Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Mirage8112]

27 minutes ago, Nico said:

Sounds like a challenge. Black Ark Corsairs are just an inferior version of Judicators or Waywatchers or Glade Guard in every respect (and are not pointed cheaply enough to warrant inclusion). The Battalion they unlock is also junk.

Similarly High Elf Spearmen are a worse version of Eternal Guard.

Chaos Ogres or Chaos Trolls or Centigors (shudder) or the Great Taurus also spring to mind as being junk.

While I stand by my original comment, I will note an addendum: There are no bad units in the game, only bad combinations of units. 

Most of the Compendium units are clearly a tier below anything that has gotten a new batteltome. I'm certainly not as famailiar with the bulk of the compendium models as I am with the current AoS "armies", but it seems that units like high elf spearmen aren't particularly good because their synergy options are greatly limited thanks to the faction split. That is to say, they aren't great because there isn't any way to make them better. That release of a new batteltome is unfortunately the biggest indication of power level. It is my suspicion that power level of elven (eleven?) units will look very different once the Aelf-centric battletome is released, so most of the units you mentioned I consider to be more "beta" than anything else. 

That being said, units like chaos trolls and chaos ogres are plenty viable; with the right synergy. Chaos Ogres are 120 pts for 3 and roughly comparable in stats to treekin (which we've already established as an overlooked unit that can bring plenty to the table in a balanced Sylvaneth list) Not to mention that they have some fairly decent self healing if they go toe-to toe with a unit of single wound models. Chaos trolls are pretty nasty if you can stack +hit on them (their range attack is a cheap source of -2 rend + d3 damage, and with 3 base attacks -1 rend and 2 damage getting extra hits on 6's) and defensively with celestial shield fighting in cover they are hella survivable; 4 wounds, 3+ save, regenerating wounds on a 2+ for 180 pts. I'd say totally worth it. 

So, again, I'll reiterate: There are no bad units in the game, only bad combinations of units.

 

58 minutes ago, Nico said:

The absurd melee damage from a unit of 9 is the kicker and the thing which isn't obvious on paper.

But that's exactly what I mean. So much of deciding to take a unit is done with pen-and-paper mathhammer rather than actual practical game experience. Units develop reputations of being "spam mandatory" leading people to assume that those combinations are mandatory if you want to win games. But that's not necessarily true. At release, skyfires were a "take it or leave it unit" until somebody figured out what they could do and used them in a way that takes advantage of their design. They didn't get better, they didn't receive a buff or a points reduction. Somebody just put two and two together and then everybody went "Oh... Right then."

I think the same goes for units like Kairic Acolytes. I don't think their worth is totally obvious on paper. But again, with the right combination of support, synergy and tactics, I'm pretty confident they are as viable as anything else in the book. 


 

[StokieRich]

I love the Acolytes, the models are fantastic and I've ran a unit in every game I've played so far with Tzeentch (currently 17W 0D 0L) however I am pretty convinced they're terrible, there is not really anything people are missing from what I can see.

You can run them in the Wychfire Coven, but it probably needs to be units of 20 as the formation is 40pts, then you're probably looking at 920 points before you even start adding anything else. (2 x 20 Acolytes plus the formation is 600pts, then 6 Enlightened)

For 600pts you can do so much more with any other unit in the battletome, the Wychfire Coven is something that looks like it might be decent on paper, and maybe it would be if the Acolytes were any better, but I'm really not convinced it's worth anything.

At the moment I'm only stacking Acolytes to deliberately nerf myself as my local club has strong feelings about the power level of Tzeentch! (Albeit most of my games have been at 1.2k)

(For the record my 1.2k is Gaunt Summoner, 2 x Shaman, 10 Acolytes, [Tzaangor Coven], 20 Tzaangor, 3 Enlightened, 3 Skyfire)

I won 2 of my games at a 1.2k tournament at the weekend without losing a model (other than sacrificing my own for Arcane Sacrifice) so it feels fair to try and tone it down further!

[Nico]

Quote

At the moment I'm only stacking Acolytes to deliberately nerf myself as my local club has strong feelings about the power level of Tzeentch! (Albeit most of my games have been at 1.2k)

Tzeentch are really strong at lower points games as there are fewer important rolls and so Destiny Dice are amplified. DD would be useless in a 5,000 point game by contrast - unlike Death Ward saves or Destruction Move for example.

[Tasman]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Tzeentch are really strong at lower points games as there are fewer important rolls and so Destiny Dice are amplified. DD would be useless in a 5,000 point game by contrast - unlike Death Ward saves or Destruction Move for example.

Truth. In the games I've played thus far with DoT, I've had my most difficult times v death. The regen and overall resilience of the army was the deciding factor. I simply couldn't dislodge his big units from the objectives.

However, I must add that I've only played around a half dozen games with the battletome so far, and the last few games have all been wins as I've started to understand the dynamics of the different units better.

[Mirage8112]

 

12 hours ago, StokieRich said:

You can run them in the Wychfire Coven, but it probably needs to be units of 20 as the formation is 40pts, then you're probably looking at 920 points before you even start adding anything else. (2 x 20 Acolytes plus the formation is 600pts, then 6 Enlightened). For 600pts you can do so much more with any other unit in the battletome, the Wychfire Coven is something that looks like it might be decent on paper, and maybe it would be if the Acolytes were any better, but I'm really not convinced it's worth anything.

 

This is something else I don't understand, the constant "waste of points" argument. It doesn't matter what things cost as long as you can win with it. I have a similar record at my club to you (never lost a game of AoS there to date) and I rarely play the lists that are regarded to be "the best." I say the best in quotations, because they only have that reputation because people are looking for the mythical "best list"; that doesn't exist; Lists don't win games, strategy and generalship wins games. 

Units function so differently in AoS compared to the previous iterations of WHFB because unit power is so dependent on relationships between units. Bloodletters by themselves? Meh. Stacking a bunch of extra attacks and +hit with a Sayl catapult, they go from "meh" to "JESUS CHRIST THEY'VE KILLED ALL OF THE THINGS".

Like I said above, Enlightened are handicapped by "glimpse the past" because you need to have an enemy attack first to make use of it, and they are squishy as all get out. But as I said above, put them with a Pyroflame coven bodyguard unit and they shred everything. Furthermore, to try and create a similar set up with any of our other unit choices, the tactic doesn't work. There's simply no reason to engage the bunker. Pink horrors don't put out enough shots and tzaangors have no ranged attack to speak of (likewise for marauders, Chaos warriors, or any other melee-centric unit). We don't even really have any other choice in the broader "Chaos spectrum" to utilize this tactic; all the slaves to darkness units can't shoot and are slow, and the demon choices aren't really suited for this type of job. (You could use flamers but its cost prohibitive to get a big enough unit to surround the disk riders, and fielding 18 flamers might just make @Nico have a stroke. lol.) But acolytes+ enlightened really look like a match made in heaven. 

So if this set up starts at 900pts what would the next step look like? What units would you add to build those relationships? How about this:

Allegiance: Chaos
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (140)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (320)
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (480)
The Pyrofane Cult (80)
Witchfyre Coven (60)

Total: 1880/2000

Lots of shooting that can't be ignored, Bunker to babysit objectives that positively dares anything to charge it (and if they don't charge it can just sit back and blast them, or they can get cheeky and charge as well). 9 Skyfyres for aggressive hunting and ranged support. and a third unit of acolytes to make battleline and act as a shooting phase "primer". If the bunker loses acolytes, who cares? There's 2x20 of them and they're just there as a buffer/bait anyway. Plus you have another 120 pts to play around with or to use for summoning in a pinch. Everything in this list works well with everything else. Plus, its a single drop. You can force the opponent to go first, move into shooting range and then tear him to pieces and even try for the double turn. You couldn't do that with pink horrors since they don't have the proper keywords for the meta battalion. 

I would play the %@#$ out of this list (that is to say if I didn't mind painting 50 acolytes). 




 

[Thomas Lyons]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So if this set up starts at 900pts what would the next step look like? What units would you add to build those relationships? How about this:

Allegiance: Chaos
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (140)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (320)
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (480)
The Pyrofane Cult (80)
Witchfyre Coven (60)

Total: 1880/2000

You're missing the required Arcane Cabal, which requires at least one more caster (120) and the battalion cost (50).  This isn't the end of the world, but this means that you'll need to drop the third Kairic Acolyte unit for another battleline and you only have 90 points to spend, which means you'll likely be picking up a Marauder unit and being a 2 drop army.

[Mirage8112]

20 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

You're missing the required Arcane Cabal, which requires at least one more caster (120) and the battalion cost (50).  This isn't the end of the world, but this means that you'll need to drop the third Kairic Acolyte unit for another battleline and you only have 90 points to spend, which means you'll likely be picking up a Marauder unit and being a 2 drop army.

I wrote that list on the fly, and thought it looked a little off. Thanks for catching that! 

My thought is to add a magister and run him as the leader of the cabal (a set -up I'm currently using with my DoT army). My thought as to make him a destiny dice machine. Using those mid level dice for glimpse the future means he could feasibly use 2 dice to auto-cast, which he then get's back on a 4+, plus the extra dice from the spell. And if you have any extra 4's, he can choose two which will allow him to cast a second spell, plus possibly a third from depending on where the other two wizards from the cabal are. This might be a good a set-up to take the arch sorcerer command trait, as he's one of the best models primed to use the extra spell with the possibility of 3 spells per turn. 

[HMB]

@Mirage8112

thanks for your support at my question. i wanna try your solutions in some way. Last evening i had a match with my fatesworn warband and kayric did well with ranged attack at -1 rend, only skarbrand killed them all at last (that guy is impressive).

this was the roster:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Gaunt Summoner (100)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Cursed Ichor 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Slambo (80)

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 12x Pair of Savage Blade
- 4x Savage Greatblade
- 4x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
5 x Chaos Knights (200)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Slaves to Darkness Battleline
3 x Dragon Ogors (160)
- Draconic Crushers
- Dragon Ogor Battleline

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)
1 x Chaos Chariots (80)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Total: 2000/2000
 

[Tasman]

Well, the dragon ogres don't work with the Tzeentch Allegiance, so no destiny dice.... and I'm not sure about Slambo. He IS StD, but nowhere on his scroll does it say that he can take a mark.

[HMB]

sorry i copied the WRONG (and the old, useless, and weak) roster.

 

This is the right one:

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount (140)
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield 
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Lord Of Chaos (100)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars(120)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Cursed Ichor 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (200)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Slaves to Darkness Battleline
20 x Chaos Warriors (360)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (100)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Slaves to Darkness Battleline
20 x Kairic Acolytes (280)

Units
1 x Chaos Spawn (60)
1 x Chaos Spawn (60)

Battalions
Fatesworn Warband (120)

Total: 2000/2000
 

[Tasman]

Why the Lord of Chaos? I would rather bring another gaunt summoner. Or a bale wind vortex....

[HMB]

'cause i need 9 Tzeentch mortal unit (no replace with vortex) and 'cause i don't like duplicate heroes, and in addition i own only one Gaunt Summoner

[Nico]

Better to summon the LoC in my view!

[Soulsmith]

In fairness, the Lord-Aquilor makes for an excellent Chaos Lord of Tzeentch. I'd take one just for that  

[Mirage8112]

On 5/25/2017 at 2:03 AM, Nico said:

Tzeentch are really strong at lower points games as there are fewer important rolls and so Destiny Dice are amplified. DD would be useless in a 5,000 point game by contrast - unlike Death Ward saves or Destruction Move for example.

That's only partially true. 

The destiny dice mechanic looks to be very competitive in small games, because its not entirely necessary to devote a portion of your list to generating lost destinty dice. And really, the best way to generate destiny dice if through the arcanite section of the battletome; daemon-centric lists are severely limited in their ability to generate dice (and to be truthful, with a Loc on the board the fixing dice rolls for magic is less necessary, so your dice last a bit longer).

It's my thought that for every 1500 pts of mortal you bring, it would be wise to bring 1 Arcanite cabal with 3-4 casters. Between the Master of the Cult rule (and possibly putting Aspect of Tzneetch on one of the Shaman) You can probably use dice with impunity. My own (limited) tests so far show that the Arcanite cabal's Master can reliably use 4-6 destiny dice per turn and can still generate 3-4 dice at the same time.

That might be kind of hilarious with 2 arcane cabal's zipping up the board and unloading spell after spell without worrying about too much about losing dice. 

*edit 

It also looks as if aspect of Tzneetch stacks (did we go over this?) have three casters on the board gives you roughly a 30% chance to replace every dice you use. not to mention the possibility of rolling 2 6's and getting two dice for every one you use. 

[HMB]

a quick question: what's the best setup for the LoC, the Rod of Sorcery intrigue me, but the sword is really more beatiful on the model.

[Killax]

14 minutes ago, HMB said:

a quick question: what's the best setup for the LoC, the Rod of Sorcery intrigue me, but the sword is really more beatiful on the model.

I think the best set up is the one you like the most visually. To me there isn't too much of a difference between the choices but what is certain is that you'll ideally use the LoC late in combat, stoking opponents with Spells and forcing them to hassle with chaff before being able to reach you  

[Tasman]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

I think the best set up is the one you like the most visually. To me there isn't too much of a difference between the choices but what is certain is that you'll ideally use the LoC late in combat, stoking opponents with Spells and forcing them to hassle with chaff before being able to reach you  

I do like the extra shooting that the rod gives me. Again, I should have magnetized this.... But I'm going to get another one anyway, just for Host Dup.

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Tasman said:

I do like the extra shooting that the rod gives me. Again, I should have magnetized this.... But I'm going to get another one anyway, just for Host Dup.

Coolest choice anyway! Because th weapons are all functional it also matters on your army. Same applies to Bloodthirsters for example. There isnt really one best, sometimes you want more ranged attacks sometimes more melee. It depends on your build really

[Tasman]

^^Truth

[Killax]

As a sidenote, are there some pages in this massive topic who reflect on the Slaves to Darkness models allready? I really feel that the attrition designs of Slaves to Darkness can mix INCREDIBLY well with DoT. 

I know many arn't huge fans of all the Mortals who come in the DoT book. In my opinion there still is a ton of depth to be found in Slaves to Darkness simply because all they are looking for is buffs, buffs and synergies is what DoT applies like no other!

By comparison BoK doesn't do much for defenses or tactical depth, as a result not too many Slaves to Darkness choices are strictly better or different as the Bloodbound choices. I see that this doesn't apply for DoT at all...

Cheers and thanks for your insight in advance!

[Tasman]

^ Do you mean in addition to the aforementioned Fatesworn battalion? Because that's obviously the most significant for StD. The Sayl launchpad for 3 gorebeast chariots along with the buff from the Lord on mount is awesome, if used on the right target. As well as the other obvious choices, marauders really come to play for Tzeentch. Their 6" move helps with them being able to keep up, andI've never shied away from sacrificing them to damned terrain so Arcane sacrifice looks like a sure bet for the zealous wannabes. StD don't appear to fit in well with DoT units so well, as far as i can see. The points necessary for the good battalions would seem to prohibit their use. That being said, they would work fine along side some of the other smaller battalion choices. It's food for thought. I've really been playing quite a few games with the new book and have been winning consistently after losing my first three. 

I'm going to have to start researching other ways to synergize StD with arcanites as well as daemons. Up until now, the challenge was in how to properly utilize all the new units.

 

On a side note, StD lend themselves incredibly well to Nurgle builds. Shows their resilience very well there.

[Killax]

I don't only mean Battalions! I mean using a 20 block Chaos Warrior unit with Greatweapons and giving it Mystic Shield and/or Shield of Fate. To me that's a lot of stuff that can only be negated by Mortal wounds and thus really good  

Personally I do agree on the Battalion part but wouldn't worry too much about it either. To me it never seems like Chaos needs more than 2 Battalions, can have 1 quite easily but can also run without it. Especially a Lord of Change as General with a Artefact and Command Trait seems to do just fine on its own, more than fine even. 

I think StD works well for Nurgle also but Tzeentch seems viable aswell. I do think that Skyfires will always be present but thats only truely relevant for competative play, in a setting where both aim to win.

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

I don't only mean Battalions! I mean using a 20 block Chaos Warrior unit with Greatweapons and giving it Mystic Shield and/or Shield of Fate. To me that's a lot of stuff that can only be negated by Mortal wounds and thus really good  

Personally I do agree on the Battalion part but wouldn't worry too much about it either. To me it never seems like Chaos needs more than 2 Battalions, can have 1 quite easily but can also run without it. Especially a Lord of Change as General with a Artefact and Command Trait seems to do just fine on its own, more than fine even. 

I think StD works well for Nurgle also but Tzeentch seems viable aswell. I do think that Skyfires will always be present but thats only truely relevant for competative play, in a setting where both aim to win.

Yeah, I've played a ton of all-StD lists, (I've been collecting Chaos for a long time) and Ilike the fluff of playing mortal units. I always provide myself with a backstory explaining the existence of this particular tribe/force. Always reminding those who really need more explanation that Archaon has commanded this action. Big blocks of marauders (30+), warriors, knights, and the like, coupled with skaven for shooting/magic or warherd

 units for some added punch. Skin wolves. There is a lot of potential here.  I have played a bunch of different mixes like this, with pretty good results. Always seem to be able to compete.

[StokieRich]

On 2017-5-25 at 8:47 PM, Mirage8112 said:

This is something else I don't understand, the constant "waste of points" argument.
 

I get that and agree, units don't need to be "worth their points"  however I don't recall anything in my post that used the term or implied they were a "waste of points" - You've just taken it and ran with your own thing, like a true politician!

Yea I've tried something similar mate with the Acolytes and the Pyrofane Cult, I love the models so I'll try and make them work but I'm under no illusions that they are anywhere near the competitive level of Skyfires etc. 

My version was:

Gaunt Summoner + Familiars (General w. Arcane Sacrifice)

Ogroid

3 x Tzaangor Shaman (All 3 have a Souldraught for 1 turn of 3 spells, using 3 dice, choose 2 highest and re-rolling failed casts)

2 x 20 Acolytes

2 x 10 Acolytes

6 Englightened

6 Skyfires

[Pyrofane Cult]

[Wychfyre Coven] 

[Arcanite Cabal]