Blood & Glory and the role (roll?) of double turns

[daedalus81]

I want to see if we can get comments from Blood & Glory players on the perceived advantage (or disadvantage) our rolling for initiative at the tournament.  I know @Ben was top dog there, so let's hear it!

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Why specifically Blood and Glory players? 

Rolling for initiative is part of the game, there's no specific advantage to rolling for it, both players have to do it!

The main thing that seems to influence is if you want the first turn, or have the first chance to get a double turn. 

I've previously blogged on double turn considerations: http://thejabbertzeentch.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/double-turn-tactics.html?m=1

[daedalus81]

Mostly data collection and whether they felt the outcome was altered by the roll.  

[Tanka]

I'm sure most games were altered by the roll...it is a key game mechanic.

 

Would this be like asking people if they felt their game's outcome was affected by the hero phase or close combat?

 

I played in a tournament recently here in melbourne and 3 games out of 4 were influenced by the initiative roll, 2 in my favour and one against. But it's a key mechanic, I expect it to affect the game, I just needed to ensure I managed it as best I could and I felt I did.

[daedalus81]

2 hours ago, Tanka said:

I'm sure most games were altered by the roll...it is a key game mechanic.

Would this be like asking people if they felt their game's outcome was affected by the hero phase or close combat?

I played in a tournament recently here in melbourne and 3 games out of 4 were influenced by the initiative roll, 2 in my favour and one against. But it's a key mechanic, I expect it to affect the game, I just needed to ensure I managed it as best I could and I felt I did.

That still doesn't offer a proper view into the effect of the rule itself.  We're still talking anecdotes.

I want more data to consume with opinions on whether the player felt they could have handled it better, or not.  I'm pro-initiative roll and I want to see what games look like at the highest competitive level.  Especially since there are no large tournaments around here yet.

[Tanka]

I'm very unclear as to what you are actually after then?

 

You state that my explanation of what happened at the tournament is not a proper view and that we are talking anecdotes- yet you are asking for anecdotal evidence from people at Blood and Glory.

it seems contradictory- I am trying to understand what you actually want here? You later say you want data- I gave you data- 3 out of 4 games- still not enough?

Perhaps you need to be a little more specific in your original post and correct the typo in it so people are clear as to what you are trying to achieve, it may give your thread some more traction.

Best of Luck

[Andreas]

One way you could do some data analysis regarding the double turn is to gather all available tournament standings. Then you could see if the double turn impact the game so much that the outcome is random. And if for example Russ wins every other tournament then we could conclude that he is either very lucky or the double turn dont impact the game so much that it makes the outcome random.

[Turragor]

5 hours ago, Andreas said:

One way you could do some data analysis regarding the double turn is to gather all available tournament standings. Then you could see if the double turn impact the game so much that the outcome is random. And if for example Russ wins every other tournament then we could conclude that he is either very lucky or the double turn dont impact the game so much that it makes the outcome random.

As an addendum to this, could it not already be said that:

Unless the tournament standings are entirely random, then the double turn is not the most important factor in a game

?

By that I mean, if a double turn is the sole decider and it's entirely chance (dice roll) then all match results are 50 / 50.

Edit/ not accounting for the possibility that both players get a double turn - just hypothesising with the 'first' or 'crucial' double turn.

[Turragor]

Just an extra bit onto this:

I know (anecdote) that there are some games where I've won as I got the double turn or my opponent won because I got the double turn. But if I check the steps up to that point, the double turn itself isn't the cause it's a bunch of decisions before.

Now if I decided everything right and my opponent did also, then chance (and army selection) is what separates us. We are playing a game of chance.

I could rightly feel that the initiative roll is an arbitrary way to decide the winner. I agree that the initiative roll is as impactful as an entire round of charge rolls or shooting rolls or combat phase rolls (for example).

In reality I can't imagine many cases where two perfect players with perfect lists will make perfect decisions in tandem for a whole match.

[daedalus81]

10 hours ago, Tanka said:

I'm very unclear as to what you are actually after then?

 

You state that my explanation of what happened at the tournament is not a proper view and that we are talking anecdotes- yet you are asking for anecdotal evidence from people at Blood and Glory.

it seems contradictory- I am trying to understand what you actually want here? You later say you want data- I gave you data- 3 out of 4 games- still not enough?

Perhaps you need to be a little more specific in your original post and correct the typo in it so people are clear as to what you are trying to achieve, it may give your thread some more traction.

Best of Luck

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What I'd want to see is:

Game 1 - loss, went first, lost roll, occurred turn 4, minimal impact
Game 2 - win, went second, lost roll, occurred turn 3, minimal impact
Game 3 - win, went first, won roll, occurred turns 2 and 4, major impact

etc

[Andreas]

I think the best way that gives most data is to see if certain players do well over several tournaments. That would be unlikly if list design and game play is less important than the priority roll.

But we actually have six games (on table one) on twitch where you could make a list like you described above if someone can to go thru them.

From memory:

Game 5 (from the winner's perspektiv): win, went second, lost roll, minimal impact (he said he would probably have given the it away if he would have won the roll)

Just fill in the other ones and we can see what we get.

[Tanka]

9 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

What I'd want to see is:

Game 1 - loss, went first, lost roll, occurred turn 4, minimal impact
Game 2 - win, went second, lost roll, occurred turn 3, minimal impact
Game 3 - win, went first, won roll, occurred turns 2 and 4, major impact

Well isn't that a whole lot clearer now.

Best of luck with your data analysis.

[daedalus81]

4 hours ago, Tanka said:

Well isn't that a whole lot clearer now.

Best of luck with your data analysis.

No chance now.  You guys nuked it.