Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[RoloMcFury]

2 minutes ago, Nico said:

While the wording could be clearer, the Fortune and Fate ability only allows one extra spell per hero phase in total.

Ah, I had not realized this was a contentious rule as well. It reads as a cut-and-dry "one extra spell" to me, with no mention of a limit. Either way, I just realized you can't summon two Balewinds on turn 1 anyway, because of the Rule of One. Alas!

[hobgoblinclub]

This came up over the weekend:

The Changehost says 'two different pairs of units'. Can your second pair contain one of the units from the original pair? 

Thanks.

[Arkiham]

15 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

This came up over the weekend:

The Changehost says 'two different pairs of units'. Can your second pair contain one of the units from the original pair? 

Thanks.

is technically correct still. so yeah 

[HMB]

Hi guys,

i tried to find some content here in this forum about Kairyc Acolytes, but nothing really clarify me all my doubts. 

Are the Acolytes worth their price in point? I used them 'cause they're magnificent model, more detailed than marauders, but more expensive instead. 

140 points i think are too much for a unit like this. Did u use them, or marauders are better? 

[Leonardas]

For me the only time I can justify their points is when I include them in a fatesworn battalion. 

20 of them, becoming 18 for the additional benefits,starts to look good with -1 rend on both shooting and combat attacks and an extra 6up invulnerable. 

You can argue the same happens to the marauders too so just use them! But maybe the extra benefits can stay around to work now.

Without that extra boost they just look way too expensive from my perspective which is a shame as the models are super cool. 

[Arkiham]

They definitely need a points adjustment. 100-120 max

[Tasman]

9 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

They definitely need a points adjustment. 100-120 max

Agreed.

[Magusnebula]

On 5/11/2017 at 7:59 AM, RoloMcFury said:

You can still deploy the Changeling in your opponent's zone, swap with Horrors (Changehost ability), and get to casting from the safety of your own zone. Just one more trick to keep in mind!

Please clarify, because if I'm reading this right, you are talking about swapping that changeling with horrors? I didn't think that changeling could be swapped due to not being in the battalion.

[RoloMcFury]

43 minutes ago, Magusnebula said:

Please clarify, because if I'm reading this right, you are talking about swapping that changeling with horrors? I didn't think that changeling could be swapped due to not being in the battalion.

Because he has the keywords "Horror" and "Hero" he can serve as one of the "Horror Hero"s included in the Changehost battalion. Similar to how Kairos Fateweaver could be used as a "Lord of Change" in one of the battalions (dunno why you'd want to do that though, hehe).

[Magusnebula]

21 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

Because he has the keywords "Horror" and "Hero" he can serve as one of the "Horror Hero"s included in the Changehost battalion. Similar to how Kairos Fateweaver could be used as a "Lord of Change" in one of the battalions (dunno why you'd want to do that though, hehe).

I went back and looked at it, and can't believed I missed that in the battalions rules! Man that is some awesome stuff right there!

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, RoloMcFury said:

Because he has the keywords "Horror" and "Hero" he can serve as one of the "Horror Hero"s included in the Changehost battalion. Similar to how Kairos Fateweaver could be used as a "Lord of Change" in one of the battalions (dunno why you'd want to do that though, hehe).

Which battalion can Kairos be user as a LoC?

[N_Watson]

10 hours ago, Tasman said:

Which battalion can Kairos be user as a LoC?

It's my understanding that he can't. The "Lord of Change" requirements are not in bold font. 

"Lord of change" means any model with lord of change keyword

'Lord of change" means the warscroll. 

It was thought early after release that with the Host Duplicitous you could take a Lord of change and Kairos in this formation. That's isn't the case. Unfortunate. 

[Tokyo Nift]

3 hours ago, N_Watson said:

It's my understanding that he can't. The "Lord of Change" requirements are not in bold font. 

"Lord of change" means any model with lord of change keyword

'Lord of change" means the warscroll. 

It was thought early after release that with the Host Duplicitous you could take a Lord of change and Kairos in this formation. That's isn't the case. Unfortunate. 

I'd still say this is contested.

There's one FAQ that says Special Characters can be used in formations as long as the special character has they keyword (Kairos does)

There's a second FAQ that says when a formation is referring to a specific unit it won't be in bold, otherwise it will be.

Imo there is no conflict between those two FAQs. But some people think there is.

[N_Watson]

4 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I'd still say this is contested.

There's one FAQ that says Special Characters can be used in formations as long as the special character has they keyword (Kairos does)

There's a second FAQ that says when a formation is referring to a specific unit it won't be in bold, otherwise it will be.

Imo there is no conflict between those two FAQs. But some people think there is.

I think he should be allowed for the record. Just seen a lot of people say he can't. Which is a shame as kairos is bad ass! 

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I'd still say this is contested.

There's one FAQ that says Special Characters can be used in formations as long as the special character has they keyword (Kairos does)

There's a second FAQ that says when a formation is referring to a specific unit it won't be in bold, otherwise it will be.

Imo there is no conflict between those two FAQs. But some people think there is.

No, he's definitely correct. Since the change host's Lord of change is not in bold, it is not a keyword. It's a unit name. Kairos's unit name is "Kairos Fate Weaver" not "Lord of Change" (even though he happens to be one). As such no Kairos in the change host battalion. 

 

[Mirage8112]

On 5/22/2017 at 1:46 AM, HMB said:

Hi guys,

i tried to find some content here in this forum about Kairyc Acolytes, but nothing really clarify me all my doubts. 

Are the Acolytes worth their price in point? I used them 'cause they're magnificent model, more detailed than marauders, but more expensive instead. 

140 points i think are too much for a unit like this. Did u use them, or marauders are better? 

 

On 5/22/2017 at 4:44 AM, Arkiham said:

They definitely need a points adjustment. 100-120 max

 

I think people are underestimating the place Acolytes have in an Arcanite list. Especially when used in conjunction with the pyroflame cult. 2 x 20 Kairic Acolytes will wound on 4's, then 3's for the shooting in the hero phase, and then both will wound on 3's in the actually shooting phase. 

All in all, the damage output for those two unit of acolytes is about 15 wounds from the shooting alone. Which I'll admit isn't exactly spectacular. However, the fact of the matter is that it's enough shooting that your opponent won't be able to ignore it. 18" combined with a 6" move means two units of 20 can effectively threaten large swaths of the battlefield with it and it should be enough to draw your opponents attention. 

The witchfyre Coven also requires a unit of Tzaangor enlightened. This makes me think that this is battalion that is intended to roam around the battlefield throwing fireballs at things and daring the enemy to do something about it. If you put the Elightened on disks and mix them in with your acolytes about 2.5" from your front lines, you basically have a death trap. Putting out 15 wounds per turn, the acolytes can't be ignored and if your opponent takes the bait and tries to charge them, the enlightened will cut them to pieces on the counter activation.

6 enlightened with spears will put out ~40 wounds in a single round of combat (I think this set-up is actually one of the best defensive unit structures we can build). Skyfires are amazing in our turn (since their rerolls activate if they are chosen to attack first) but in our opponents turn, skyfires can be targeted first and then they lose their re-roll mechanic. Enlightened have the opposite problem in that they can't engage alone; their re-roll ability mean the enemy has to swing first and with a  5+ save, they'll hold up about as well as wet tissue paper. An acolyte buffer means, as a group, they can effectively threaten things at range without worrying about being wiped out come the enemy's turn. 

Since the acolytes are usually taken to make battleline or fill the battalion tax. This makes them far more useful than just having a unit of 10 on the battlefield by itself. If your just trying to make minimum battleline requirement, i think there are better choices than acolytes, but if your willing to invest and build a strategy around them, I think they could be a very frustrating nut to crack. Plus, since this is essentially a "meta-battalion" you have a decent shot at controlling the turn order. Granted, since the pyroflame battalion only allows arcanite units you won't be able to include any daemons in your list, you can always plan to summon them to the field round 1 if you need casting support or a tarpit. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

I think people are underestimating the place Acolytes have in an Arcanite list. Especially when used in conjunction with the pyroflame cult. 2 x 20 Kairic Acolytes will wound on 4's, then 3's for the shooting in the hero phase, and then both will wound on 3's in the actually shooting phase. 
 

Does this work, even though the Arch Pyromancer ability is limited to the same phase - not the same turn? It may depend on whether you throw in a third unit of 10 as a Primer for the other two. That's 50 Acos though....sigh.

[Nico]

The Cabal with 3 Shamen all with Windthief Charms could be quite tasty - in your hero phase they all move up to 32" and then fire off 9 spells with reroll casting rolls!

[Tasman]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

The Cabal with 3 Shamen all with Windthief Charms could be quite tasty - in your hero phase they all move up to 32" and then fire off 9 spells with reroll casting rolls!

Yeah but, surely, the Rule of One keeps them from being able to do this effectively on the same turn. Even being able to cast one spell twice, the third spell cast will be a duplicate of some kind. 

In another vein,

I'm finding that my opponents (rightfully) fear the sky fires enough to target the squishy shamans that are giving those buffs to hit rolls.

After a turn or two, they're back to only getting it on 6's. Nothing to fear there. Not enough volume of fire to really inspire dread in an opponent. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I only run them in mss's of 3. That way I'm getting max use of aviarchs and also don't find myself wiping out a big hit with fold reality.

[Nico]

Quote

Yeah but, surely, the Rule of One keeps them from being able to do this effectively on the same turn. Even being able to cast one spell twice, the third spell cast will be a duplicate of some kind. 

The Shaman might need to be a General and might need to use the knows two extra spells trait to get full value - unless you're planning to summon some stuff.

[RavensTalons88]

Pink Horrors > Kairic Acolytes

I have been playing my disciples of tzeentch pretty consistantly on weekends and at tournaments since the battletome came out, and I promise you that Kairic Acolytes hit like a wet noodle. Its really a shame because they are beautiful models, but if you are looking for a competitive list/want to win games don't get them.

Pink Horrors are far superior, they are costed the same at 140 and also battleline. But they have a 5+ instead on a 6+, dont need to be baby sat by a tzeentch wizard to hit on a 4+. D6 Come back to life on a battleshock roll of 1 and you can bring D6 more back to life with fold reality. They are bravery 10 instead of 5. They are one of the best tarpit units in the game if you hold some blues and brimstones in reserve and utilize the split mechanic. You can slingshot them across the board by summoning them, which is super usefull for contesting objectives in the enemys territory. They are also wizards can cast a spell, and synergize with Tzaangor banners.

All in all far superior to Acolytes. If you are just looking for cheap battleline mauraders are a great as well, especially for only 60 points.


As aformentioned, you can make Acolytes moderatly better with wychfyre coven, but honestly its way too much of a points sink. For that amount of points you could get 9 skyfires, or a Lord of Change and have points left over. Both of these are a way more effective use of points.

Hope this helps

All is change! Glory to Tzeentch!!![emoji91][emoji91][emoji91]

Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, RavensTalons88 said:

Pink Horrors > Kairic Acolytes

I have been playing my disciples of tzeentch pretty consistantly on weekends and at tournaments since the battletome came out, and I promise you that Kairic Acolytes hit like a wet noodle. Its really a shame because they are beautiful models, but if you are looking for a competitive list/want to win games don't get them....

 For that amount of points you could get 9 skyfires, or a Lord of Change and have points left over. Both of these are a way more effective use of points.

This is an easy trap to fall into and is part of the reason why net lists are so pervasive. I must say that nobody was overwhelmingly excited about skyfires until we saw what they were able to do at Adepticon and LVO. It's not that they got better, it's that somebody actually showed us that they were effective if used in a particular way. If you find that arcanites are "not worth their points" you're probably using them wrong. 
 

2 hours ago, RavensTalons88 said:

Pink Horrors are far superior, they are costed the same at 140 and also battleline. But they have a 5+ instead on a 6+, dont need to be baby sat by a tzeentch wizard to hit on a 4+. D6 Come back to life on a battleshock roll of 1 and you can bring D6 more back to life with fold reality. They are bravery 10 instead of 5. They are one of the best tarpit units in the game if you hold some blues and brimstones in reserve and utilize the split mechanic. You can slingshot them across the board by summoning them, which is super usefull for contesting objectives in the enemys territory. They are also wizards can cast a spell, and synergize with Tzaangor banners.

Those are all good reason why pink horrors are worth taking in a list. Although using them as a tarpit really means bumping the cost up significantly; almost 200 pts. Furthermore, the extra point of save isn't really applicable, because Acolytes get a 6+ save vs damage and mortal wounds (which actually makes their save better than the pinks who have no special save vs mortal wounds). On top of that, there's an additional reason to learn how Acolytes can be use don the field; pinks can be summoned to battlefield if you need them but Kairic acolytes have to be written into a list and in order to unlock certain battalions (some fairly useful one at that). You have to take them. Since certain battalions require them, it makes sense to ask "what can I accomplish with this unit?" rather than complaining that "other things are better."

 

2 hours ago, RavensTalons88 said:

Its really a shame because they are beautiful models, but if you are looking for a competitive list/want to win games don't get them.

All in all far superior to Acolytes. If you are just looking for cheap battleline mauraders are a great as well, especially for only 60 points.

They are beautiful models and certainly if you're just looking to make battleline and nothing else, marauders are probably a better choice. Especially if your entire strategy with them revolves around running up the field with a unit of 10 without support or purpose. But if you're looking for a "competitive" list there's a place for acolytes. You just need to make sure you have a solid role for them to play and clearly defined job for them. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; there is a role and use for every single unit in the game. Every single unit in Age of Sigmar is competitive provided you build a cohesive strategy around gameplay (I will say that strategy is more obvious with some units than others). Hell, even units like Skyfires are pretty useless if your opponent manages to get a charge off on them.

There are no "bad" units in the game. Only units that are being used ineffectively or at cross purposes with their design. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

There are no "bad" units in the game. Only units that are being used ineffectively or at cross purposes with their design. 

Sounds like a challenge. Black Ark Corsairs are just an inferior version of Judicators or Waywatchers or Glade Guard in every respect (and are not pointed cheaply enough to warrant inclusion). The Battalion they unlock is also junk.

Similarly High Elf Spearmen are a worse version of Eternal Guard.

Chaos Ogres or Chaos Trolls or Centigors (shudder) or the Great Taurus also spring to mind as being junk.

Perhaps more constructively, I should say that I can see a use for Acos, either to get you a single drop army of Arcanites or as decent damage dealers in the Fatesworn Warband (with rend). They still look ripe for a points reduction.

[Nico]

Quote

It's not that they got better, it's that somebody actually showed us that they were effective if used in a particular way. 

The absurd melee damage from a unit of 9 is the kicker and the thing which isn't obvious on paper.

[Thomas Lyons]

On May 23, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Tokyo Nift said:

I'd still say this is contested.

There's one FAQ that says Special Characters can be used in formations as long as the special character has they keyword (Kairos does)

It isn't because this FAQ which you've mentioned was removed from the most recent FAQ.  While this was a clarification at one time, they've since deleted this response. 

This means the answer is thus very clear: if a name isn't bolded, then it is the name of a Warscroll.  If it is bolded, then it refers to a keyword.  End of discussion.