Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[TheOtherJosh]

Like any game, this is between two individuals. Have it as part of your pre-game discussion. You could choose to not use unique characters in your roster. Something like: "Hi, I prefer to not used named characters in my force, and here's my Army, and their backstory. I'm using the Goretide battalion to best match my forces."

 

Will this be different for tournaments. Maybe. It's only a problem when the issue is actually a problem.

 

Technically, you could take both Khul and another Mighty Lord of Khorne in the battalion. Make the second MLoK your general. Now you have two MLoK ....

 

I'd say that change is good, but this isn't the Tzeentch conversation.

 

And, as a side note: It isn't possible to get a full Goretide warscroll in matched play (all 8 choices). There are too many leader models required ... even at 2500 points.

 

[Arkiham]

Seems they've seen the negative feedback.

 

Hopefully they will do something 

[RuneBrush]

Tempted to pen a message to GW about Khul as I don't think they've actually achieved what they wanted to when you look at the logistics of using the character in an army.  From a narrative/thematic point of view, they're right on the nose.

The Goretide battalion is meant to represent Khul's army in Ashqy and as such if you're running it then he should be in charge rather than a "random other MLoK"*.  This works really well and I've personally been running it like this since Blades of Khorne came out

The problem comes when people are looking to incorporate this into their matched play armies, Khul costs an extra 60 points and duplicates Ashqy's Bane from The Goretide battalion (so the only thing you gain is the D6" movement).  If you're building your list thematically you're going to want to make him your general, which precludes him getting a Command Trait in addition to an Artefact.  Ultimately the net result is your army just went up 60 points and arguably has less punch than previously.

I've said this in a couple of places so far, but my opinion is that if you're running Khul, The Goretide battalion should be free at a minimum.  I'd also like to see him gain something extra to differentiate him from a regular MLoK too - and not just the Reality-splitting Axe in all phases (which should be the case as standard).  Possibly something that prevents him being one-shotted (a huge vulnerability to all models with under 6 wounds), or an extra bonus to The Goretide to represent Khorne's favour.

Sadly I'm sat here thinking that somebody doesn't really love/understand Khorne.  I felt that Blades of Khorne didn't really harmonise Daemons, Bloodbound and Mortals very well and just made what we did well slightly better (rather than giving us a few counters to some of our weaknesses) and this latest release has just been sloppy - the Bloodsecrator is just a copy/paste from the Bloodbound Battletome and Khul is lackluster if you're already running The Goretide.

 

* I also think that the intention was to always have Khul and Vandus as named characters and the generic warscrolls got shoe-horned in.

[Killax]

10 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

* I also think that the intention was to always have Khul and Vandus as named characters and the generic warscrolls got shoe-horned in.

Exact.
- From the narrative standpoint as mentioned before I understand the mandatory inclusion, likewise we have Archaon with his own Vanguard force as a Named character leading a specific Battalion.
- I also understand why the current description enforces you to use him with The Goretide, basically altering The Goretide because the whole description in The Goretide allready refers to this Mighty Lord of Khorne being Khorgos Khul and his mighty Fleshhound Grizzlemaw.
- I even understand as to why GW tossed a coin and put 200 point on him. It's too expensive for him but the prime reason as to why this is the case has averything to do with the fact that they cannot obtain Command Abilities nor Artefacts.

What I do not understand is:
1. How the creative team working on this missed this.
2. Why his Axe works differently.
3. Why Gorelord is called Gore Lord on him.
4. Why the Bloodsecrator restored to his old wording.
5. Why the  'new' Bloodsecrator lacks the Bloodbound Keyword again.

It's a lot of strange design revolving around 2 models. It's very easy to:
1. Mention that The Goretide effectively changed as per now. (Errata)
2. Mention alternatively that Khul is a may option. (Allows for all the narrative design and has no influence on matched play)
3. Mention what the heck their intention is with the Bloodsecrator these days. (FAQ since BoK day 1)

[misthv]

23 hours ago, Killax said:

If you have a phone with the app you have the warscroll.

As said, we now have to play a game where we dont know he and his description excists?

Lol...

I am totally on your side here. They need to update the Warscroll Battalion to make this clear, and even then we'd have the option to run the old one...

[JontyGoesGaming]

Hi folks - I've been running mainly Khorne Daemons, and struggling slightly with the damage output.

Can anyone give me a bit of advice on where I'm going wrong with Bloodletters - I'm finding that on 32mm bases I just can't get enough of them into combat for their 1 attack to make a difference - even with the buffs up from having 20 in the unit and the Bloodsecrator in the backfield I'm still generally getting only 5 or 6 actually into combat. 

Am I expecting the bloodletters to be too choppy? 

I'd hoped Bloodcrushers would be fairly killy, but they don't seem to hit any harder either. The single attack from the hellblade isn't enough to do real damage, while the Juggernauts hit and wound ok, but fail to punch anything with no rend.

I do include some Bloodbound units, but having almost finished the army I don't really want to start all over again with hordes and hordes of new models, or am I tying one arm behind my back by not really including anything other than some wrathmongers?

[Arkiham]

Probably a bloodsecrator would do it, maybe wrathmongers.

There is contention about stacking bloodsecrators atm so letters aren't as potent as they once were

[Jaehaerys]

1 hour ago, JontyGoesGaming said:

Hi folks - I've been running mainly Khorne Daemons, and struggling slightly with the damage output.

Can anyone give me a bit of advice on where I'm going wrong with Bloodletters - I'm finding that on 32mm bases I just can't get enough of them into combat for their 1 attack to make a difference - even with the buffs up from having 20 in the unit and the Bloodsecrator in the backfield I'm still generally getting only 5 or 6 actually into combat. 

Am I expecting the bloodletters to be too choppy? 

I'd hoped Bloodcrushers would be fairly killy, but they don't seem to hit any harder either. The single attack from the hellblade isn't enough to do real damage, while the Juggernauts hit and wound ok, but fail to punch anything with no rend.

I do include some Bloodbound units, but having almost finished the army I don't really want to start all over again with hordes and hordes of new models, or am I tying one arm behind my back by not really including anything other than some wrathmongers?

Depends what you're hitting but isn't that just practice with piling in and positioning? With Bloodsecrator and usually a crimson crowned hero nearby I can get a hefty amount of attacks in.

Bloodcrushers I only use to block really as they cover a decent area and they are mandatory when i use skullseeker host (think that's the one anyway) for most games at the moment.

[Killax]

@JontyGoesGaming For Bloodletters the set up is fairly simple if you want them to be choppy, however it also eats at your soul (says someone who's still in the process of making 90) from a hobby perspective.

1. Run them in units of 30, also locally figure out if the playing group is okay with you having 2 banners in there (Bloodletters are one of the few units who can have this, there are more however, it is not a typo).
2. Consider if you liked these 30 and consider Murderhost as your next step (something I did). Murderhost gives you a cool feeling for a Herald because he's required and kind of neat with Mark of the Slayer or The Crimson Crown and due to Murderhost being so cheap he feels like a budget Hero anyway.
Most of all, this added speed has deemed essential to me. It's akin to them having a free move most of the time and this free move most certainly also allows you to get into melee with more. (Logical but it might not always seem obvious)
3. Bloodletters with a Bloodletter Hero are maniacs. It's why I like Murderhost so much again. I run it with the Skullmaster, the added speed and smaller size allows you to get him where he is more needed. 

Then as Ark said, Bloodsecrators and Wrathmongers help. I feel the Bloodsecrator is required for any Khorne army. I feel Wrathmongers are an excellent addition if you can find room for them and do not have a dedicated monster hunter yet. (MLoK with Mark of the Destroyer or Bloodthirsters with Immense Power are legit monster hunters aswell).

Lastly by comparison Bloodcrushers just arn't worth 160 points. You can compair them to Skullcrushers and see that difference and it's often argued that Skullcrushers need Brass Stampede to fully shine. This is also true. For competitive purposes Bloodcrushers have no reliable function that cannot be found elsewhere for another cost. I'm sorry to say that but I have not be able to find a reason to include them over X and Y, not even in Battalions.

Hope that helped!

[TheOtherJosh]

...I'm finding that on 32mm bases I just can't get enough of them into combat for their 1 attack to make a difference ...

You can help a little with that in model placement.

To get your second row within the 1" range you need to place them 1/2" away from each other for the first row contacting the model you're attacking.

So your placement is:
model, 1/2" space, model, 1/2" space (etc).

That 1/2" Space is where you then slide your second row into. The 1/2" space between your bloodletters places the bases far enough apart that you can get that second row of attackers within the 1" distance.

[Easytyger]

2 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

 

You can help a little with that in model placement.

To get your second row within the 1" range you need to place them 1/2" away from each other for the first row contacting the model you're attacking.

So your placement is:
model, 1/2" space, model, 1/2" space (etc).

That 1/2" Space is where you then slide your second row into. The 1/2" space between your bloodletters places the bases far enough apart that you can get that second row of attackers within the 1" distance.

 

Yes this placement is very helpful to get more Letters in the fight. 

@JontyGoesGaming Can you describe what units you are facing and the placement where you could only get 5-6 letters to attack the enemy? It seems you should have been able to wrap around a smaller unit unless there was terrain blocking you. 

[Jaehaerys]

Anyone had significant play time with Goretide and can let me know their thoughts? Am considering making an army for it (currently run murderhost/pilgrims and murderhost/skullseeker lists) so I have most of the heros and a few warriors/reavers kicking around.

[RuneBrush]

18 hours ago, Jaehaerys said:

Anyone had significant play time with Goretide and can let me know their thoughts? Am considering making an army for it (currently run murderhost/pilgrims and murderhost/skullseeker lists) so I have most of the heros and a few warriors/reavers kicking around.

I like it - needs some careful thought on the best way to plan outside the mandatory units.  It's quite popular to run a Lord on Juggernaut as your general to make the best use of Slaughterborn.  The D6" move really helps the army overall and allows for all sorts of shenanigans.

[Jaehaerys]

5 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I like it - needs some careful thought on the best way to plan outside the mandatory units.  It's quite popular to run a Lord on Juggernaut as your general to make the best use of Slaughterborn.  The D6" move really helps the army overall and allows for all sorts of shenanigans.

Have you tried pilgrims with it? Or do you find 3 battalion overkill?

[Killax]

On 2017-6-21 at 2:30 PM, Jaehaerys said:

Anyone had significant play time with Goretide and can let me know their thoughts? Am considering making an army for it (currently run murderhost/pilgrims and murderhost/skullseeker lists) so I have most of the heros and a few warriors/reavers kicking around.

2 Games... I really like it but I cannot speak for it now because I think we have to use Khul. Which basically invalidates my current list and makes me uncertain if the army can cope with it, by large because I really liked how it preformed. 

While some on the forums have suggested that Khul does not have to be the Mighty Lord of Khorne in the Goretide I cannot unsee what his Description is telling us...

The list I ran was 
- MLoK, Mark of the Destroyer and different Command Traits
- Bloodsecrator
- Bloodsecrator
- Bloodsecrator/Valkia
- Exalted Deathbringer with Impaling Spear, Gorecleaver
- Bloodstoker, Talisman of Burning Blood
- 10 Blood Warriors - Goreglaive
- 10 Blood Warriors - Goreglaive
- 10 Blood Warriors - Goreglaive
- 5 Skullreapers
- 5 Skullreapers
- 5 Skullreapers
- 5 Wrathmongers

Still had 20 points left and mostly proxied the army but it functioned really well. The MLoK had Mark of the Destroyer and I used different Command Traits for both games, which I feel didnt matter too much anyway. The prime thing I liked is how the MLoK actually operates as a semi Wrathmonger unit by himself (killed easy but is lethal to monsters) and how despite the 20 point difference in build I really didn't feel disadvantaged.

Now with Khul out, and this 1980 army, I should somehow find another 40 points... This can be done by removing Wrathmongers and adding another unit of Skullreapers but frankly speaking I'm not too interested in that approach, plus it removes my painted Wrathmongers. One of the cool things in the second game with Valkia was that she could scalp a Hero on the second turn who most certainly didnt expect it and generally speaking is also not one of the options Khorne has. Though I have to admit, I was lucky on my rolled 5 for the D6" movement  

Then in addition to that I don't know if Khul has the double Aqshy's Bane or not and generally have to equip models with Artefacts I don't feel like giving more reasons to be removed...

Cheers,
 

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys said:

Have you tried pilgrims with it? Or do you find 3 battalion overkill?

I've not tried pilgrims with it - mainly because I don't have any painted bloodreavers (not a massive fan).  I would say that it has the potential with the extended range.  You may have picked up on this, but it's worth mentioning that with it's current wording, pilgrims cannot be part of goretide (as it is a "Khorne" battalion rather than "Khorne Bloodbound"), so the models in it wouldn't benefit from the D6" hero phase move.

@Killax is right though that until GW clear up the mess with the new Khul warscroll, the Goretide battalion works out quite costly and you've got a bit of confusion with his warscroll for things like Ashqy's Bane

[Jaehaerys]

Just now, RuneBrush said:

I've not tried pilgrims with it - mainly because I don't have any painted bloodreavers (not a massive fan).  I would say that it has the potential with the extended range.  You may have picked up on this, but it's worth mentioning that with it's current wording, pilgrims cannot be part of goretide (as it is a "Khorne" battalion rather than "Khorne Bloodbound"), so the models in it wouldn't benefit from the D6" hero phase move.

@Killax is right though that until GW clear up the mess with the new Khul warscroll, the Goretide battalion works out quite costly and you've got a bit of confusion with his warscroll for things like Ashqy's Bane

Yea I was looking at taking it as a 2 drop and having pilgrims outside. They wouldn't need the move so much.

And on Khul, people I play with don't think it's mandatory if you don't take Khul in your list so I'll probably carry on. View it as stopping you having a MLoK as goretide leader gaining all those buffs and Khul who has those buffs on warscroll anyway. If GW eventually rule differently then of course we'll change to the official ruling.

[RuneBrush]

1 minute ago, Jaehaerys said:

Yea I was looking at taking it as a 2 drop and having pilgrims outside. They wouldn't need the move so much.

And on Khul, people I play with don't think it's mandatory if you don't take Khul in your list so I'll probably carry on. View it as stopping you having a MLoK as goretide leader gaining all those buffs and Khul who has those buffs on warscroll anyway. If GW eventually rule differently then of course we'll change to the official ruling.

That's cool - my local group have a similar attitude too, just always frustrating when something that worked fine gets fuddled around   Plus I'd have an OCD moment because I use the warscroll cards and there's not one for Khul

[Killax]

45 minutes ago, Jaehaerys said:

Yea I was looking at taking it as a 2 drop and having pilgrims outside. They wouldn't need the move so much.

And on Khul, people I play with don't think it's mandatory if you don't take Khul in your list so I'll probably carry on. View it as stopping you having a MLoK as goretide leader gaining all those buffs and Khul who has those buffs on warscroll anyway. If GW eventually rule differently then of course we'll change to the official ruling.

 

39 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

That's cool - my local group have a similar attitude too, just always frustrating when something that worked fine gets fuddled around   Plus I'd have an OCD moment because I use the warscroll cards and there's not one for Khul

Yeah if the local group doesnt mind, more power to them! Here people dont know how to see the rule either... So instead of trying to start a debate Ill just pick something different. Goretide is very Bloodbound heavy anyway so I dont mind it too much right now.

Running Pilgrims outside of it is certainly an option, though, it's also expensive. Your allready 120 points deep into Battalions, which is okay for 2K but going 200 is pushing it in my opinion. Especially since your now also forced taking Bloodreavers and Bloodwarriors who are slower and not part of Slaughterborn either.

From my perspective that forced investment makes it nice to start out small with tons of abilities but those 80 points you pay for Gore Pilgrims could also be another unit of Bloodreavers or almost 5 Blood Warriors. However as always, play as you like!

I can confirm that The Goretide as is is wonderful. Having a unit of Wrathmongers in there and a MLoK with Mark of the Destroyer and all the other goodness basically allows us to have 2 monster killers and a massive brick of Rend killers and non-Rend killers. Very cool and armoured all in all. 

Cheers,

[Jaehaerys]

14 hours ago, Killax said:

 

Yeah if the local group doesnt mind, more power to them! Here people dont know how to see the rule either... So instead of trying to start a debate Ill just pick something different. Goretide is very Bloodbound heavy anyway so I dont mind it too much right now.

Running Pilgrims outside of it is certainly an option, though, it's also expensive. Your allready 120 points deep into Battalions, which is okay for 2K but going 200 is pushing it in my opinion. Especially since your now also forced taking Bloodreavers and Bloodwarriors who are slower and not part of Slaughterborn either.

From my perspective that forced investment makes it nice to start out small with tons of abilities but those 80 points you pay for Gore Pilgrims could also be another unit of Bloodreavers or almost 5 Blood Warriors. However as always, play as you like!

I can confirm that The Goretide as is is wonderful. Having a unit of Wrathmongers in there and a MLoK with Mark of the Destroyer and all the other goodness basically allows us to have 2 monster killers and a massive brick of Rend killers and non-Rend killers. Very cool and armoured all in all. 

Cheers,

Thanks for your comments. 

On my list I viewed that it was only 1 unit of warrior and 1 unit of reaver outside of the goretide. I don't mind 2 units being slower and the reavers can just be blood tithe material. I obviously have another 3 units of blood warrior in the goretide, two units of skullreaper and one unit of wrathmongers. So thought that would be pretty scary moving across the table. Thought of running Valkia as a target they can't ignore because if they do they will likely lose a hero quickly. So if they target her it will leave the rest to venture up the field. My only concern is lack of wound reroll for the Skullreapers in early turns and that self inflicting wounds.

With pilgrims I like the beefed bubble, and plus one to hit and save.

[Killax]

1 hour ago, Jaehaerys said:

Thanks for your comments. 

On my list I viewed that it was only 1 unit of warrior and 1 unit of reaver outside of the goretide. I don't mind 2 units being slower and the reavers can just be blood tithe material. I obviously have another 3 units of blood warrior in the goretide, two units of skullreaper and one unit of wrathmongers. So thought that would be pretty scary moving across the table. Thought of running Valkia as a target they can't ignore because if they do they will likely lose a hero quickly. So if they target her it will leave the rest to venture up the field. My only concern is lack of wound reroll for the Skullreapers in early turns and that self inflicting wounds.

With pilgrims I like the beefed bubble, and plus one to hit and save.

Seems like a plan so by all means go for it!

Looking forward to see the list so that comments can be made a little more specific. I really like Valkia aswell but for a list including Gore Pilgrims I'm not too certain how much functional room is left for her. A Bloodstoker still can be essential to any Bloodbound heavy list next to a Bloodsecrator for example.

[Jaehaerys]

 

MLoK

Bloodsecrator

Slaughterpriest

Slaughterpriest

Exalted Deathbringer

Valkia

 

10x Blood Warrior

10x Blood Warrior

5x Blood Warrior

5x Blood Warrior

10x Blood Reaver

5x Skull Reaper

5x Skull Reaper

5x Wrathmonger

Slaughterborn

Goretide

Gore Pilgrims

1990 Points

 

[TheOtherJosh]

 
MLoK
Bloodsecrator
Slaughterpriest
Slaughterpriest
Exalted Deathbringer
Valkia
 
10x Blood Warrior
10x Blood Warrior
5x Blood Warrior
5x Blood Warrior
10x Blood Reaver
5x Skull Reaper
5x Skull Reaper
5x Wrathmonger
Slaughterborn
Goretide
Gore Pilgrims
1990 Points
 

If you're following the "new requirements" Warscroll:

You're missing Khul. Which puts that list over 1990 points.

[Jaehaerys]

4 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

 

If you're following the "new requirements" Warscroll:

You're missing Khul. Which puts that list over 1990 points.

 

Look up a bit  I'm not taking Khul so what's on his scroll shouldn't affect me. That's how my friends play. I'm going by the batallion wording. Until GW rule differently then I'm going that way.

[TheOtherJosh]

Look up a bit [emoji4] I'm not taking Khul so what's on his scroll shouldn't affect me. That's how my friends play. I'm going by the batallion wording. Until GW rule differently then I'm going that way.

 

If you're playing "friendly games" then sure, wait for whatever you'd like. If you're prepared for the likely eventuality and the expectation of need to change in your forces. Tzeentch sends his blessings.

 

While you may be waiting for the "ruling" you've made another interesting tactical decision that locks you out of blood tithe functionality.

 

You haven't allowed yourself any reinforcement points. Which means that you can't leverage "Blood Pact".

 

(As an aside: it would be advantageous to define who is in which warscroll batallion.)