The Jabber Tzeentch Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 I don't think it is, especially with the current meta of high amounts of ranged attacks. If you restrict access to the Balewind, wizards are just easy targets considering you can move then shoot allowing a unit previously out of range in range to then potentially kill the guy, the Balewind allows wizards to find a degree of safety to still be relevant and do some offensive things rather than having to stay on the extremes of the spells ranges just to cast mystic shield. You may find it boring but I find armies with masses of shooting boring. If I wanted to play 40k I would be, it doesn't mean it is boring Exactly this. Hopefully GW will release more similar terrain and validate this part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Arkiham said: I don't think it is, especially with the current meta of high amounts of ranged attacks. If you restrict access to the Balewind, wizards are just easy targets considering you can move then shoot allowing a unit previously out of range in range to then potentially kill the guy, the Balewind allows wizards to find a degree of safety to still be relevant and do some offensive things rather than having to stay on the extremes of the spells ranges just to cast mystic shield. You may find it boring but I find armies with masses of shooting boring. If I wanted to play 40k I would be, it doesn't mean it is boring When I say boring it is not really in gaming term it is more the look or fluff. If every fraction have their own different scenery I am all onboard. Every wizard of different sizes trying balance on top a specific out of production scenary. It doesnt feel right. But that just my opinion. And I dont want to ban it, my prefered option would be to make a trade of so you see it sometimes, ie put a point cost on it. Edit: I am not saying everyone have it right now but by not having it you have choosen to make your list a little bit softer for some reason. And that is ok, I am a roller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAAAGHdogg15 Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Andreas said: I dont think the problem is that every wizard/army list can have it, it is that every army list should have (even if the dont use it). The option to have it is > 0. So every army list that anyone can conseive that includes a wizard gets improved by buying and painting up a balewind. Isn't that boring, regardles of its rules. Another little point that occurs here is allegiance abilities. When they were brought in, available to every alliance, for free, I'm pretty sure it was universally acclaimed as a great idea. Indeed, I think the consensus would be that they make the game better and more interesting. Plus, nobody is going to choose not to take them. Okay, so the vortex is just one option that basically any army can take. The allegiance abilities at least have variety and flavour which reflect each alliance. As has been said though, the vortex is not an automatic, you still have to cast it. Equally, Bolt and Shield are free spells every army has access to. I could argue that they are pretty boring, but I won't because that's ridiculous. I feel there's a portion of anti-vortex people who are just feeling a bit miffed that they didn't realise it existed until after they had it played against them and/or after it went OOP. You gotta read your warscrolls people! Even the scenery ones which apparently everyone ignored for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 50 minutes ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said: Another little point that occurs here is allegiance abilities. When they were brought in, available to every alliance, for free, I'm pretty sure it was universally acclaimed as a great idea. Indeed, I think the consensus would be that they make the game better and more interesting. Plus, nobody is going to choose not to take them. Okay, so the vortex is just one option that basically any army can take. The allegiance abilities at least have variety and flavour which reflect each alliance. As has been said though, the vortex is not an automatic, you still have to cast it. Equally, Bolt and Shield are free spells every army has access to. I could argue that they are pretty boring, but I won't because that's ridiculous. I feel there's a portion of anti-vortex people who are just feeling a bit miffed that they didn't realise it existed until after they had it played against them and/or after it went OOP. You gotta read your warscrolls people! Even the scenery ones which apparently everyone ignored for some reason. It doesnt matter if it can difficult to cast. The in game OPTION to try it, (even if it is once in a hundred games you really want to do it), makes it so that every player who attempts to write an optimal list should buy it and paint it just in case. It doesnt matter if it isn't really any good. You just have to have it in an optimal list. And I dont really want to ban it, it is just my opinion that I think its boring that it is an auto include for every wizard in the game. For me it just doesnt feel right. Would I play against? Yes! ? Edit: The difference from bolt etc. would be that you need to buy it on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Quote And I dont really want to ban it, it is just my opinion that I think its boring that it is an auto include for every wizard in the game. For me it just doesnt feel right. Would I play against? Yes! ? It's not an auto-include as many wizards are purely there to cast mystic shield and don't need it and many elite wizards actually need to move to do stuff e.g. Mortarchs and Nagash. Quote Edit: The difference from bolt etc. would be that you need to buy it on ebay. Convert one/scratch build one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAAAGHdogg15 Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 16 minutes ago, Nico said: Convert one/scratch build one. Nico, thank you so much for finally being the first poster here to acknowledge this as an option. I thought everyone had their fingers in their ears and we're making lalalalala noises until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, Nico said: It's not an auto-include as many wizards are purely there to cast mystic shield and don't need it and many elite wizards actually need to move to do stuff e.g. Mortarchs and Nagash. Convert one/scratch build one. It is an auto include since it is free and makes your wizard better since he now have a option that he didnt have before even if he still chose to cast only mystic shield in 999 out of a 1000 games. ? Same with Nagash and all wizards in the game. Options has value both in AOS and in the real world. PS I dont mean come off as I am raging here. I sorry if it reads like. But I do think this point is not an opionen. Then how/if we should deal with the balewind is and I dont know the answer really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 well ultimately its not ( or should not ) going to be banned, and places which do ban it are being hypocritical. if you ban the balewind you need to ban all models not for sell on the games-workshop site as newer gamers might not be able to get their hands on the models older gamers have. regardless if you pay for them or not as it can be seen to be gaining an advantage. Energy & time might be better spent on understanding how to play against it, instead of looking on ways to ban something which to be honest, isn't that bad compared to some things in aos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAAAGHdogg15 Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 I agree it's an auto include. Indeed it should be an auto include for everyone. In fact, one of the best ways of countering a vortex is with your own vortex - have an arcane bolt off until one of you goes down. Personally, I don't see the issue with that. I don't think that's boring and can't really see how giving yourself more options could make it more boring. And don't worry Andreas, you don't sound any more raging than anyone else on the forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTheKnight Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Would be bringing 5, one for each turn be alright in a tournament? Could a wizard cast it while already on one in the following turn to get another +1 to cast/unbind or could a second wizard summon another one for himself? I think it's pretty silly honestly but guess it's up to TOs and individual groups to decide how they want to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said: I agree it's an auto include. Indeed it should be an auto include for everyone. In fact, one of the best ways of countering a vortex is with your own vortex - have an arcane bolt off until one of you goes down. Personally, I don't see the issue with that. I don't think that's boring and can't really see how giving yourself more options could make it more boring. And don't worry Andreas, you don't sound any more raging than anyone else on the forums i've done this, mage v mage battle of wits an will. its so fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 What I find interesting is that most tournaments just use mystic terrain and not the scenery warscrolls, so there's almost this allergic reaction to them. I would much prefer to play a game with the scenery warscrolls tailored to each players army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Tournaments probably do (perhaps inadvertently) use the Warscroll for Fences and Walls. Quote if you ban the balewind you need to ban all models not for sell on the games-workshop site as newer gamers might not be able to get their hands on the models older gamers have. regardless if you pay for them or not as it can be seen to be gaining an advantage. Exactly. It would be equally dubious to say that Chaos War Mammoths or Rogue Idols should be banned as they are expensive to come by. Again - these models can be converted - should be of comparable size/base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 if you ban the balewind you need to ban all models not for sell on the games-workshop site as newer gamers might not be able to get their hands on the models older gamers have. regardless if you pay for them or not as it can be seen to be gaining an advantage. Exactly. It would be equally dubious to say that Chaos War Mammoths or Rogue Idols should be banned as they are expensive to come by. Again - these models can be converted - should be of comparable size/base. I can't afford to buy a bonesplittas army or have time to paint it if I did so it should be banned as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 12 hours ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said: Nico, thank you so much for finally being the first poster here to acknowledge this as an option. I thought everyone had their fingers in their ears and we're making lalalalala noises until now. The only issue with this is you would need to use the official model at the GW events. Hopefully this is something they are more forgiving on if the Balewind Vortex is once again allowed in their tournaments (they ruled after round 2 it was not usable for the rest of the event). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Good point about official models and conversions - they are less strict if there's no ambiguity and it's not a special character. They didn't rule that it was banned during the tournament - I have an email from John Bracken confirming that they did not ban it during the tournament. A false rumour circulated that they had done, which is unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Pike Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 14 minutes ago, Nico said: Good point about official models and conversions - they are less strict if there's no ambiguity and it's not a special character. They didn't rule that it was banned during the tournament - I have an email from John Bracken confirming that they did not ban it during the tournament. A false rumour circulated that they had done, which is unfortunate. Unfortunately it came from some of the officials at the event so I think there must have been some confusion as it was a no no after round 2. Different people were given different rulings on a number of things at the event, they must have had hundreds of questions so I understand why they may have given 2 different answers to some. I was told models had to be armed exactly how they appear on the scroll/kit with regards to Warpfire Projectors and Stormfiend weapons. Yet another player at the event was told they could mix and match weapons and use them as a pair of Warpfire Projectors, even though they had a Projector and a Doomfist for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAAAGHdogg15 Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 So if I may be as bold as to summarise this thread so far, it seems to me (unexpectedly) that far more people are in favour of vortexes, or at least don't want to see them banned from tournaments, than there are people who have written them off as broken filth. I appreciate the caviat some players have, that they would like to see some comped rules or introduce some kind of cost (points or otherwise). I wouldn't be against this per say but, along with one or two others on here, I personally don't think it's necessary. The OOP argument is also a strong one but so is the counter argument of converting/scratch building. In some ways, I'm inclined to think this would be the way to go since, for some of the larger wizard models, the current vortex model is not fit for purpose. I might even have a go myself at building something a little sturdier so that I don't have kittens every time someone walks past a precariously perched Alarielle! Thanks for all replies so far. I even think we've kept it civil for the most part. Not a full blooded rant to be found! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Add my voice to a points cost for it. Just seems the best way to keep it an interesting option rather than auto includes. Auto includes are boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Quote I might even have a go myself at building something a little sturdier so that I don't have kittens every time someone walks past a precariously perched Alarielle! Given how other people's models are insanely well painted and how clumsy I and some other wargamers are - most people just put the model to the side. I suppose you could use blu tac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I do think a good comp is to limit it to non behemoths. They look stupid up there anyway. Interesting thought I had, would anyone have been so bothered if instead of a piece of scenery it was just as spell that had the same effect? I doubt it. It would be no different than gaining a free spell from an Allegiance Lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrorPenguin Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 22 minutes ago, Carnelian said: Add my voice to a points cost for it. Just seems the best way to keep it an interesting option rather than auto includes. Auto includes are boring +1, points would be the easiest way to fix this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolden Spoons Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Khorne Bloodbound don't benefit and struggle to pop the wizard off the top. Sad times. Do Clan Pestilens get wizards? Despite that, and the push out move I don't think I'm against it, just agree with the boring tag as pretty much every army with wizards has to take them. What we need instead is more similar style pieces so you have to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said: I do think a good comp is to limit it to non behemoths. They look stupid up there anyway. Interesting thought I had, would anyone have been so bothered if instead of a piece of scenery it was just as spell that had the same effect? I doubt it. It would be no different than gaining a free spell from an Allegiance Lore. i agree on the behemoths thing. ive comp'd it further but yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossMHoward Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Wolden Spoons said: Khorne Bloodbound don't benefit and struggle to pop the wizard off the top. Sad times. Do Clan Pestilens get wizards? Despite that, and the push out move I don't think I'm against it, just agree with the boring tag as pretty much every army with wizards has to take them. What we need instead is more similar style pieces so you have to choose. Agreed buddy! Some kind of Khornate Altar to extend the range of Slaughterpriest or Bloodsecrator abilities. Or something for undead to increase the amount of models they can heal back to a unit. There's a whole lot of untapped potential with scenery rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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