Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Mirage8112]

9 hours ago, StokieRich said:

I get that and agree, units don't need to be "worth their points"  however I don't recall anything in my post that used the term or implied they were a "waste of points" - You've just taken it and ran with your own thing, like a true politician!

While its true that you didn't use the exact words "Worth their points", you did make an argument (or comment) that means more or less the same thing:
 

On 5/25/2017 at 0:43 AM, StokieRich said:

For 600pts you can do so much more with any other unit in the battletome, the Wychfire Coven is something that looks like it might be decent on paper, and maybe it would be if the Acolytes were any better, but I'm really not convinced it's worth anything.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just looking at the rational behind your arguments. I.e. " for 600pts this battalion brings less to the table than 600pts of something else". What point would you be making with the above statement other than acolytes and the pyroflame coven aren't "worth their points"? "you can play acolytes if you want to, but you would do better to take an equivalent point value in another unit." Which is, in fact, not true at all. 

The question is not "should it take acolytes or skyfires?" (You'll see that in the sample list I posted earlier with 2x 20 acolytes also has 9 skyfires.) the question is "do acolytes perform a unique role on the battlefield that is more suited to their warscroll profiles/abiltiies than another unit in the codex"? And I think the answer is yes. Skyfires are excellent at killing stuff, but there is more to winning games than just taking an opponents models off the table.  

9 hours ago, StokieRich said:

Yea I've tried something similar mate with the Acolytes and the Pyrofane Cult, I love the models so I'll try and make them work. I'm under no illusions that they are anywhere near the competitive level of Skyfires etc. 

If your only measure of the competitiveness of a unit is how many wounds they are capable of of causing per turn, then I'd agree with you. But as I said above, there's more to the game than just causing wounds. Every unit in the codex is unique and brings something different to the table. Furthermore, some things work better together than others. As I said in my previous post, acolytes + enlightened is a relatively fast moving high damage output blended unit and those particular units compliment each other very well. 
 

The meaning of "competitive" in this context is a list that can win a game against most other lists. Acolytes have a place in a competitive list just like anything else in the codex. It depends on the role you assign them to play, and how well you can utilize them in that role. Acolytes aren't really the hammers that skyfires are. If you try to use them in the role you'll be disappointed. But mix them with something else and play to their strengths, and they'll do just fine. 

I've had "subpar" units end up being the lynchpin that wins games. Either by capturing an objective or acting as a sacrifice to bait an enemy into a trap. Whoever says "hooks are better than bait because hooks catch the fish and bait just gets eaten" hasn't tried fishing without bait. You need both. 

 

[Soulsmith]

@Mirage8112 Just wondering, what is your advice on using acolytes and enlightened together? Say 2 units of ten and one 3, witchfire coven style. Could you give me some situations? Not used them but I love both models so I want to.

[N_Watson]

Just had my first game with my Tzeentch Daemon army last week and loving it. Playing a softer change host as I'm primarily playing against people who are just getting into stronger list building, but even toned down, and not making use of all the rules, it put out some serious damage! 

Might need to think of a way to soften it up a bit more after testing in a few more games for the club. 

Got everything needed to play the host duplicitous list everyone knows about, but I was playing with this. 

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Aether Tether 
- Artefact: Phantasmal Weapons 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Kairos Fateweaver (340)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner (100)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)

Battalions
Changehost (60)

Total: 1690/2000

Summoning was a Balewind, 10 blues, 10 brimstone's and an exalted flamer. If you haven't tried the Kairos and treacherous bond spell steal yet, give it a go. It's good fun! 

[Mirage8112]

8 hours ago, Soulsmith said:

@Mirage8112 Just wondering, what is your advice on using acolytes and enlightened together? Say 2 units of ten and one 3, witchfire coven style. Could you give me some situations? Not used them but I love both models so I want to.

Good question. Before I give you some thoughts on uses, I should mention my reasoning so you can see the "why" as well as the "how". The numbers here are for 6 enlightened and an equal number of skyfires for comparison. For units of 3 just cut the wound counts in half:   

Enlightened have a lot to offer as a unit. They CC damage outpaces Skyfires by a fair bit, thanks to the fact that their spears do 2 damage, have a rend of -1 hit on 4's (vs 5's for skyfires) and wound on 3's (vs 5's). Also Preternatural Enhancement buffs their CC abilities making their spears and beak hit on 3's.   Under optimum conditions (i.e. meeting their respective requirements for preternatural enhancement, and also attack order for guided by the past/future), 6 skyfires will put out about 26 wounds before saves. Enlightened will put out nearly 10 more wounds under similar conditions ~38 wounds give or take. This is to be expected, as skyfires split their damage between the shooting and CC phases while Enlightened have all their eggs in one basket.

One notable difference is the majority of Skyfires CC damage comes from the disks which get D3 attacks. Since you roll a single D3 and apply it to the unit as whole, their damage output can be quite swingy. if you roll a 1 for their attacks, Skyfires damage output drops to 17 wounds while Enlightened damage output drops to 29 wounds. 17 wounds sounds like plenty, until you run into a Huskar on a Stonehorn who halves all damage received. 29 damage from a unit of enlightened is still enough to drop one in a single turn, while 17... isn't. That stone horn stands a good chance of healing right back to (or nearly to) full health in the next turn, and will probably eat that unit of skyfires should be unlucky enough to roll low for the disks attacks. (we'll come back to this later)

The main difference between the two units is not just the addition of a ranged attack on skyfires, but also the manner in which they gain their rerolls: Skyfires gain rerolls if they attack first, enlightened gain rerolls if the enemy attacks first. This makes skyfires perfect for attacking a unit in our turn (since we get first choice of activation), but if they get charged in the enemy's turn, they'll likely get shredded. The enemy attacking first means they won't be able to get their rerolls which drop their damage from 26 wounds to 13. If the enemy has an armor save, that number drops even more; a 5+ drops their damage to ~8-9 wounds. They have plenty of wounds, 4 apiece; but with a save of only 5+ they'll likely lose 2-3 models if anything with an ounce of hitting power charges them. 

Enlightened on the other hand gain rerolls if the enemy attacks first, which gives us a significant problem. Enlightened are as squishy as Skyfires are, and considering their potential damage output, you want them in combat with something scary. Being able to drop 38 wounds into the enemies hammer units is very enticing, but to make it work, you really only get three options: 1. let your opponent activate first and risk major damage on the Enlightened, 2. attack with them first and lose their rolls or 3. put something in the way to take the charge so your Enlightened can pile in and get the benefits of their rerolls. 

Option 1 is pretty much a non-starter. Enlightened are just a paper thin as skyfires are and losing 3 before attacking is a bitter pill to swallow. A loss of 3 Enlightened (very possible if charging anything punchy) drops their damage output to 19 wounds per turn. 

Option 2 is nearly the same. Attacking first without the benefit of rerolls means their damage output drops to 22 wounds. Marginally better, but not by much. 22 wounds against a 4+ save will still only pull out about 10 wounds, and if attacking a large multi-wound unit they will likely die in droves from the return attacks. Not to mention that if you have skyfires in combat simultaneously, you'll lose rerolls on both units. Pass.   

That leaves us with option 3. 

Ideally, we need to create a situation where the enemy is forced to charge a mixed unit of Enlightened + something else. This is where the Acoyltes fit in. They're cheaper than Tzaangors, have a decent ranged attack (something the Enlightened lack) they get +1 to hit from the Tzaangor shaman that's following the Enlightend unit (to take advantage of preternatural enhancement) they also have a decent 6" move and (should) be around 20 (30 is better but 20 will work just fine. 10 would word as well, but it's unlikely a unit of 10 will survive more than 1 charge) putting the unit at bravery 7-8. The tactic here is simply move them up the field as fast as they can to threaten the enemy at range. The Enlightened should sit inside the unit, roughly 2.5 inches from their front line, with the shaman roughly 4" back from the Enlightened.

In this set-up the enemy has a difficult choice. If he charges the Acolytes, the Enlightened can wait for the opponent to attack (Acolytes will die, but who cares? Unlike Tzaangors they get no bonus for unit size) and then pile in since the opponent will be within 3". Even with flying units, nothing will be able to charge the Enlightened without clearing the acolytes first. 

He could shoot, but with a scroll of the dark arts, he'll have to move well within range of the acolytes to get at the Enlightened (most ranged attacks in game are about 18") which will open him up to spells from the Shaman, ranged fire from the acolytes and then a combo charge on top of that. If your carful with your positions, you can charge with the acolytes and just move the enlightened to discourage any pile-ins from his unit. If they do opt to pile in to bring more models into play, then the Enlightened counter pile-in, rerolls and all.  Even a combo-charge with chaff and another unit will likely result in a bit pile of tears since the range on spears is 2". more than enough to attack over whatever the front line units are. 

He could try magic, but with the Tzaangor shaman and destiny dice at our disposal, that's a fools errand. Not to mention the likelihood of a mortal wound from the unit's Vulcharc. Return fire, spells and a charge.  

What does that leave? Only ignoring the unit really. This is part of my argument why the pyroflame cult or witchfyre coven add a lot to this strategy. Being able to shoot in the hero phase doubles the units damage output and stacking to wound modifiers on top of that from the pyroflame makes the combined unit really hard to ignore. Even more so if you manage to get on top of an objective. If your opponent does decide to try and ignore the unit then you are pretty free to take shots at him all game without worrying about being in range for counter charges. Furthermore if your near the center of the field, the acolytes + a Tzaangor shaman if more than enough to snipe out lone characters or peel a few extra wounds off other units in combat (10 acolytes has a decent footprint. 20 even more so). Even an extra 1-2 models on top of normal combat casualties can make a difference when battleshock rolls around. 

No other unit in the codex fits this role like acolytes. It can work with Tzaangors, but it's more expensive, and the positioning is a lot more tricky to pull off. It could work with pink horrors, but there are a lot of trade-offs. You lose the 6++ save from the shields, and while acolytes aren't fantastic in combat, pink horrors are decidedly worse. Acolytes can peel off a few more wounds worth of models (and in the end, everything helps). Not to mention the fact that horrors aren't accessible in the Arcanite battalions. Enlightened are accessible in the daemon battalions, but only in the large meta-battalions.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought explaining the reasoning behind it ultimately meant less questions, confusion, and second guessing. I think Enlightened make excellent bodyguards, and if you start thinking of them as a "charge deterrent" there's a lot of uses for them (not to mention you won't need to use destinty dice, since you're essentially baiting your enemy into charging you). Even a unit of 3 will put out nearly 20 rend -1 wounds with rerolls. In lower point games, even 3 is extraordinarily powerful.  

[StokieRich]

14 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If your only measure of the competitiveness of a unit is how many wounds they are capable of of causing per turn, then I'd agree with you. But as I said above, there's more to the game than just causing wounds. Every unit in the codex is unique and brings something different to the table. Furthermore, some things work better together than others. As I said in my previous post, acolytes + enlightened is a relatively fast moving high damage output blended unit and those particular units compliment each other very well. 

I absolutely get that principle, however they don't "do" anything unique in my opinion.

They are "far" less survivable than Tzaangor, and have far less damage output at range than Skyfires. They do absolutely nothing better than anything else in the codex unless you're counting the Vulcharc's anti caster thing.

Compare them to Pink Horrors which (even ignoring splits) cost the same, and can perform exactly the same role, throw out better ranged attacks, (Acolytes can get to the same but only with a buff from a character) get to cast a spell, and have the Wizard keyword for your Tzaangor banners.

I can't see any argument holding up that the Acolytes are in any way better than other options available other than "they have cool models"

4 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

What does that leave? Only ignoring the unit really. 

 

They could shoot them though? They die to a stiff breeze! 

I'll leave it there anyway mate, I think we've got very different views on them but are both actually planning using them in very similar ways so we at least both like them for some reason! I don't think they're particularly effective but if you're having good success with them, fantastic.

I'm not saying they're not potentially effective in a role, I just feel personally, that other units can do that role for better and/or cheaper.

All the best!

Rich

[Killax]

Hey Rich, I agree but also want to emphazise that the game isn't solely played with this competative mindset because the game isn't designed with this competative mindset. To me, as someone who plays many games, it's funny to see how on the forums both open and narrative play are rarely talked about in this sub-forum but still are a large part of the game and matched play points can be used for narrative design aswell.

From my perspective many DoT mortals are not amazing designed warscrolls. Though there are more mortals you have acces too, which in my opinion can blend extremely well with Tzeentch design as you obtain ranged support with attrition pieces what currently leads to a close to impossible to remove ranged offense. 

[Soulsmith]

Can I just say, good debate all, very interesting for someone who has only had a few very low point games. Need to read up on the whole having a unit behind another to pile in on the other unit's combat.

[Mirage8112]

 

If your only measure of the competitiveness of a unit is how many wounds they are capable of of causing per turn, then I'd agree with you. But as I said above, there's more to the game than just causing wounds. Every unit in the codex is unique and brings something different to the table. Furthermore, some things work better together than others. As I said in my previous post, acolytes + enlightened is a relatively fast moving high damage output blended unit and those particular units compliment each other very well. 

 

I absolutely get that principle, however they don't "do" anything unique in my opinion.

....

I can't see any argument holding up that the Acolytes are in any way better than other options available other than "they have cool models"

Unless they stat for stat duplicate another warscroll, they are by definition "unique". They are less survivable than Tzaangor that's totally true, but Tzaangor do not have a ranged attack, and as such are required to be in CC to generate damage (excluding the banner). Acolytes do not have to be in CC to generate damage, and are perfectly happy chipping away wounds at a distance or acting as a buffer for enlightened as described above. Tzaangor are not as well suited for this role due to the lack or having a ranged attack and being pretty killy on their own. When Tzaangors are sporting 8 great blades with 3 attacks each. That unit's CC damage output is good enough that it can operate on it's own without an Enlightened bodyguard contingent. 

(Acolytes) have far less damage output at range than Skyfires. They do absolutely nothing better than anything else in the codex unless you're counting the Vulcharc's anti caster thing.

Again with the damage thing. Dealing damage is only one component of a unit's utility. I'll give you an equivalent to the argument your making. You're basically arguing that sports cars are better than car-boats, because they're faster, the interior is nicer and you can drive them across country. That's totally true; until you run into a river you want to cross and there's no bridge... 

Skyfires fill an entirely different role in the army than acolytes do. While both sports cars and car-boats have motors, seats, and a steering wheel, they are good at different things. Until you recognize that different units are good at different things you will be handicapped as a general. You have less tools in your toolbox because you don't understand why this particular tool is better for certain tasks than any other tool in your box. Maybe you can get by with what you are using now and that's fine; most people don't need another screwdriver in their box if they have both philips head and flathead. But somewhere down the line you'll run into a screwdriver with a torx head and your "go-to" screwdriver won't get the job done. 

 

Compare them to Pink Horrors which (even ignoring splits) cost the same, and can perform exactly the same role, throw out better ranged attacks, (Acolytes can get to the same but only with a buff from a character) get to cast a spell, and have the Wizard keyword for your Tzaangor banners.

Ok. Let's compare them to Pink horrors.

 

They cost the same as Acolytes, providing you aren't using split (which you really should be doing. So in my book, thats already a mark against them) Against anything doing extra damage to daemons they're a liability. Against a War Alter say, Acolytes get their 6+ save from their shield while pink horrors get no save, (ditto anything with -2 rend) The fact that Acolytes need a hero for their +1 to hit is only handicap on paper; with the number of heroes we generally bring (and that are required by most of the battalions) it's pretty likely you'll have a hero within 9" anyway (and the method described above of stacking enlightened within their ranks has a Tzaangor Shaman nearby to buff the enlightened anyway.)  Furthermore, If your running any other spell casters it's unlikely your pink horrors will be able to cast anything due to the rule of 1's. Also if your opponent has any units around that do extra damage to wizards (witch hunter, Lord Veritant, ect) or scenery that does something similar (board covered with sylvaneth Wyldwoods) being a wizard is actually a fairly big handicap.  

 

Then there is the fact that it's pretty impossible to get to a single drop deployment by putting pink horrors in your Arcanite list (in my estimation, the two meta-battalions for daemons are not as desirable as the Arcanite battalions). Furthermore Acolytes are required for most of the Arcanite battalions. So, why in the world would you want to sacrifice your single drop AND the additonalpoints cost to add a unit of deamons into a list when you're already required to take a unit that can perform the same function about as well in nearly all cases?  

 

They could shoot them though? They die to a stiff breeze! [emoji4]

I don't see the fact that they die as a handicap. This isn't WHFB where all games are decided in terms of "points of model destroyed". You have to accept the fact that in AoS models will die. In my 10+ years of wargaming I have only had 1 game where none of my models died, (and it wasn't in AoS). The trick is making sure the inevitable model loss happens in a useful way that ultimately contributes to a win. If your positioning is right, your enemy should only be able to shoot at the acolytes and not the Enlightened. If the enemy chooses to shoot at your acolytes; Congratulations! You win. You win because they aren't shooting at your Enlightened, your heroes or any of the other components of your list that really don't want to lose. If they don't shoot at your Acolytes; you also win. Your acolytes are again free to chip away wounds at range until something gets the cojones up to take both the acolytes and their bodyguards out (a tough proposition in which you will probably fare better than your opponent will). Either way you are making effective use of a unit you are required to take. 

 

I'll leave it there anyway mate, I think we've got very different views on them but are both actually planning using them in very similar ways so we at least both like them for some reason! I don't think they're particularly effective but if you're having good success with them, fantastic.

I think our views on how to use acolytes are mostly the same, but we have different views on what "effective" means. I don't want you to think I'm salty about our discussion, and I don't want to give the impression that I think you're "so wrong" that I'm willing to argue to the death about it. However, at the same time this is a relevant discussion to list building in general, and some people might be inclined to build a list with acolytes in it. My point is that such a list can be as competitive as a list that doesn't include acolytes, because units don't operate in a vacuum. 

 

Personally, the list I'm building toward doesn't use acolytes at all. It's not because I think they're a bad unit by any means, but it's because I have enough in my collection that I don't really need Acolytes at the moment. But if somebody were to gift me a bunch I'd be plenty pleased to write a list that uses them in most effective way possible. I wouldn't think twice about using the list I posted earlier at a competitive event. I might be less inclined to use them in friendly game however, simply because it might be a bit on the strong side. 

 

Anyway good discussion! You can respond if you feel the need. No pressure either way.  [emoji3]

 

-F

 

[Arkiham]

10 hours ago, Killax said:

Hey Rich, I agree but also want to emphazise that the game isn't solely played with this competative mindset because the game isn't designed with this competative mindset. To me, as someone who plays many games, it's funny to see how on the forums both open and narrative play are rarely talked about in this sub-forum but still are a large part of the game and matched play points can be used for narrative design aswell.
 

I suspect you don't see much chatter about it as, there's less need to.

Discussing lists is a little pointless for narrative unless looking for help explaining it, open play again is juat bring what you want.

Obviously there is people who want a competitive narrative but they again typically know what they're after.

It's not like there isn't a community for open or narrative,  they just need less help I've found.

[StokieRich]

Yea we obviously disagree on the Acolytes, lets leave it there. I don't have the time or inclination to discuss further. 

In my opinion (someone who has used them every game) they're a sub par unit. From your opinion (by the sounds of it you've never used them?) they're solid, I'm just not using them right.

I'm confident in my abilities as a general and don't feel I'm handicapping myself in any way due to "not recognising" their value, I recognise they represent very little value

I've had good success across 40k, AoS, Imperial Assault, Destiny, and X-Wing, as well as being a former competitive chess player - So I'm confident in my ability to adapt!

[Magusnebula]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:25 PM, Mirage8112 said:

which get D3 attacks. Since you roll a single D3 and apply it to the unit as whole

Can I get a reference to this, I been looking everywhere for this and can't seem to find it. I know damage is rolled per hit, I had assumed attacks were the same.

[Nico]

Quote

Can I get a reference to this, I been looking everywhere for this and can't seem to find it. I know damage is rolled per hit, I had assumed attacks were the same.

This is in the Hints and Tips section just before all the Warscrolls. Damage is the only exception.

[Magusnebula]

6 minutes ago, Nico said:

This is in the Hints and Tips section just before all the Warscrolls. Damage is the only exception.

Thank you for this. Wow that can be brutal then when using fate dice....

[Nico]

Quote

Thank you for this. Wow that can be brutal then when using fate dice....

You cannot use Destiny Dice on number of attacks.

[TheOtherJosh]

Thank you for this. Wow that can be brutal then when using fate dice....

Unfortunately "Number of attacks" isn't one of the "approved" nine types of dice rolls for fate dice.

[Mirage8112]

18 minutes ago, Nico said:

19 minutes ago, Magusnebula said:

Thank you for this. Wow that can be brutal then when using fate dice....

You cannot use Destiny Dice on number of attacks.

This is exactly why Enlightened are a bit more reliable than Skyfires when it comes to CC damage. Sure 9 skyfires will rip things apart if you roll well for the number of disk attacks, but Enlightened's damage is more consistent as a whole. In fact, if you roll high for disk attacks, it's really more of a nice surprise than mandatory.  

[TheOtherJosh]

How is enlightened damage more consistent, when you're dealing with D3 attacks and D3 damage on the disk? (Other than 2 spear attacks being more consistent for enlightened than the 2 greatbow Melee attacks.)

 

[Mirage8112]

12 hours ago, StokieRich said:

Yea we obviously disagree on the Acolytes, lets leave it there. 

lol I don't think we disagree all that much on how to use them. You just seem to think that there are units in the codex that are better. I don't disagree with that. Skyfires are better than acolytes for ranged damage output. Pink horrors are better in a daemon-focused list. Tzaangors are better if you want a hard hitting CC unit. My point (which you seem to miss over and over) is that in an Arcanite list, acolytes perform a specific role very well, and are the most useful and cost efficient choice for that particular strategy. Throw them int combat unaided; yes they suck. But if you do that; you're doing it wrong. 
 

12 hours ago, StokieRich said:

In my opinion (someone who has used them every game) they're a sub par unit. From your opinion (by the sounds of it you've never used them?) they're solid, I'm just not using them right.

It's not that I don't think you're using them right (you haven't really elaborated on your specific strategies for play. Only that you win a lot.) It's that I don't think your aware of there value because they die often and don't cause enough damage for you to be happy with them. In my opinion that fact tat they unlock specific battalion benefits makes them valuable and worth taking in a list, and if you have to take them to make other units stronger, than you might as well get the most use out of them. The detailed strategy (and list) I posted above works, and I know because I've used if across various armies. I don't need to have played with this specific combination of units, because I know it works from experience. Acolytes have nearly identical stats and abilities to glade guard and this technique works bonkers well with them (even without arcane bodkins). I've even made something similar work with Tree-Revenants (albeit with some differences) who cost more per model, don't have a ranged attack and have no ward save. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that acolytes can fill the same role in that particular strategy. 

 

12 hours ago, StokieRich said:

I'm confident in my abilities as a general and don't feel I'm handicapping myself in any way due to "not recognising" their value, I recognise they represent very little value

I've had good success across 40k, AoS, Imperial Assault, Destiny, and X-Wing, as well as being a former competitive chess player - So I'm confident in my ability to adapt!

Well, congratulations on your success and experience! I'm actually surprised that somebody as well versed as you in the finer points of wargaming doesn't understand that every tool has a job that it's suited best for. Maybe it comes down to personal preference (or hubris), or perhaps you just like units to cause lots and lots of damage. I dunno. But I would hesitate discouraging other players from using units that can be effective under the right circumstances just because they don't play the way you prefer. I don't like the way beastclaw raiders play. Doesn't mean I don't think their not worth playing as an army or that I would discourage a player from picking them up. 
 

12 hours ago, StokieRich said:

I don't have the time or inclination to discuss further. 

It's funny, you keep saying that. Yet you keep responding. It sounds a little like when somebody says "I don't want to gossip, but I heard..." I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I'm also happy to keep debating the finer points of list construction. After all, what are these "let's chat" threads for if not to pick the army apart in detail?  

 

[Mirage8112]

12 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

How is enlightened damage more consistent, when you're dealing with D3 attacks and D3 damage on the disk? (Other than 2 spear attacks being more consistent for enlightened than the 2 greatbow Melee attacks.)

That's a good question. I really should have said something along the lines of "killing capacity" or wider target selection, but generally speaking I meant Enlightened are more consistent in the targets they can reliably engage and kill than skyfires are.  

The reason I say that is because knowledge of how much heavy lifting a unit can do on average in games is important, but a variable range of damage is worth considering too. If a unit has as 10 models with 2 wounds apiece, then you want to throw a unit at it that can consistently put out about ~15 damage after saves. If the unit has inspiring presence on it and you know battleshock won't be a factor then you want a unit that can put out ~20 damage after saves. In other words, if your target has 20 wounds, you don't want to throw a unit at it that averages 5 damage, because it's likely to get rolled when the return attacks come in. Nor do you want to throw a unit at it that has damage that varies from 5-25, because its unclear what side has the advantage until you get in combat. If there's a sword fight, you don't want to accidentally show up with nothing but a rock. 

Bearing that in mind, Skyfires have huge damage potential in CC. On average rolls, with optimum conditions (re-rolls, no penalties to hit ect.) a unit of 3 will put out ~13 damage per turn. That's a lot of damage for a 3 model unit. But it's also highly variable. If they don't roll well for the number of disk attacks their damage drops to ~8 damage (which isn't amazing; especially after saves), or if they do roll well it could be as high as ~17 damage (which is definitely amazing).  Unfortunately, that means it can be kind of hard to predict how much weight they can lift and as such it makes target selection a little risky.

If you want to charge into say a unit of 5 retributors in cover, you'll need to cause about 12 wounds after saves to avoid getting shredded from the return attacks. On average rolls, 6 skyfires will do ~12 wounds after saves. But if you roll low for the disk, then they'll do about 8. Enough to remove 2 retributors, but then you still have the return attacks from double starsoul maces plus 1 retributor. Not good. 

On the other hand, say you brought Enlightened. A unit of 6 will average about 18 wounds after saves. Even if you roll low for your disk attacks, the unit will still average ~14 wounds. That means no matter the disk roll, they are very likely to remove that unit.

The deciding factor here is the spears will do as much damage as the disk (with average rolls) while Skyfires are almost entirely dependent on the disks for their hitting power. That means if you really need to take out something stubborn that has around 12-15 wounds enlightened are the better choice and will be more consistent in their hitting power. At the moment people are stacking skyfires at max unit strength (9) to make the randomness of the disk attacks less of an issue. 9 Skyfires will do about 25 wounds on average even if you only get 1 attack for the disks. That makes them reliable enough in big groups to tackle larger models and mitigates some of the randomness, but with a fairly heavy commitment. If something goes wrong and you lose a 480 pt unit, it's going to sting... 

Enlightened in groups of 9 however will put out ~45 even if they roll a 1 for disk attacks. if they roll a 2? ~58 wounds. A 3? 70 wounds. That means (to me) that smaller groups of 3 Enlightened are enough to handle most high/mid-range units without trouble, even most monsters. For example, even with only 1 attack from their disks, 3 enlightened should be able to take out anything with 10 wounds and a 4+ save (which is 90% of monsters in the game). 6 can take out just about any single unit in the game (period), and 9 can still delete 2-3 units in a midfield brawl. In fact Enlightened would work really well in 2 groups of 3 working in tandem. Skyfires not so much: your opponent will likely activate whatever unit is being attacked in order to deny the second group of 3 skyfires their rerolls. 

The trade off of Enlightened and skyfires (other than ranged damage) is it's little more tricky to manipulate the battle so Enlightened can make the most of their special rules. But it's not that hard, and it pays dividends to boot. I sort of feel stacking skyfires to max size to use in CC is a little like trying to open a can with a knife instead of a can opener. Sure, it works, but not as well as a tool designed for opening cans. 

[StokieRich]

On 2017-6-1 at 7:01 PM, Mirage8112 said:

lol I don't think we disagree all that much on how to use them. You just seem to think that there are units in the codex that are better. I don't disagree with that. Skyfires are better than acolytes for ranged damage output. Pink horrors are better in a daemon-focused list. Tzaangors are better if you want a hard hitting CC unit. My point (which you seem to miss over and over) is that in an Arcanite list, acolytes perform a specific role very well, and are the most useful and cost efficient choice for that particular strategy. Throw them int combat unaided; yes they suck. But if you do that; you're doing it wrong. 
 

It's not that I don't think you're using them right (you haven't really elaborated on your specific strategies for play. Only that you win a lot.) It's that I don't think your aware of there value because they die often and don't cause enough damage for you to be happy with them. In my opinion that fact tat they unlock specific battalion benefits makes them valuable and worth taking in a list, and if you have to take them to make other units stronger, than you might as well get the most use out of them. The detailed strategy (and list) I posted above works, and I know because I've used if across various armies. I don't need to have played with this specific combination of units, because I know it works from experience. Acolytes have nearly identical stats and abilities to glade guard and this technique works bonkers well with them (even without arcane bodkins). I've even made something similar work with Tree-Revenants (albeit with some differences) who cost more per model, don't have a ranged attack and have no ward save. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that acolytes can fill the same role in that particular strategy. 

 

Well, congratulations on your success and experience! I'm actually surprised that somebody as well versed as you in the finer points of wargaming doesn't understand that every tool has a job that it's suited best for. Maybe it comes down to personal preference (or hubris), or perhaps you just like units to cause lots and lots of damage. I dunno. But I would hesitate discouraging other players from using units that can be effective under the right circumstances just because they don't play the way you prefer. I don't like the way beastclaw raiders play. Doesn't mean I don't think their not worth playing as an army or that I would discourage a player from picking them up. 
 

It's funny, you keep saying that. Yet you keep responding. It sounds a little like when somebody says "I don't want to gossip, but I heard..." I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I'm also happy to keep debating the finer points of list construction. After all, what are these "let's chat" threads for if not to pick the army apart in detail?  

 

I'll stop responding then. Thanks for your input.

[Killax]

Im suprised to see such debate here. To me the long short of it is that both are true.

AoS is a game where every unit has a purpose and sometimes there purposes overlap so much that one unit comes out as better (Bloodcrusher vs Skullcrusher). However I dont think thats the point where we dissagree upon.

The simple fact is that:

1. Missle Attacks in aos are amazing.

2. Hero hunting is rewarding because it eliminates synergies and engines.

3. Skyfires do this really well, making them equiped well for any meta. They are foolproof once you start hunting oppossing key pieces, often Heroes.

Now with that in mind you dont have to play them. It depends on your mindset and aim. Using them will lead to great result because they are likely undercosted.

[ssharkus]

Hi guys. Yesterday i had a 5k Chaos vs 5k Death open play game. I had Host Duplitious with 9 flamers, 3 LoC and some plaguebearers and bloodletters for summons, my fellow Nurgle friend had blightguard with warshrine and those 3 big monster riders from End Times. Against us we had Flesh Eaters around 2.5k and the Neferata`s Blood Court.  We played Escalation.

So basically my Nurgle friend was supposed to hold the center, but was too slow to move and his Blightkings were charged by neferata+morghasts, coven throne and Mournghoul. Together they were basically dropping -3 to hit bubble (Neferatas and Mournghoul abilities and Cursed book from Coven throne). With all my shooting and magic bombs i barely managed to kill Coven Throne, FeC Terrorgheist , few morghasts and almost downed zombie dragon. Blightguard did absolutely nothing, being tarpitted in CC with those nasty monsters, and i couldn`t kill Mournghoul or Morghasts with spells because of all those damn ward saves. 

What would be the suitable strategy for such list? Afaik neferata Blood Court couldnt be used in matched play, and all this stuff costs almost 2k, but i totally see him using it again in our local big open play games in the future)

I have 9 skyfires that im planning to paint soon, for now i see it as the only option. I tried holding morghasts and mornghoul with horrors, but they chewed through them pretty easily even with scintillating simulacra.  I saw a wonderful strategy with Changeling above, with swapping him with the line of pinks to make a roadbump, but these guys all can fly over them.

Thx in advance.

[Arkiham]

2 hours ago, ssharkus said:

Hi guys. Yesterday i had a 5k Chaos vs 5k Death open play game. I had Host Duplitious with 9 flamers, 3 LoC and some plaguebearers and bloodletters for summons, my fellow Nurgle friend had blightguard with warshrine and those 3 big monster riders from End Times. Against us we had Flesh Eaters around 2.5k and the Neferata`s Blood Court.  We played Escalation.

So basically my Nurgle friend was supposed to hold the center, but was too slow to move and his Blightkings were charged by neferata+morghasts, coven throne and Mournghoul. Together they were basically dropping -3 to hit bubble (Neferatas and Mournghoul abilities and Cursed book from Coven throne). With all my shooting and magic bombs i barely managed to kill Coven Throne, FeC Terrorgheist , few morghasts and almost downed zombie dragon. Blightguard did absolutely nothing, being tarpitted in CC with those nasty monsters, and i couldn`t kill Mournghoul or Morghasts with spells because of all those damn ward saves. 

What would be the suitable strategy for such list? Afaik neferata Blood Court couldnt be used in matched play, and all this stuff costs almost 2k, but i totally see him using it again in our local big open play games in the future)

I have 9 skyfires that im planning to paint soon, for now i see it as the only option. I tried holding morghasts and mornghoul with horrors, but they chewed through them pretty easily even with scintillating simulacra.  I saw a wonderful strategy with Changeling above, with swapping him with the line of pinks to make a roadbump, but these guys all can fly over them.

Thx in advance.

skyfires is pretty much right, kill the morghuls are range, nurgle might be best up against the FEC as they are typically low armour but mass bodies. that or spread nurgle out to hold spots over all the map, 

if i see a obvious tarpit i wont pour resources into it, why would you? with pockets of hardy nurgle units to shore up your squishier tzeentch ones you can allow the nurgle player to be beat upon and hopefully live and you can start to pump out damage with spells and ranged attacks.

 

your the glass cannon, hes the meat shield

[RoloMcFury]

I took Tzeentch to a 30-man two-list format this past weekend and was once again blown away by how strong the army is. My two lists were Duplicitous Host and Changehost + 9 Skyfires. The damage output is great, but the tactical flexibility to swap units around in the Changehost never ceases to amaze me. I ended up taking top score in Chaos (second overall, I believe) bested by a very skilled Hallowed Knights player (5+ immunity to all spells, GRR!). In all honestly, at least one game I lost was due to sheer carelessness- I forgot you can't have even one enemy model near your objective in Gifts from the Heavens, then failed to deal 9 wounds to Durthu (with my entire army blasting him...). As such, I feel some build of Tzeentch is probably the strongest army in the game at the moment. I'm hoping the Changehost elements manage to avoid a points increase in the GH2, since it's fairly well established that Skyfires will get hit hard.

Here are a few thoughts/tricks:

The Changehost + Skyfire list is crazy strong in escalation. The one unit that gets stuck far back (LoC) can immediately swap with one of your battleline units to target your opponent's battleline if they deployed on the line (with the distance bump due to the LoC's much larger base size.

I'm sure this is well-established, but using your fate dice to land crazy long charges can make the Skyfires even more terrifying. They're even better in melee, if you can get them all in.

As always, using your Pink Horrors to block movement just feels dirty. With the Blues and Brimstones, you're buying potentially 3 turns of stalling your opponent. Chaff in this game is strong and there's no chaff stronger than Horrors. This is combined with using fate dice 1's to generate more Pink Horrors during battleshock, if they survive combat.

One extremely questionable trick you can pull off is having one of your non-monster wizards (Herald, ideally) summon the Balewind Vortex, cast his spells 36" out, then swap with the Lord of Change to get him up there. I got this idea from one of the Twitch streams last weekend from WarhammerFest and it checks out RaW, but god is it dirty.

[Arkiham]

@Mirage8112

In your explanations of skyfires and enlightened, 

You're saying that enlightened do more damage on the return, does that take into account lost models an such ? 

They'll crush a unit I've garnered but don't they also have a large potential of being crushed by these big/deadly units you throw them into?

Would it be better to say charge 6 skyfires in and 6 enlightened, obviously this is obviously more models but it sounds like a very potent killing squad, maybe more so than 2 units of the same warscroll? 

Logic would say the enlightened will be targeted by the opposing activation but then you protect them with mystic shield etc to mitigate the damage.