Woods, how many to summon?

[thediceabide]

Hey guys, I'm just looking at the new GHB entry for Sylvaneth Wyldwoods and I'm wondering if the min/max unit size of 1 means a single citadel wood. Before people were summoning "two or more" though now with the unit size of 1/1, should they now be placing a single tree base?

[Craptrain]

20 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

All Matched Play rules are secondary by that reasoning.

GW took the time to release the points and min/max model number for Sylvaneth Wyldwoods and Balewind Vortex just last week.

I would think GW knew what they were doing when they released it.

Respectfully no, all matched play rules are not secondary and nothing in my post states or even implies that.  It's a question of explicit vs. ambiguous, not GHB vs. warscroll.  You're simply choosing to go with ambiguous while I'm saying we should go by what's explicit.  If Games Workshop wants to come out and explicitly state that terrain features are units and citadel woods are models, that's fine, however that isn't the case (and by looking at other warscrolls it shows us that's not even Games Workshop's intent).  You're assuming that two numbers in two columns on a table that wasn't designed for scenery is somehow a definitive ruling when that simply couldn't be further from that truth.

[Choombatta]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

It sounded like you were implying that Warscrolls were the Primary source, and the GHB was a secondary source.

So as I originally asked, people are saying the Min/Max should be ignored, because it is a scenery piece, even though GW saw fit to add Min/Max to the Wyldwood just last week.

As for why Min/Max matters, it is because GW saw fit to add them. If it did not matter, just give them a points value and end it there.

Battalions have points but no Min/Max entry, so there is a precedence for not giving some Matched Play profiles points without a model limit.

[BaldoBeardo]

You place one wyldwood. One. The 'unit' is a single wyldwood. That's why it's max 1, that's why it's min 1. You get one.

The wyldwood you place, however, consists of up to 3 citadel woods.

That in no way violates the min-max situation.

That said, I believe the intent *is* a single wood, because my general experience thus far is that when matched play throws up a rules query, go with the least interesting / most stifling response...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[discoking]

Summon Fell Bats/Bat Swarms lets you summon 1-3 but GHB limits it to 2 per 80pts.

Surely the same thing?

[Craptrain]

6 minutes ago, discoking said:

Summon Fell Bats/Bat Swarms lets you summon 1-3 but GHB limits it to 2 per 80pts.

Surely the same thing?

Where are you getting 2 from for Fell Bats?  I see 3 as the minimum size in both the GHB and on the warscroll.  For Bat Swarms you're right though.

However, I doubt these situations are the same because A)  Fell Bats and Bat Swarms are not scenery and B) Fell Bats and Bat Swarms are not the basis for Death's allegiance abilities.

[discoking]

Yeah sorry bout Fell Bats,my bad

[Aezeal]

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:49 AM, Choombatta said:

Sylvaneth Wyldwood is a warscroll, Citadel Wood is a model kit.

A Sylvaneth Wyldwood warscroll consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models.

It is no different than a Unit of Blood Warriors consists of 5 or more Blood Warrior models.

You cannot ignore the Min/Max # of models, just because it is scenery.

But as scrubyandwells said, nothing is stopping you from taking multiple Sylvaneth Warscrolls, but each one in a Match Play game "should" only contain a single Citadel Wood model.

Your post starts out correct.. all the facts right. But the conclusion is wrong. 1-3 bases of citadel woods PER Wyldwood and that WHOLE wildwood (1-3 bases of citadel woods) costs 40 points (for non sylvaneth who shouldn't bring it anyway and who cannot summon it either unless they have a TLA).

[Aezeal]

On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:28 AM, BaldoBeardo said:

That said, I believe the intent *is* a single wood, because my general experience thus far is that when matched play throws up a rules query, go with the least interesting / most stifling response...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 

If a single wood base was intended they'd just change the wildwood warscroll against to 1 base of citadel wood.. so it's not what was intended (and certainly not what is written, as you already said).

[Choombatta]

I know this is getting somewhat redundant at this point, but....

If a single wood base was intended, they would just give it a Min/Max of 1 when they released the Matched Play profile for Sylvaneth Wyldwoods.

Much easier than changing the warscroll, which was not changed at all when they released the matched play profile for them.

Otherwise, why not ask why they did not change the Blood Warrior warscroll to read 5-10 models?

If your answer is because that would then affect all types of play, not just Matched Play, well.....bingo!

[Craptrain]

2 hours ago, Choombatta said:

I know this is getting somewhat redundant at this point, but....

If a single wood base was intended, they would just give it a Min/Max of 1 when they released the Matched Play profile for Sylvaneth Wyldwoods.

Much easier than changing the warscroll, which was not changed at all when they released the matched play profile for them.

Otherwise, why not ask why they did not change the Blood Warrior warscroll to read 5-10 models?

If your answer is because that would then affect all types of play, not just Matched Play, well.....bingo!

The min/max of 1 does not refer to a citadel wood.  It refers to a sylvaneth wyldwood, which is up to 3 citadel woods.  It's very clear what the intention was here.

[Choombatta]

The only thing Min/Max refers to is models.

There is no such thing as a Sylvaneth Wyldwood model, only a warscroll.

The only other possibility I can see, is that the Matched Play profile for Sylvaneth Wyldwood is the only profile with a Min/Max that does not refer to models, but warscrolls.

 

[rokapoke]

9 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

The only other possibility I can see, is that the Matched Play profile for Sylvaneth Wyldwood is the only profile with a Min/Max that does not refer to models, but warscrolls.

 

You'll notice it's also the only entry that refers to scenery rather than a unit. 

[Craptrain]

53 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

The only thing Min/Max refers to is models.

There is no such thing as a Sylvaneth Wyldwood model, only a warscroll.

The only other possibility I can see, is that the Matched Play profile for Sylvaneth Wyldwood is the only profile with a Min/Max that does not refer to models, but warscrolls.

 

There is also no citadel wood model, only a kit.  

[Choombatta]

So the warscroll states a Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood kits?

@rokapoke, well the Vortex also, but I do know what you mean.

[Craptrain]

12 hours ago, Choombatta said:

So the warscroll states a Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood kits?

@rokapoke, well the Vortex also, but I do know what you mean.

It says "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood is a terrain feature consisting of up to three Citadel Woods". 

[Choombatta]

If that is the case, they have changed the wording, and I would have to reconsider my position.

It always said before "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models".

 

You are indeed correct, they changed the wording on the warscroll recently to remove the word "models".

[Arkiham]

Really get the feeling people haven't even read the sylvaneth Wyldwood rules and are just giving their opinion.

[Choombatta]

Considering the rules "changed" recently, I can see why.

[thediceabide]

14 hours ago, Choombatta said:

So the warscroll states a Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood kits?

@rokapoke, well the Vortex also, but I do know what you mean.

Each kit comes with 2 bases of trees, so by your argument, you actually get to place up to 6...

[Craptrain]

1 hour ago, Choombatta said:

If that is the case, they have changed the wording, and I would have to reconsider my position.

It always said before "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models".

 

You are indeed correct, they changed the wording on the warscroll recently to remove the word "models".

Did it used to say models?  In the hardback Sylvaneth battletome the word "model" is not present in the description for Wyldwoods.

[Choombatta]

Yes, it used to say "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models"

Now it says "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consist of up to 3 Citadel Woods"

With that change in wording, I would agree with your conclusion.

@thediceabide, is there a newer kit for woods? There at first was only the "Citadel Wood" kit, that came with 1 base. After AoS released they then also came out with the Sylvaneth Wood kit, that contains 3 bases. I did not know they released a kit that came with 2 bases.

[thediceabide]

2 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Yes, it used to say "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models"

Now it says "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consist of up to 3 Citadel Woods"

With that change in wording, I would agree with your conclusion.

@thediceabide, is there a newer kit for woods? There at first was only the "Citadel Wood" kit, that came with 1 base. After AoS released they then also came out with the Sylvaneth Wood kit, that contains 3 bases. I did not know they released a kit that came with 2 bases.

Hmm, I haven't bought mine in years, I thought they came in 2's.

The Min/Max of 1 actually has no effect on the number of "Sylvaneth Wyldwoods" you can purchase together, as the Max 1 explicitly affects models by the rules, it doesn't directly affect how many duplicates of a warscroll you can take (which is important, since not all scrolls have model counts that match the requirements of the GHB). The same argument saying that since they aren't models you're not affected by the Max 1, also means you're not able to meet the minimum requirement of 1 model, and so couldn't play the Sylvaneth Wyldwoods at all. ;-)

In either case, if someone told me to my face that their Citadel Wood wasn't a model, I'd ask them to get their head checked.

[Choombatta]

Actually, going back and researching the changes even more, it appears Sylvaneth Wyldwood's description has changed multiple times.

The original Scenery PDF released after AoS stated "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 2 or more Citadel Wood models."

Then it was changed to "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models."

Then it was changed yet again to the current description: "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consist of up to 3 Citadel Woods."

@thediceabide, I think you and I have always been in agreement on Citadel Wood being a model, and min.max only affecting model count. It was others who claimed Citadel Woods were a "kit" and then min/max was not a model count determiner.

[thediceabide]

4 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

Actually, going back and researching the changes even more, it appears Sylvaneth Wyldwood's description has changed multiple times.

The original Scenery PDF released after AoS stated "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 2 or more Citadel Wood models."

Then it was changed to "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consists of 1-3 Citadel Wood models."

Then it was changed yet again to the current description: "A Sylvaneth Wyldwood consist of up to 3 Citadel Woods."

@thediceabide, I think you and I have always been in agreement on Citadel Wood being a model, and min.max only affecting model count. It was others who claimed Citadel Woods were a "kit" and then min/max was not a model count determiner.

Haha, yeah, I more meant the "royal you." That whole "it's not a model, it's a kit" business is pretty silly.

[Arkiham]

So, the conclusion and confusion is people are basing their comments off old information without doing some fact checking to make sure it's correct ?