not to speak of AoS. So i had to leave cause I didn't wanted to pay for a club in wich I rarely had some games. 

[BaldoBeardo]

UK here - Clubs, definitely.
Our local scene had to relocate after our GW relocated from somewhere with a 'battle bunker' (7-8 permanent 6x4's plus 'store tables') to a 1-man store. Was a panic but we found a local venue that allowed us some storage space to keep stuff on site.
A club allows you to deem what is acceptable - we have a set of club rules on conduct.
The severe cheating neckbeards eventually gave up - stores kinda have to have an all-inclusive policy (donkeycave money the same as paragon money), whereas clubs don't.
It also doesn't restrict you to only stuff the store owner sells, for example.
It's extra work, certainly - there's normally a rush to avoid being the 'packing up guy' - but it's a much better environment.

That said, you need to promote. A web presence is almost essential, and work with local stores so they can ensure new members are aware of you.

Especially if there's a bar at the venue.


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[AkumaKaze]

I have noticed that a lot of players here in my area have kicked around the idea of starting a gaming club but rent on an area can be quite costly.  The idea of a "house circuit" has also been kicked around.  That way we can always grill and drink.

[Ratatatata]

I'm from Sweden and here it is all about clubs. The few (3?) GW shops are way to small to have any kind of organized play. The few tables there are would normally be reserved for the young 'uns, kids in their pre-teens. And while I do like kids, I prefer playing with people that are a little more of age. 

As I've understood a big difference between here and over on your side of the pond, is the cost for renting an area. We're renting a place that allocates 9 tables, plus a kitchen, wc, plenty of storage room for ~400 USD a month. That's nothing with 50+ members. 

On the flip side there´s no-one doing the work for you. So there's cleaning, paying rent, collecting membership fees, more cleaning, catering for terrain, cleaning... 

[RossMHoward]

Clubs here in the UK. 

My order of preference is:

1. Clubs
2. Home
3. Independent Games Stores
4. Games Workshop

The only downside with Clubs, in London especially is the difficulty finding a location that's cheap enough and allows for storage. We're lucky in that we have that + a cheap bar. As @BaldoBeardo said, the club can set their own rules and practices and over time, you tend to attract and retrain the "right" kind of players. 

Our's stipulates two things:

1. Don't be a ******
2. Put your terrain, board and mat back after your game. 

My low score for playing in GW stores is also a factor of the cost of location in London, as most of the stores here, including my local on Tottenham Court Road are tiny and only have room for a couple of 4x4 tables which is not indicative of the game in my opinion. That and the fact that a few that I have played at I've had negative experiences with the management. Lovely people, but pushy on the sales. 

Personally I prefer the atmosphere at a club, where people are playing whichever game suits them and you don't feel like a ****** for screaming and shouting when you're having a close game

 

[TerrorPenguin]

UK here - we are lucky in having an independent store which is great, can fit about 20 6x4 tables in and have a great attitude to people playing - basically "bring your stuff and play and I hope you keep coming back and become a customer". Sigmar has also meant a wipe of any of the ultra competitive players and everyone seems to get on pretty well so far.

No bar though, although this hobby is expensive enough, don't need booze in there as well.

Never played in a GW - the one in our town has room for 2 x 4x4 tables and not enough room for people to stand back to back in that. To be honest I never go in.

 

 

[wayniac]

Caution:  This might get a little ranty.

I am in the US.  I am 100% behind the idea of a club versus a game store.

I have been of the mindset for many years now that the "age of the FLGS" is over.  I have never seen another business model that basically tries to bully and guilt-trip you into buying there versus elsewhere (the old "Pay where you play" mindset) as well as encourage the same level of cliques and inter-store rivalries that feel more akin to gang wars over turf than a group of gamers.  I would infinitely prefer a gaming club, for a variety of reasons also including more open exposure to other game systems.  I have personally seen people derided and/or bullied at a game store, sometimes even by the owner, for daring to suggest a game that wasn't stocked at that store (one patron who was close friends with the owner essentially called it "stealing from the store" because they did not/would not stock the game, and strongly implied that people would not even be able to play it there).

 I have seen people cussed out for mentioning other events at other stores; not "Go play here instead this store sucks" but more like "XYZ store is having a tournament next weekend if anyone is interested in carpooling there".  I have seen a longterm clique at a game store turn away new players and/or bully them because they weren't part of the social group that extended outside of gaming events.  Couple that with the fact it's often cheaper and faster to get things by ordering them online (you tend to have a choice between "Pay full retail and if you have to order something, wait weeks" versus "Get a discount, usually free or low shipping, and get it within days"), and other than providing space I don't see a point to the game store anymore, especially with social media.  People tend to treat their local game store like a gang or mafia family rather than just a place to play; as I said before I've seen a lot of heated arguments over someone simply saying "There's also XYZ game store to play at too" as though they were trying to shut down the first store they mention at.

I find it outright ridiculous.  No other business model relies on this type of guilt-tripping into dealing with them just for a place to play, and as someone with a lot of varied tastes I'd rather have an organized, independent club that met 1-2 a month even just for the fact it would A) Be at a neutral location so not beholden to any one store, B) Probably have more open-minded people so if someone wanted to discuss or bring a new game to play they wouldn't get jumped on for not playing the store's pet game, and C) So you wouldn't have people get angry over the mere mention of another game store in the vicinity.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I'm U.K. Based and I loved playing at veterans nights that GW stores used to run. I never really got into playing at independent stores the atmosphere always felt a little off. I spent most of my youth playing at home or at friends as we had quite a decent size group of us who had tables.


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[MrCharisma]

I'll speak on behalf of Australia (though we don't feature in either the USA or Europe). 

I'm based in Sydney (basically our capital but isn't) and we are fortunate enough to have a wide variety of locations to play at. We have;

• A strong presence of Games Workshop stores with approx 8-10 stores in a 60 minute radius, hosting a number of tables and painting stations
• A strong variety of FLGS with gaming tables, with the most popular being Good Games
• A number of independant games clubs being hosted at halls, schools, and RSL clubs which also serve beer and hot food (such as my club 'Company of Dice' hosted at South Coogee RSL 
• Personal homes are popular due to the amount of space you'll find in a traditional Australian home 

I play a number of game systems including ones that sit outside of Games Workshop (shock and horror!), so I play at at Games Workshops, at local clubs (Sutherland Battle Gamers and CoD) and at homes. I own a battle board, terrain, and a place that we can use that doesn't annoy the missus. 

As a teenager I set up a games club with my local community hall / centre. As a non for profit we were able to secure space at a low price. The Company of Dice club that I play at is able to secure a large space at no cost because our members are buying beer and food in a non-busy time (Saturday day). We have about 100 active players now which is a substantial amount of money for the club. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

I'll speak on behalf of Australia (though we don't feature in either the USA or Europe). 

Well according to the Eurovision Song contest you're in Europe [emoji846]


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[MrCharisma]

Just now, Ollie Grimwood said:

Well according to the Eurovision Song contest you're in Europe

 

I'll take that... but we were guests last year, and earnt our spot with a cracking performance in 2016. We're hijacking the thread so I'll stop because I could take about Eurovision for hours!

[AkumaKaze]

1 hour ago, MrCharisma said:

I'll take that... but we were guests last year, and earnt our spot with a cracking performance in 2016. We're hijacking the thread so I'll stop because I could take about Eurovision for hours!

Of course Australia can be added to the discussion!

[Rhellion]

1 hour ago, wayniac said:

Caution:  This might get a little ranty.

I am in the US.  I am 100% behind the idea of a club versus a game store.

I have been of the mindset for many years now that the "age of the FLGS" is over.  I have never seen another business model that basically tries to bully and guilt-trip you into buying there versus elsewhere (the old "Pay where you play" mindset) as well as encourage the same level of cliques and inter-store rivalries that feel more akin to gang wars over turf than a group of gamers.  I would infinitely prefer a gaming club, for a variety of reasons also including more open exposure to other game systems.  I have personally seen people derided and/or bullied at a game store, sometimes even by the owner, for daring to suggest a game that wasn't stocked at that store (one patron who was close friends with the owner essentially called it "stealing from the store" because they did not/would not stock the game, and strongly implied that people would not even be able to play it there).

 I have seen people cussed out for mentioning other events at other stores; not "Go play here instead this store sucks" but more like "XYZ store is having a tournament next weekend if anyone is interested in carpooling there".  I have seen a longterm clique at a game store turn away new players and/or bully them because they weren't part of the social group that extended outside of gaming events.  Couple that with the fact it's often cheaper and faster to get things by ordering them online (you tend to have a choice between "Pay full retail and if you have to order something, wait weeks" versus "Get a discount, usually free or low shipping, and get it within days"), and other than providing space I don't see a point to the game store anymore, especially with social media.  People tend to treat their local game store like a gang or mafia family rather than just a place to play; as I said before I've seen a lot of heated arguments over someone simply saying "There's also XYZ game store to play at too" as though they were trying to shut down the first store they mention at.

I find it outright ridiculous.  No other business model relies on this type of guilt-tripping into dealing with them just for a place to play, and as someone with a lot of varied tastes I'd rather have an organized, independent club that met 1-2 a month even just for the fact it would A) Be at a neutral location so not beholden to any one store, B) Probably have more open-minded people so if someone wanted to discuss or bring a new game to play they wouldn't get jumped on for not playing the store's pet game, and C) So you wouldn't have people get angry over the mere mention of another game store in the vicinity.

I've never seen anything like this. Stores around here generally support each other and cross promote.

Also, they are providing space to play and terrain. If you don't buy models there... you lose that space. Simple enough.

 

 

[wayniac]

7 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

I've never seen anything like this. Stores around here generally support each other and cross promote.

Also, they are providing space to play and terrain. If you don't buy models there... you lose that space. Simple enough.

It is, however I think it takes more than just "space to play and terrain" to get people to shop there, since a club can get space to play and terrain as well and not make you feel like a thief and a pariah for wanting to get a discount on expensive models.  And as I said in my experience that's often what you get.  When I have the choice of having a store order something and wait 2+ weeks or more and pay full retail price (which has happened a lot), or order online, get a discount and get it faster, online always wins except in rare impulse buying situations.  If the store itself has a good stock and offers a discount, then it's an easier choice to shop there.

[Dez]

In my area (Western Mass) we're pretty lucky to have multiple stores. I personally don't mind paying where I play. I wouldn't go to a bar with my own 6 pack or expect a discount on beer because I can get it faster and cheaper from a package store or expect everyone to get along with me. You'll find drama everywhere, and I do find it funny that game stores in particular are 'cliquey'. My vision for wargaming in my general area has always been a united one...but I'm afraid few share that vision. I think gamers should travel to different areas and stores and support them all as well as their events.

I've also got a full table at home and an area to game, and we also go over each others houses. In addition, there is at least one gaming club. The club doesn't have it's own space, is tied to a specific store, and doesn't tend to do anything independent of the store.

 

[AkumaKaze]

20 minutes ago, wayniac said:

It is, however I think it takes more than just "space to play and terrain" to get people to shop there, since a club can get space to play and terrain as well and not make you feel like a thief and a pariah for wanting to get a discount on expensive models.  And as I said in my experience that's often what you get.  When I have the choice of having a store order something and wait 2+ weeks or more and pay full retail price (which has happened a lot), or order online, get a discount and get it faster, online always wins except in rare impulse buying situations.  If the store itself has a good stock and offers a discount, then it's an easier choice to shop there.

So not to play my hand, but actually working in the hobby industry is proving that this is becoming the the case more and more.  Stores only really want guaranteed sales, which means that if you actually want to get product in a timely fashion you need to pre-order the product upon its initial release.  It also does not help that distributors only care about pre-orders and the first 90 days of sales.  After that they usually drop the line entirely.  

[AkumaKaze]

8 minutes ago, Dez said:

In my area (Western Mass) we're pretty lucky to have multiple stores. I personally don't mind paying where I play. I wouldn't go to a bar with my own 6 pack or expect a discount on beer because I can get it faster and cheaper from a package store or expect everyone to get along with me. You'll find drama everywhere, and I do find it funny that game stores in particular are 'cliquey'. My vision for wargaming in my general area has always been a united one...but I'm afraid few share that vision. I think gamers should travel to different areas and stores and support them all as well as their events.

I've also got a full table at home and an area to game, and we also go over each others houses. In addition, there is at least one gaming club. The club doesn't have it's own space, is tied to a specific store, and doesn't tend to do anything independent of the store.

 

The "house circuit" is becoming a thing in the Atlanta area.  Mostly due to traffic and what people want out of their gaming experience.  Most notably, as mentioned before, is the ability to grill out and drink and not care what others say.  This ties to the idea of the game club.  There are certain people that you are okay bringing into your home.  This is similar to the club and "selective membership"

 

[wayniac]

Just now, AkumaKaze said:

So not to play my hand, but actually working in the hobby industry is proving that this is becoming the the case more and more.  Stores only really want guaranteed sales, which means that if you actually want to get product in a timely fashion you need to pre-order the product upon its initial release.  It also does not help that distributors only care about pre-orders and the first 90 days of sales.  After that they usually drop the line entirely.  

My primary experience with the bad side of this was for Warmachine (as I play AOS/40k at a GW store so stock is not an issue).  In short, the store had barely anything and a few times I would place an order, only for it to end up taking 2-3 weeks or more (some stuff never arrived) to arrive, and on top of that factoring in the minuscule discount and sales tax meant I was saving a few cents at best.  At the time, online retailers were offering around a 30% discount (which has since stopped) and would send stock out within a week, so there was literally no reason other than feeling bad for the store to ever buy anything there.

This is of course slightly different with GW products, and I almost exclusively buy things at my local GW (although sometimes I regret it due to the pricing) simply because it's easier to go there and buy things.

[AkumaKaze]

1 minute ago, wayniac said:

My primary experience with the bad side of this was for Warmachine (as I play AOS/40k at a GW store so stock is not an issue).  In short, the store had barely anything and a few times I would place an order, only for it to end up taking 2-3 weeks or more (some stuff never arrived) to arrive, and on top of that factoring in the minuscule discount and sales tax meant I was saving a few cents at best.  At the time, online retailers were offering around a 30% discount (which has since stopped) and would send stock out within a week, so there was literally no reason other than feeling bad for the store to ever buy anything there.

This is of course slightly different with GW products, and I almost exclusively buy things at my local GW (although sometimes I regret it due to the pricing) simply because it's easier to go there and buy things.

A lot of this has to do with our distribution model.  Most stores ONLY go with distributors instead of buying direct from GW/Privateer/pick a company.  The distributor will take the order but if they don't have stock on hand, they will wait for multiple stores to order the same product before they request stock from a manufacturer.  Then by the time they get it in, they disperse it to the stores that ordered it.  This is where your 2-3 weeks comes in.  

[Southern trolls]

Here in the great state of Alabama I play at both the local GW stores and our Gaming group that's either at a house or local Game Center. Our group actually meets about 2hrs away from me in Nashville, where my home town is so I don't mind the drive.

If I am looking for competitive play or practice for the upcoming A-conn event or any tournament, I play with my group. We have 4 guys going to compete at A-conn and we are generally well versed in game rules, units, and strategy. So it makes for a great competitive environment. 

 

However, if I want to just play a quick game to test out units or things along those lines I go to our store. Generally my store environment is chill and not very competitive. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

Clubs definitely do seem to be the prevailing force in the UK. Beyond playing at GW stores when I was a kid in the 90's, and the Wargaming\RPG society at university I've been with (and help run) one of the biggest independent clubs in the country outside of London for the past seven years. 

The camaraderie that's built around something that you've helped to build and grow is quite something. That being said it would have never came to be if the LGS hadn't shut down and therefore was a need for somewhere to play non-GW games. So in a way we did build off the community that the LGS had garnered.

But like others have said the LGS business model is one that is somewhat outdated but I may be biased due to not playing at one for all that long.