Nagash Math

[TerrorPenguin]

Is Nagash worth it in matched play? I was thinking only at around 3000 points but even then one of his big things is his spell casting which I'm not even sure you can make work.

At full strength he can cast 8 spells per turn, he has two unique spells (one of which is insane) so that's four, but he also knows the spells of any other death wizard on the battle field.

As most wizards will be casting their own unique spells, we are looking for death wizards with two unique spells and we need four in total to use them all, I can't find any that have two. 

Which I guess just leaves summoning, and you would need a hell of a lot of points left over to summon four useful units (all different of course) each turn.

Are his spell abilities wasted in matched play?

[WillofNagash]

Him and arkhan seem like fun, make arkhan general, increase range 6" do 9" hand of dust with either arkhan or Nagash. 2k quite easily, but I'm sure it's just a fun list and not competitive.

[Tronhammer NZ]

I've used him at - 2k event. Totally worth it IMO. I was able to fit in an entire Legion of Death battalion - his command ability is a massive buff.

He is a 'swing' unit. He can turn the battle around, and will win you game outright if your opponent isn't prepared. You don't need summoning or all 8 spells to make him worth his points, but I am testing out Deathlord allegiance armies (Morghast as Battleline) to try to get this value out of him as well.

Having seen him in action I think his points are fair, and you can certainly make him competitive.

[WillofNagash]

21 minutes ago, Tronhammer NZ said:

I've used him at - 2k event. Totally worth it IMO. I was able to fit in an entire Legion of Death battalion - his command ability is a massive buff.

He is a 'swing' unit. He can turn the battle around, and will win you game outright if your opponent isn't prepared. You don't need summoning or all 8 spells to make him worth his points, but I am testing out Deathlord allegiance armies (Morghast as Battleline) to try to get this value out of him as well.

Having seen him in action I think his points are fair, and you can certainly make him competitive.

I've never thought about putting with with anything ther than marghasts but after looking at legion of death with him... makes me think. Even have 140 left over for summoning... thanks for the idea brother!

[WillofNagash]

32 minutes ago, Tronhammer NZ said:

his command ability is a massive buff.

Refilling 1s and no battle shock seems kinda weak though, wouldn't making the Wight King the general give one unit +1 attack? 

Also just did the math:

legion of death + Nagash = still room to summon 2 units of morghast or a unit of 4... brutal, I might try this tomorrow night.

[Tronhammer NZ]

Don't underestimate an army wide immunity to battleshock, especially for this much infantry where you need to hold objectives and they get models back each turn. Also, with that many attacks, re-rolling all those 1's has a big effect over the course of a battle. With Nagash it's for the whole army, not just one unit.

EDIT: Additionally, Nagash with Mystic Shield re-rolling 1s to save means he can run around doing the business while your infantry holds the line.

I like it. You get a decent model count and have a great table presence despite having such an expensive model down.

I ran a large unit of Grave Guard, but Morghasts also sound nice. In this event I did not lose Nagash in any of my games, and only lost the last game on objectives due to Settra shenanigans.

[TerrorPenguin]

Hmm, okay, so he doesn't need the 8 spells, looking at it again his command ability does seem very strong.

Anyone had someone rage quit after 'hand of dust' went off on something high value? That spell seems bonkers

[Tronhammer NZ]

1 hour ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Anyone had someone rage quit after 'hand of dust' went off on something high value? That spell seems bonkers

I think I've identified a psychological quirk wherein one hand is more likely to be picked than the other... but I will never share...

Biggest prize so far has been a Thundertusk.

[Nico]

The Command Ability scales, so materially better at 2,500 points etc.. Nevertheless it's still good. I think he would be best with a lot of Nighthaunt units to make the reroll saves of 1 buff shine. It's still very hard to justify taking him at 900 points.

[Solaris]

Really cool-looking army you have there, Tronhammer. That might be one of the better ways of fitting Nagash in at 2k points. However, I do think he, and other similarly expensive models, are too large to be highly competitive. There are ways that skilled opponents can exploit such a huge point investment in game, and there is very little you can do about it. I do think you can reach a top 25% finish in a tournament with Nagash, but higher than that will be tough against skilled players with competitive lists.

Of course, Nagash does best in Open play, where there are no restrictions on summoning and spellcasting.

[Oppenheimer]

I had Nagash hand or dust Settra which was nice and also thematic!

He's pretty good even without 8 spells but I still think he's a bit over costed. He's not significantly better than Archaeon.

If they ever bring out an army wide lore like the sylvaneth get then he'll be worth the points. I'm hoping that is the reason they made him all expensive.

[Nico]

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I had Nagash hand or dust Settra which was nice and also thematic!

What would have been cinematic would be if Settra's Curse had killed Nagash right back.

I think he's significantly better than Archaon #gotrend. He also has a shooting attack.

 

[deynon]

I'm curious...what kida of spells are you using to need Nagash? Cause ones you summoned 1-2 units you have finished the points avalaible. Then you have the basic spells and then the one cjaracteristic of nagsh...so even considering the max you have 4-5 spells to cast and even not neccessarily so each turn...I don'ts see such an avantage. Ok it can know the spells of the other your models...but...really?

[Tronhammer NZ]

It's fun to go up against Tomb Kings and use the liche priest spells...

I must say it's nice to know I've been running the 'fluffy' choice - my mates will be pleased to know I've been going easy on them all this time!

[kozokus]

Why a legion of death in particular? Is there any other nice companion for Nagash aviable?

[Tronhammer NZ]

3 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Why a legion of death in particular? Is there any other nice companion for Nagash aviable?

Probably. I like to get as many synergies as possible into a list, and there is a fluff choice I enjoy as well from the old world (Nagash and Krell's Doomed Legion). The extra movement per turn is important for undead infantry I think with the matched play scenarios.

[Squirrelmaster]

He works well with Tomb Kings, a lot of their units can't be summoned, but can be healed or re-animated, meaning you can actually get some use out of those extra castings.

[Solaris]

1 minute ago, Squirrelmaster said:

He works well with Tomb Kings, a lot of their units can't be summoned, but can be healed or re-animated, meaning you can actually get some use out of those extra castings.

And if you have Settra as your general, Nagash becomes stronger as well  I love how Nagash flourishes under Settra's leadership, while Settra hardly gives a ****** about Nagash's leadership. Settra does rule indeed!

[Nico]

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And if you have Settra as your general, Nagash becomes stronger as well  I love how Nagash flourishes under Settra's leadership, while Settra hardly gives a ****** about Nagash's leadership. Settra does rule indeed!

Nagash's command ability would have a bigger impact on Settra than vice versa.

[Solaris]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Nagash's command ability would have a bigger impact on Settra than vice versa.

Not sure about that, +30% damage output in combat is pretty significant. Of course, a 17-20% increased chance to save any non-mortal wound is also significant.

[Squirrelmaster]

It's debatable. +1 to hit is a bigger boon than re-rolling 1s to hit, especially combined with the "Frightful Touch" ability of Nagash's Spectral Claws and Daggers. Of course, re-rolling 1s to save means Nagash's ability also boosts survivability, which Settra's doesn't. Settra himself won't benefit from ignoring battleshock, though.

As for the rest of your army — if you're running mostly deathrattle, in a game small enough for Settra to boost everyone, I'd say his command ability has more impact (plus, with him as your general, you get the Crown of Nehekhara effect as well). For larger games, especially with a lot of non-deathrattle units, I'd go with Nagash. His ability also works better on elites who already have good to-hit and save characteristics, Settra's works better for hordes of cheap stuff.

[Solaris]

Oops, I missed the rerolls of 1s to hit, that would turn things around. Bummer.

I disagree with the rest though, I think Settra can be better in larger battles as well. It of course depends on your army composition, but if you pick the right units Settra can put the whole army on steroids. And that's before taking into account the Crown of Nehekhara and the Incantation of the Desert Wind.

If you go above 3k I suppose the unlimited range of Nagash's command ability would start to really come into effect, and at that point the drawbacks of fielding really expensive models are much less pronounced.

[Squirrelmaster]

You get the Incantation of the Desert Wind regardless of which one is your general, if you have them both in your army.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that as the battles get larger, Nagash's unlimited range wins out, it's just a question of how large the game has to be before that happens, and I think that really comes down to army composition. Then again, running them both together is over 1200 pts, if you're playing below 3000pts you won't have much else of an army anyway.

[Solaris]

Nope, which is why I don't think Nagash is worth fielding below 3k to begin with - there are so many ways your opponent can abuse that half your army is locked in a single model.

You're absolutely right about the incantation though.