Let's talk the noble and honourable Flesh Eater Courts

[wayniac]

As a new ghoul king (and new to age of sigmar in general), I find myself overwhelmed sometimes with decisions.  Some reading has rekindled my desire to stick with FEC for a bit more (also the fact I've only played like 2 games) and expand the army.  I didn't see an actual thread for tactics on the Courts so I hope to glean some tips, tricks and tactics from my fellow noble royalty about how best to make use of our men-at-arms.

Are battalions other than Ghoul Patrol and possibly The Abbatoir worth looking at?  Specifically the ones like King's Ghouls or Royal Mordants, or are they too generic/not as good for what you get?  I think I've seen Deadwatch once in a while with a ton of Flayers, but that is usually it.  I like the idea of the Ghoul Patrol in theory, but something feels weird about not having any big blocks of troops on the table at first.  

As far as the choice of Horrors v. Flayers, what do you find works best?  I think right now I'm more partial to the Horrors, because they seem more tanky and in my thus far very limited experience, being more resilient especially with auto-healing is a pretty big thing, although I like that the Flayers have a chance to get Mortal Wounds out, although it's more of a gamble I think.  Thus far I've tried to go for a 50/50 mix of the two, with a slight nod to the Horrors if I have to choose.

My other main dilemma is Zombie Dragon vs. Terrorgheist.  I have a TG already, I'm going to build a ZD next (and somehow figure out a way to get a King on foot so I have him too) so I can try them out, but thus far since I like resiliency, the GKoTG has worked great (plus he's scary in combat; my last game he ate a Lord Celestant on Dracoth with the bite attack).

What have you found to work for you?  Is it best to go the route I commonly see and take a ton of Flayers/Horrors to have super fast, or go for a more balanced force with big blocks of ghouls to tarpit?

 

[TerrorPenguin]

I am relatively inexperienced in this myself, so can't contribute to all the questions. I tried Ghoul Patrol last night and against a destruction army the outflanking really didn't help as they were already halfway up the board by the time I got to deploy - although the returning models was extremely useful although I'm not sure if it was 100 points useful. I don't think I got 10 back (the value of a unit of 10 ghouls) overall.

The second game I played I got a bit more synergy going - without ghoul patrol. The courtiers are really useful as you have a 5 in 6 chance of restoring 6 ghouls (not the actual odds I know - basically as long as you don't roll ones) to any unit within 10. Then the ghoul kings spell and his bubble of influence can mean units of ghouls hitting on 4's with three attacks and re-rolling 1's. That's potentially 60 attacks for a unit of 20 ghouls. I am going to look at something like 1 courtier for a unit of 20 ghouls + ghoul kings to try and keep the bubbles. If the courtier kills something first it's 80 attacks. 

I have gone with horrors rather than flayers for their tankness, but have found their heal is not great, as although it states 'each model heals one wound' in matched play you allocate wounds to a model until it dies, so it's really only healing one wound per hero phase. They have put out some serious damage in some games, and not been so great in others. If I have ghouls and horrors I do really lack rend.

I can't really help with ZD vs. terrorgheist - I have only assembled and been playing with the zombie dragon but because of the scale of our games (1000points) makes it difficult to take. He has put out some decent damage - and the ring of resurrection on him is a bit much.

I am currently liking hordes and so am taking plenty of ghouls, but I do think horrors would do well as battleline as well.

[wayniac]

That is another thing I am unsure sometimes of how many ghouls to actually take. Previously I always was a fan of MSU but ghouls seem to be an exception because they get a bonus at 20 however that also means that you want more than 20 so one guy dying, which tends to be pretty easy for ghouls, does not remove the bonus. However that puts the dilemma that in matched play your choice then becomes 30 since you can't do say 25 and huge blocks of 30 ghouls gets expensive both in points and in dollars.

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[Nico]

MSU is a disaster for melee armies. 

Quote

Are battalions other than Ghoul Patrol and possibly The Abbatoir worth looking at? 

Short answer no.

The 4 Flappies formation Royal Menagerie is powerful, but query how effective it will be for scoring objectives. Might be good if you have a sideboard.

The GKoZD is integral to this army (unless you're going all Crypt Horrors or all Crypt Flayers with the derpy courtier as your general). The reroll wounds aura is immense. The GKoTG is also very handy. 

This is my strongest FEC list:

FEC plus Necromancer
1 x Abhorrent Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon (1) (General)	400
1 x Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (1)	400
1 x Necromancer (1)	120
1 x Abhorrant Ghoul King (1)	100
1 x Ghouls (10)	100
1 x Ghouls (10)	100
1 x Ghouls (10)	100
4 x Crypt Horrors	560
	1880
Summoning Pool
1 x Crypt Haunter Courtier (1)	120
	2000

Yes - you get a Deathstar unit of 12 Horrors with two 5+ ward saves and both Flappies. It doesn't have any shooting or much rend, so some matchups will be challenging.

 

[Grimnaud]

I've been thinking about writing something about the FEC, so I'm glad you made the thread @wayniac.

The FEC-army is restricted to a handful of different sets and troop choices, yet offers a variety of choices when it comes to playing styles. In a competitive setting however, I feel that the options are narrowed down.

In my opinion, the heart of the FEC is our infantry and monstrous infantry, supported and buffed by our various support characters. Kept within the support and buff bubbles provided by characters, this is where the true power lies. Rerolls and muster for already decent troops is the main strength, and should therefore be the main focus of a competitive list.

Focusing on those strengths means I stocking up on either ghouls or horrors, and ideally both. Ghouls should be in units of 30 or larger to ensure that they get the bonus third attack in close combat regardless of a few casualties. How large the unit should over the base of 30 depends on the role I want it to play and the support I plan to give it. Less support - larger unit, more support – no need for as large a unit. That doesn’t mean that every single ghoul unit should be that large. Smaller units can play a range of useful roles, claiming objectives, screening, providing chaff, and so on. The units of 30+ will be one of my main combat units.

Horrors should likewise be in units of 6 or larger, again depending on the role I intend for them. The size of the Horror units should vary less dependent on the support, as mustering a Horror is more unlikely than a ghoul. To keep the unit alive until I get lucky with the muster rolls 6 Horrors is a nice number. The unit is not too unwieldy, all 6 have a chance of attacking unlike in a unit of 9 or 12, and finally that it would take a lot to wipe out 24 wounds in a turn.

Having set the combination of Horrors and Ghouls I like it is time to turn to the support characters for the flesh devouring horde. The most important ones are Courtiers. Ghast, Haunter, and Varghulf Courtiers provide that all-important muster bubble that will see models coming back to fight again and again. Their main purpose is to provide that bubble. I’m not buying them for their combat ability, and unless it is as part of a last effort or important push, they won’t see combat. I especially like the Varghulf for this, as his muster ability lets me redistribute Horrors and Ghouls as needed, meaning that all those 2s, 3s, and 4s, that would have been wasted for a Haunter can now bring back Ghouls instead. One Courtier per 2-3 units of the same type, plus a Vargulf to aid where it is needed is a good rule of thumb.

The next support character is the Ghoul King in his various forms. Yes, I’m counting the Ghoul King as a support character as well. His objectives are to 1) provide a reroll bubble and save  for Ghouls and Horrors, 2) provide magical support and defense, 3) use his command ability to minimize battle shock losses for exposed units / summon, and 4) fight. Only one of these requires him to be your general, and it is not one of the most important ones. Since his most important job in my army is to support my other units, my go-to is the Ghoul King on foot. His spell works great for buffing a unit, and I can get four of them (alternatively one and a unit of thirty ghouls) for the same price as one of the mounted versions. The ability to summon Horrors/Flayers or Courtiers with their command ability is IMO not worth the drawbacks in costs and the minimum size of the summoned units. Not to mention the giant illuminated bullseye a mounted Ghoul King is sporting on his chest.

 

After adding a couple of Courtiers and Ghoul Kings, I try to maximize the utility of our units further with the use of battalions. My favorite is the Ghoul Patrol, but there are two others that has been discussed in depth in my gaming group.

The Ghoul Patrol is in my opinion a great value for the price. Allowing you to come on in force from any table edge can be a double edged sword, as you need to negate the loss of a movement phase by your deployment or risk being left behind. The strength of it is that each unit in the Ghoul patrol is able to regenerate ghouls on its own. That allows you to play them much more aggressively, as you’ll regenerate up to twelve ghouls each hero phase (d6+ 6 times 2+ to be precise). It also allows you to take more chances with your Ghast Courtier since he is no longer the sole provider of regen. He can now be on the front, targeting soft units to get the Trophy Hunter ability active.  

The Abattoir is one of the battalion that’s discussed a lot, but since I favor the Ghoul Patrol, I haven’t tried it out yet. The chance of a mortal wound for each model within 3” is very appealing. The other battalion that’s been discussed is the Royal Menagerie. Three flying monsters set up at the very edge of your terrain, with a free 6” move in your hero phase, and a 14” move in your movement phase gives a threat range of 32” in the first turn. The inclusion of a Ghoul Patrol in the same army will almost certainly guarantee you the first turn. I feel that it’s something of a one trick pony, but could certainly be powerful.

[wayniac]

Very nice writeup @Grimnaud, thanks for your contribution!  I have a lot to mull over.  I admit that I love having my king on a big beastie just because it's a great centerpiece model, even if I totally agree it paints a HUGE bullseye on him.  Fluffwise, I always make the king my general because he's the KING, he should always be in command

I love your thoughts on the sizes, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for and really makes me think about my next purchases.  

[ElectricPaladin]

I prefer the terrorgheist to the dragon, partly because the model is cooler and partly because I like stacking strengths. Death allegiance ability + Ruler of the Night + GKoTG spell + rampant model/wound regeneration = one hard to move unit! If you really want an offensive buff spell, add a king on foot. Which brings me to my second point…

It's true that Ghoul Patrol forms the core of most of my lists, but I sometimes take Royal Family as well. The buff to unit regeneration is huge.

Flayers are mostly good on account of their speed, but in this game of objectives, that can be really important. I've heard tell that they aren't really combat capable unless you take them in a Deadwatch, but I haven't tried that yet.

One more thing: the varghulf is increasingly my go-to courtier outside of battalion requirements. He's just… so good. I wish he had a command ability.

[Nico]

I would be very reluctant to go in without at least one Flappy, since otherwise you've got virtually nothing that can scratch a Dracoth Knight with the Castellant buff, or a Treelord Ancient with its command ability and Oaken Armour. The fact that Horrors lack rend is a big deal.

[wayniac]

I do love my Varghulf.  I am tempted to build my next ZD/TG kit with a king on foot (so I can also use him in smaller battles, because a 400 point model in a 1k battle is a lot of points!); I wish it was easier to magnetize him on/off without sticking him just on the base (which, while I've seen some cool conversions, I don't like how it looks from a visual standpoint.  or I can do my standby and see if I can get the ghoul king on foot or even the old Strigoi Vampire model so I have my choice of each of the three

I think for me, my next experiment will be with big blocks of ghouls; I Only have 20 right now so I am forced to put them in two units of 10 for Battleline requirements, but I'm getting at the very least a start collecting box and might get another box of pure ghouls if the shop has them so I'll have a unit of 30 and a unit of 20; it's tempting to get two start collecting boxes (that would also give me my ghoul king on foot) but not sure.  I have 6 horrors and 3 flayers right now, so with one SC box I'll fill out those units and have my Courtiers also, and a second box would give me two units of 20 ghouls (the 20 I have already and 10 each per Start Collecting box), 6 horrors and 6 flayers + courtiers, plus all three options for the King and would just need a way to make the Crypt Ghasts (which my idea is to find the old metal ghouls and use them); I wonder... I know the ghoul king is a small dude (never did get why he's so small, guess he has Napoleon Complex or something), but I had a thought if I only bought one SC box to convert him somehow from a horror (maybe use the Vargheist body with the fur, plus a regular horror head so it doesn't look like a Vargheist, and outstretched claws and a fancy base), just I think that might cause confusion since he won't look like a ghoul king.

[TerrorPenguin]

Is anyone running necromancers in their FEC armies? I realised (was told) the other evening that Vanhels Danse Macabre could be cast on ghouls or horrors because they have the mordant keyword.

That's potentially another round of attacks with your big units, which might already be buffed by courtiers, kings etc.

[wayniac]

3 minutes ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Is anyone running necromancers in their FEC armies? I realised (was told) the other evening that Vanhels Danse Macabre could be cast on ghouls or horrors because they have the mordant keyword.

That's potentially another round of attacks with your big units, which might already be buffed by courtiers, kings etc.

Someone mentioned this to me the other day too, I had never considered it but now I am thinking of converting a "Court Wizard" ...

[Grimnaud]

16 minutes ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Is anyone running necromancers in their FEC armies? I realised (was told) the other evening that Vanhels Danse Macabre could be cast on ghouls or horrors because they have the mordant keyword.

That's potentially another round of attacks with your big units, which might already be buffed by courtiers, kings etc.

In my now "tainted" lists, no longer pure honourable and knightly Flesh Eaters () , I've been running a Necromancer to great effect. Getting to pile in and attack twice with a unit of 30 ghouls with 3 attacks each is brutal 

I'll also be adding a Vampire as my general for his +1 attack command ability, a Corpse cart for +1 to cast, and spirit hosts, bat swarms, Cairn Wraiths, and Dire Wolves for summoning. As long as the FEC doesn't have their own allegiance traits and items, the entire GA:D catalogue is open. 

[TerrorPenguin]

1 hour ago, Grimnaud said:

In my now "tainted" lists, no longer pure honourable and knightly Flesh Eaters () , I've been running a Necromancer to great effect. Getting to pile in and attack twice with a unit of 30 ghouls with 3 attacks each is brutal 

I'll also be adding a Vampire as my general for his +1 attack command ability, a Corpse cart for +1 to cast, and spirit hosts, bat swarms, Cairn Wraiths, and Dire Wolves for summoning. As long as the FEC doesn't have their own allegiance traits and items, the entire GA:D catalogue is open. 

All the buffs!

Love it, I tried a vamp lord last night but he never really got going, my fault on the placement of him though

[Grimnaud]

13 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

All the buffs!

Love it, I tried a vamp lord last night but he never really got going, my fault on the placement of him though

Ohh yeah! I'm gearing up for a tournament, so gone are the days of fun, fluffy lists. Now it's all about the win.

 

15 hours ago, Nico said:

I would be very reluctant to go in without at least one Flappy, since otherwise you've got virtually nothing that can scratch a Dracoth Knight with the Castellant buff, or a Treelord Ancient with its command ability and Oaken Armour. The fact that Horrors lack rend is a big deal.

I agree, but playing them the way I described above, the FEC aren't killy. It's a grind army. Every time I forget that and get too aggressive I lose. With no movement shenanigans, both Horrors and Ghouls are relatively slow. My Ghoul Patrol rarely, if every, gets more than 24" from where they got on the table. Horrors are faster, but it will still take you three turns to get to the enemy if he isn't coming at you, two if you get really lucky with your run and charge rolls. Once they're there though, they both excel, not at killing, but at claiming ground and objectives. A 30 strong ghoul unit from the Ghoul Patrol in particular is a slow moving meat grinder. It can take all the damage you can dish out, regenerating ghouls each turn, and throw 30+ attacks right back at you turn after turn after turn. Eventually, enough wounds will get through. Now, your Dracoth knights would require 360 wounds, 720 hits, and 1440 attacks on average in order to kill two models buffed by one hero. That's not happening in a five round battle clearly. However, those same two Concussors (because those are the rules I looked up), would cause 9,8 wounds to the Ghoul unit, that regens on average 8,5 ghouls per turn. So it would take 14 rounds of statistically average rolling for the Concussors to outnumber the ghouls. A 280 points unit buffed by a 100 point hero versus a 300 point unit buffed by a third of a hundred point battalion and a 80 point hero could basically hold each other up an entire game. The point here however, is that throughout that entire game, the ghouls will be outnumbering the concussors, claiming any objective fought over in 4 out of 6 battle plans. They don't need to kill in order to claim objectives and win. Math-hammer being what it is, this is obviously not all that useful in real games, but hopefully it illustrates my point. FEC doesn't need to kill the hardest targets. They just need to survive to outnumber them.

[deynon]

About DZ or terror...I prefer the terror, but I simply use both rode buy a ghoul king^^ And I have not usses of choice cause my ones are magnetized so I can change from a terror to a DZ immediately if I decide^^

About the warscrol battlaions useful I think that also  " deathwatch" and "attendants at courts" are quite good" to use. Obviously they require particular lists to be used but it's a good way to experiment.

I prefer a mix from the GA:D and the FEC:B sincerly (but I don't play neecromacer anyway). But playing the FEC:B even alone opens really a lot of options. The ghouls are reall good in the ghoul patrols, but I think that using the horrors as battlelines units can be really interesting and you can always summon the monsters to aid. 

I don't think we have yet finished to try the many combinations avalaible and I'm stll quite opened to try different options.