Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Olincay]

18 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I think that adding 10 blue horrors for splitting like Tasman said would work well. Personally, I would up the Tzaangor unit to 30  (only costs another 90 points), then replace the Ogroid for a Herald on foot - putting you at 1990. You keep all your casting, and gives you two big block threats in the Tzaangors and Skyfires. 

Cheers for the advice! I had a feeling Mr Ogroid would be the first thing to go, i've managed to give him a decent paint job so i feel guilty cutting him out haha. 

 

 

[Freejack02]

3 hours ago, SPlatte said:

Greetings,

this my first post here. I'm going to get the Changecult Battleforce for Christmas + Lord of Change and have no idea how to equip the Units. All the armylists here only state what Units are in it but not the weapon loadout of them.

1. What should I give the LoC? Baleful Sword or Rod of Sorcery?
2. I want to build the Tzaangors as two 10 man Units, each with Brayhorn and Icon Bearer but do I max out the Tzaangor Mutants and double-handed Savage Blades? Do I give them Paired Blades or Savage Blade+Shield?
3. The Kairic Acolytes will be in two 10 man Units aswell. Again the option of Arcanite Shield+Cursed Blade or Paired Cursed Blades? Maxing out the Cursed Glaives? Vulcharc and Scroll of Dark Arts are set.

That should be all.. The Tzaangor Shaman has no options and i want to build 3 Skyfires and 3 Enlightened.

Thanks in advance!

1. Rod is likely what you will want in 90% of games, you really need to build specifically to use the sword well. That being said, the kit comes with two different arm/wrist combos (one outstretched and one held close to the chest), so I built my rod on one and the sword on another to swap them around as needed. Use either a small dab of super glue, magnets, or just a blue-tack to hold them in place. 

2. Always max out your Twistbray and Mutants. I also built some great weapons, as they are mathematically superior on normal tzaangors above 9 models (both deal 1 average damage, but great weapons have rend -1) - but that cuts into your shield bearers. I like having some shields in the back to allocate wounds to (giving the 6+ ignore), the number probably depends on you. 

3. I do not run Acolytes, so I really don't have much play input on them. 

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Hello. I am a newbye starting out with Tzeench. I want to play with demons but i have need some rules clarifications before i start out phasing reality and breaking my opponent's minds  . It's about reinforcement points. Are there any situation with our demons where we don't pay reinforcements from them ? 

I get that we must pay reinforcement points for:

- Dividiving horrors.

- Summoning daemons.

But do we have to pay for:

- Fold reality ?

- Icon bearers ?

 

[Nico]

3 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Hello. I am a newbye starting out with Tzeench. I want to play with demons but i have need some rules clarifications before i start out phasing reality and breaking my opponent's minds  . It's about reinforcement points. Are there any situation with our demons where we don't pay reinforcements from them ? 

I get that we must pay reinforcement points for:

- Dividiving horrors. When creating new units - not when topping up existing units up to 10 models (or to their original size of higher than 10).

- Summoning daemons.

But do we have to pay for:

- Fold reality ? No.

- Icon bearers ? No.

 

 

[stillness]

I just got the Battleforce, and am pretty excited to get started with Tzeentch! I may or may not actually PLAY the game in the near future, but assuming that I will do so, what's a good way to build toward 2000pts?

Some models I like (as models) and want to get:

-Curseling

-Lord of Change

-Kairos

-Ogroid Thaumaturge

-Screamers

-Pink & Blue Horrors

-Changeling

-I already have two Gaunt Summoners, one the Silver Tower version and one the regular AOS version, just because I love that model so much.

Models I dislike but may eventually pick up if they are absolutely necessary for a Tzeentch army:

-Flamers

-Burning Chariot

[Olincay]

3 hours ago, stillness said:

I just got the Battleforce, and am pretty excited to get started with Tzeentch! I may or may not actually PLAY the game in the near future, but assuming that I will do so, what's a good way to build toward 2000pts?

Some models I like (as models) and want to get:

-Curseling

-Lord of Change

-Kairos

-Ogroid Thaumaturge

-Screamers

-Pink & Blue Horrors

-Changeling

-I already have two Gaunt Summoners, one the Silver Tower version and one the regular AOS version, just because I love that model so much.

Models I dislike but may eventually pick up if they are absolutely necessary for a Tzeentch army:

-Flamers

-Burning Chariot

Lord of change and pinks are a must add in my opinion, changeling and kairos are also pretty cool but you can go without them if need be. 

[Nico]

You really have to have a plan to justify taking Kairos at his cost. Otherwise he is not going to perform at a level that merits the cost (as he cannot teleport via Changehost or (generally speaking) be summoned).

It’s generally worth planning the list out entirely in advance.

If tournament success is your goal then a scattering of Arcanites and Daemons is likely to underperform a pure Changehost, Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars plus Kairos/Skyfires List. Stay away from the Arcanite Battalions except maybe the Cabal.

[AverageBoss]

On 12/10/2017 at 8:31 AM, SPlatte said:

Greetings,

this my first post here. I'm going to get the Changecult Battleforce for Christmas + Lord of Change and have no idea how to equip the Units. All the armylists here only state what Units are in it but not the weapon loadout of them.

1. What should I give the LoC? Baleful Sword or Rod of Sorcery?
2. I want to build the Tzaangors as two 10 man Units, each with Brayhorn and Icon Bearer but do I max out the Tzaangor Mutants and double-handed Savage Blades? Do I give them Paired Blades or Savage Blade+Shield?
3. The Kairic Acolytes will be in two 10 man Units aswell. Again the option of Arcanite Shield+Cursed Blade or Paired Cursed Blades? Maxing out the Cursed Glaives? Vulcharc and Scroll of Dark Arts are set.

That should be all.. The Tzaangor Shaman has no options and i want to build 3 Skyfires and 3 Enlightened.

Thanks in advance!

 

On 12/1/2017 at 3:03 PM, AverageBoss said:

According to the FAQ:

Q: How do models like horn blowers and standard bearers work? Do they lose the weapons they would otherwise carry, or do you just gain the benefits of the upgrades without penalty? A: You just gain the benefits unless specifically stated otherwise. The model is assumed to still have any weapons it had before it was upgraded, even if the weapons are not shown on the model itself.

It should also be noted that you do not lose the benefits of shields when armed with glaives. As such it is generally considered best to arm the whole unit with shields, and give glaives to your unit champion, scroll caddy, and bird carrier glaives. This ensures you keep both your units most important upgrades, and most damaging weapons around for the longest time possible. The only time such a decision would backfire would be against a Stardrake or Giant, since they can pick out individual models.

For the Tzaangors, the best configuration for every 10 men is generally considered:
1x Banner + great weapon
1x Horn + great weapon
1x champion + great weapon
1x scrub with great weapon
2x mutant (the split head dudes) with paired weapons
4x scrubs with sword and shield

 

[AverageBoss]

9 hours ago, stillness said:

Models I dislike but may eventually pick up if they are absolutely necessary for a Tzeentch army:

-Flamers

-Burning Chariot

No need to worry about those. They are generally considered pretty abysmal.

[SPlatte]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

 

 

Thanks for the replies AverageBoss and Freejack02.

Ok so the loadout should be as in my attached image?

How come the Kairic Acolytes can use Arcanite Shields even if they are not able to equip them while also having the Cursed Glaive according to their description in the Warscroll? From what FAQ is that exerpt? Didn't find it in the GW page Erratas.

I really hate the Warscroll Descriptions... why can't they be like W40k Codex entries...

[ChaosReigns]

Has anyone had any success running the Cult of the Transient Form? Seems like having a max-sized blob of Tzaangors receiving reinforcement from a variety of sources could be pretty strong. The Arcanite Cabal seems pretty decent too on paper, all things considered.

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

I am starting out with Tzeench and i want to play mainly demons. I want to work towards a changehost in the future but i am making lists to play 1k points games first.   This is what i had come with. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Artefact: Souldraught 
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Reinforcement Points (220)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 44
 

The idea is to have enough points for balewind and 1 unit of pink horrors (or a herald if i want to double cast a "d6 mortal wounds").  The balewind is not to use it all the time, but otherwise go with splitting the pink horrors if needed. I feel the Lord of Change is very expensive... Should i scale down some reinforcement points for a extra unit of blood horrors ?  Any advice is appreciated (or ideas for lists).

[Tasman]

On 12/14/2017 at 8:12 AM, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

I am starting out with Tzeench and i want to play mainly demons. I want to work towards a changehost in the future but i am making lists to play 1k points games first.   This is what i had come with. 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (120)
- Artefact: Souldraught 
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Reinforcement Points (220)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 44
 

The idea is to have enough points for balewind and 1 unit of pink horrors (or a herald if i want to double cast a "d6 mortal wounds").  The balewind is not to use it all the time, but otherwise go with splitting the pink horrors if needed. I feel the Lord of Change is very expensive... Should i scale down some reinforcement points for a extra unit of blood horrors ?  Any advice is appreciated (or ideas for lists).

Ok, take it from me. You will not make  any friends when you inevitably put that Gaunt Summoner up on that vortex. Hint: take the summoner with the familiars. +3 to casting if within 18" of LoC. I know that they are very tempting, but I might just drop the scribes for the herald. I like his spell better. The GS should, IMO, have the spell Glimpse the future, and I'd give firestorm to the horrors and bolt to the LoC.

The LoC is essential at all levels of play IMO. He's simply too good to not use, ever. Don't leave home without it.

220 points for summoning is about right, but if you do take the vortex, I'd say wait and see what else you may need to do with the remaining points as the game progresses i.e. if you should split pinks with blues, or simply summon more pinks etc.

Overall, Tzeentch demons are fun to play and are truly hard to beat, but must be played with finesse.

[Nico]

Quote

 I know that they are very tempting, but I might just drop the scribes for the herald. I

I’m not sure this is wise - the Blue Scribes are vital. Herald should be summoned in as a sniper.

 

[Countmoore]

12 hours ago, Nico said:

I’m not sure this is wise - the Blue Scribes are vital. Herald should be summoned in as a sniper.

 

Agree with you here. After the LoC the blue scribes are the next unit to go in the list. As well as adding more stability in casting they can learn spells cast near them which adds insurance against losing an important spell. 

[Nico]

Thanks Tony. 

I’ve only seen two DoT lists that rightly omitted the Blue Scrubs - term of affection - one was old points 21 Skyfires) and the other one is a list that I’m working on. 

They also move 16” (potentially after learning Infernal Gateway). The emergency cast 2+ can also be very handy late in the game. 

[Tasman]

17 hours ago, Nico said:

I’m not sure this is wise - the Blue Scribes are vital. Herald should be summoned in as a sniper.

 

I stand corrected. You  bring a valid point here. 

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Thx for the comments. I think i will leave at it is. A few more questions:

- The 1d6/1d3 wounds etc, that you inflict through spells cannot be changed by destiny dice since they are not damage rolls, correct ?

- Balewind vortex doesn't double  the 18" from Infernal's flame, correct ?

[Tasman]

28 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Thx for the comments. I think i will leave at it is. A few more questions:

- The 1d6/1d3 wounds etc, that you inflict through spells cannot be changed by destiny dice since they are not damage rolls, correct ?

- Balewind vortex doesn't double  the 18" from Infernal's flame, correct ?

First is correct.

Second is not.

[Nico]

Balewind doubles any range in any spell whether point to point or an area of effect spell. 

Also worth noting the FAQ that provides for multiplication before addition. Particularly relevant to Kroak and Astrolith.

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

I will explain how i came to that conclussion. I am probably wrong, but here it goes. My problem with balewind vortex comes with what is defined as "range". For example, magic bolt You roll to cast, then dispel, and if it passed you choose a target at 18" (range) and then resolve (the 1d3 wounds).

 Hellfire, you cast, and if it goes through you choose a unit at unlimited range (this is what my brain defines as spell's range), then resolve the spell which states models within 18" of the caster.

But from your answers i get that range is anything that is measured in inches in the spell. So thanks for the answers

[Nico]

So an artefact doesn’t buff your hero’s own mount - this was a deliberate nerf to the likes of Battlebrew.

However, what about an artefact from one hero affecting another hero and its mount? Literally the amended wording of the rule is arguably only referring to “the hero” as the hero with the artefact.

So does Aura of Mutability - a reroll Wounds of 1 aura affect the mounts of Daemon heroes that are near the hero with the artefact (like a Tzaangor Shaman)?

If it doesn’t then a Gaunt Summoner with the artefact Aura would be affecting the Skyfires’ disks but not that of the nearby Tzaangor Shaman. This would be weird.

From a purposive perspective nerfing such auras (and making them different from other auras like spells or command abilities - noting the FAQ)  was not the problem the rules change in the GHB 2017 was addressing - but it could still be collateral damage.

Thoughts anyone?

@Countmoore

It’s not a huge point either way, but would influence my artefact selection.

 

[Countmoore]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

However, what about an artefact from one hero affecting another hero and its mount? Literally the amended wording of the rule is arguably only referring to “the hero” as the hero with the artefact.

So does Aura of Mutability - a reroll Wounds of 1 aura affect the mounts of Daemon heroes that are near the hero with the artefact (like a Tzaangor Shaman)?

My understanding is more to do with the wording of ‘units’ which does effect mounts.  So in the example above the whole disk model wound be affected as it states unit. 

Another example is arcane transformation which effects the ‘model’ therefore the mount could be given the extra attack if that’s what you chose. 

 

 

 

[Nico]

I can see what you’re saying there. Thanks!

Spells aren’t subject to the rule about Mounts rule thankfully as a further point.

[Malakithe]

Anyone have a good idea for a mortal/tzaangor 2k list?