AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[JackStreicher]

Oh my god, I am such a baboon.

I‘ve never used the corsairs Skilled swashbucklers rule. Boy those guys are REALLY solid!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So, I have been thinking about list building in the new book for a while now. This is my current thinking, I am curious what you guys think about it:

In my opinion, the new Cities battletome rewards neither goodstuff lists (just putting all the best warscrolls into a list) nor skew lists (going all-in on one type of unit/strategy). But it does reward balanced with a focus on a specific theme.

What I would look to here as sign posts are the battle tactics. Just a quick refresher so that everyone is on the same page:

Spoiler

Bring Full Arms to Bear: Destroy an enemy unit that was suppressed in that turn.

Raise the Banner: Take an objective from your opponent with a COMMAND SQUAD.

Blackpowder Bombardment: Destroy 3 units in the shooting phase.

Mount the Charge: Take an objective from your opponent by contesting it with units that charged that turn.

Strike Without Warning: Charge with 3 AELF units.

Iron Might: Fight with 3 DUARDIN units and don't lose any DUARDIN units.

Right away, if you build a skew list, you won't be able to do ~3 of these battle tactics. If you go all-in on Fusiliers (60 Fusiliers with support), you likely won't be able to do Mount the Charge, Strike without Warning or Iron Might. But a goodstuff list with just a little bit of shooting, some bodies, some highly moblie units, a few elves and dwarves etc. probably won't be able to do stuff like Blackpowder Bombardment or the AELF/DUARDIN tactics, either. If you bring just three DUARDIN or AELF units, you are just one shooting phase away from having only 2 of those units and being locked out of your battle tactic. If you only bring 20 Fusiliers you won't complete Blackpowder Bombardment ever.

In general, I think the book contains a lot of strong power pairs: Fusiliers+Alchemite, Cavaliers+Marshall, Darkling Covens dudes+Sorceress, Runelord+Hammerers... And what is nice is that you can run those power pairs at nearly full strength independently of your list. Fusiliers are already pretty good as just 20 with the Alchemite, same with 5 Cavaliers and the Marshall. You can make them significantly better with command traits and your city allegiance (Fusiliers shoot a good bit harder with Master of Ballistics, the Alchemite casts much more dependably in Hallowheart/Settler's Gain, the Cavaliers are much more likely to get that turn 1 charge in Misthavn...), but even without that extra investment these unit combinations will do work.

To me, that pushes me into a certain mindset when building lists:

1. Put in some of the dependable power pairs. In my case, I'd go with Fusiliers and Cavaliers. This enables Bring Full Arms to Bear.
2. Put in the Command Corps for Raise the Banner and that 4+ win the game ability. With screens, that should be about 1000 points.
3. Decide on your list focus and what other 1-2 battle tactics you would like to be able to do. Spend the remaining 1000 points on that.

I think given what battle tactics and orders suggest, a Cities list that cannot both shoot and charge is playing at a disadvantage. The counter charge and suppressive fire orders are both very potent. And battle tactics are in no small part tied to shooting and charging.

Also, I think Cities wants to naturally go high drops. Orders are important enough that running lots of heroes is more valuable than the one drop. Having two orders at once is especially valuable (+3" move plus a second thing). MSU also helps with the Banners Held High grand strategy, which is probably the most dependable one in the new book if you build your list for it. Extra enhancements can be spent on one of our nice-to-have book artefacts or arcane tome, but if you are running a Battlemage an extra lore spell might actually be quite tempting, too.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

 

Quite interesting video if a tad bit long, the best part is the 2000pts sample lists they give at the end. 

[JackStreicher]

17 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

 

Quite interesting video if a tad bit long, the best part is the 2000pts sample lists they give at the end. 

True! Imo they overvalue the Fusiliers though. Apart from that it’s goid

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

snip

I wonder, could you maybe complete one of the shooty ones with Lumineth allies ?

The Starshard Ballista is pretty solid piece of artillery, and is cheap enough at 120 pts to take 3. Certainly much more reliable dmg output than our overcosted, 24" cannons that hit on 4+.

Due to all the buffs be it spells or abilities now being VERY keyword specific you cant really buff them, but on the other hand their warscrolls are solid as they are so not much buffing is needed.

Looking at the Keywords, those are AELFs as well, and those units are certainly able to snipe some chaff, or lone small heroes and THANKFULLY those 2 battle tactics dont force the "Cities of Sigmar Aelf" or any other specification on you (I already feel the Battle tactics are dictating the army setup way to much as is).

What do you think ?

[The Lost Sigmarite]

47 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

The Starshard Ballista is pretty solid piece of artillery, and is cheap enough at 120 pts to take 3. Certainly much more reliable dmg output than our overcosted, 24" cannons that hit on 4+.

If the cannon costed 120 pts it would see a lot more use imo

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

48 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

I wonder, could you maybe complete one of the shooty ones with Lumineth allies ?

The Starshard Ballista is pretty solid piece of artillery, and is cheap enough at 120 pts to take 3. Certainly much more reliable dmg output than our overcosted, 24" cannons that hit on 4+.

Due to all the buffs be it spells or abilities now being VERY keyword specific you cant really buff them, but on the other hand their warscrolls are solid as they are so not much buffing is needed.

Looking at the Keywords, those are AELFs as well, and those units are certainly able to snipe some chaff, or lone small heroes and THANKFULLY those 2 battle tactics dont force the "Cities of Sigmar Aelf" or any other specification on you (I already feel the Battle tactics are dictating the army setup way to much as is).

What do you think ?

The more shooting you have, the higher the chance that you will get to shoot 3 units off the table in one of the later rounds. Both Lumineth and Kharadron allies can help a lot here, in my opinion.

1 minute ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

If the cannon costed 120 pts it would see a lot more use imo

I think the cannon and Warhulk will probably go down in points eventually. Right now they are not worth it from a pure efficiency standpoint, I think. The cannon is kinda just worse shooting that the fusiliers, and the warhulk just doesn't bring anything super good to the table. If they both drop a bit, though, then taking them in the Castellite Formation becomes more attractive.

The Warhulk can come down quite a bit, in my opinion. I think the GW point algorithm kinda screws him over, because it makes you overpay for that Ogor body and melee profile you never want to use. Also his buff is not that good. His 1d6" attack range increase is just not good enough at 150 points if you could get Zenestra instead.

[Myrdin]

Yeah the Ogor is a bad deal. Its a hybrid unit that excels at nothing.

The combat potential is low. It needs at least 4 attacks to be considered viable. It has 8 wounds which is pointless coz its a single model not dedicated to combat. The shooting is meh as well, and the buff is a janky meh. In general its very mediocre unit.

I could see them being decent if they costed around 110 and have less wounds but you could bring them in units of 1-3, like scourge runners.

But then that ability is still janky as all hell. Maybe if it increased range of any missile attacks by any CoS units, not just CASTELITE (nothing tells you "buy more of our new kit like all the Castelite focus in the book forcing a VERY boring gamestyle), an argument could be made.

And dont get me started on the whole "Fortified Positions" gimmick. Thats such a pointless nonsense rule that changes nothing and just increases the cost of the unit and takes away slot for some more useful ability.

 

Speaking of range, the Huntsman unit is just.... ugh, its supposed to replace Shadow warriors, but ****** are they bad. More expensive than SW, much worse shooting, with 4+ 4+, same for melee and you are forced to exchange models for dogs which dont really add much, thus loosing even more shots. If they at least had one of the values set to 3+, either To Hit or To Wound, but both being 4+ for 140 polints and that type of unit is just not worth it.

Their ability is pretty underwhelming as well when compared to SW who could just deploy whereever they wanted as long as requirements were met.

Thats why I said this book feels like a nerf, coz compared to what we lost we gained just bunch of janky, less reliable, overcosted meh.

Zenestra, Alchemite and some of the other Heroes are the only pure win units, but even then, Alchemite is slow as hell so while great for it, he is compatible only with standing castle walls builds, not fast cavalry ones.

Compared to the freedom we had previously this book feels much more constrictive and much less fun.
"Just buy 60 fusiliers, couple of buff pieces, stand and shoot" is the feel it gives me. Like the Old World Dwarfs. And that army wasnt exactly thrilling to play with or against.

*and this is a nitpick but dont get me started on the fact CoS technologically degraded. We lost matchlock riflemen and got handcannons instead. Yeah thats a downgrade in terms of tech tree*

Edited August 28, 2023 by Myrdin

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

31 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

But then that ability is still janky as all hell. Maybe if it increased range of any missile attacks by any CoS units, not just human (and definitely not just Fussiliers), an argument could be made.

I could see myself using him if he had +6" shooting range, but not d6". His Crack Shot ability by itself is just not good enough. I'd rather run a Freeguild Marshall right now for the free command points if I need an extra hero next to a Fusilier block for some reason.

 

35 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Thas why I said this book feels like a nerf, coz compared to what we lost we gained just bunch of janky, less reliable, overcosted meh.

I think the old book was dominated by its coalition mechanics and running mostly Cities of Sigmar units was rarely the best choice, which is why I prefer the current book. Also, hard disagree with units being overcosted or unreliable. There are a few duds (Warhulk and Wildercorps are two units that I agree are not really worth it), but the majority of the book is really solid.

41 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Alchemite is slow as hell so he is compatible only with standing castle walls builds, not fast cavalry ones.

I don't know. The guy doesn't want to get into melee, so you can just run him every turn, and his bubbles are 12" wholly within. Running him up with a bunch of steam tanks or cavaliers seems doable to me.

 

42 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Compared to the freedom we had previously this book feels much more constrictive and much less fun.
"Just buy 60 fusiliers, buff pieces, stand and shoot" is the feel it gives me.

I think 60 Fusiliers are a total trap. Not even close to the best list. The book reads like 60 shooty bois would be good at first glance, but if you go that route then that's something like a 1200 point investment at least, plus your command trait and subfaction and it all hinges on a 6 wound buff hero getting their spell off. Better hope your opponent is not good at unbinding or taking out small heroes at range.

Having 20-30 fusiliers as just one threat among many is way more consistent (and more fun for everyone involved) in my opinion.

48 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

*and this is a nitpick but dont get me started on the fact CoS technologically degraded. We lost matchlock riflemen and got handcannons instead. Yeah thats a downgrade in terms of tech tree*

I used to feel like that, but thinking of the handcannons as actual miniature cannons that the Fusiliers place on their portable battlements has brought me around on them. It's not that the cities can't make matchlock rifles anymore, they have just gone all-in on that slightly ridiculous walking castle idea. Yeah, it doesn't really make sense in reality, but I can excuse unrealistic swords and axes in fantasy contexts, so personally I am willing to do the same with guns.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

think 60 Fusiliers are a total trap

I wholeheartedly agree.
 

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Having 20-30 fusiliers

Indeed. There might be spice in 2x20 (legt flank and right flank). It’s just hard to buff them well enough.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Having 20-30 fusiliers as just one threat among many is way more consistent (and more fun for everyone involved) in my opinion.

People shouldn't see Fusiliers as this kind of ominous threat to everything on the board that will magically win you games if you spam them enough. They're just here to shoot some models of the board and score battle tactics, and honestly that's enough.

Edited August 28, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

Indeed. There might be spice in 2x20 (legt flank and right flank). It’s just hard to buff them well enough.

I meant to write that in my big post earlier today, but I think that this is by design to push players into mixed arms lists. A lot of the power pairs in this book rely on spells or heroic actions: Stuff that you can only do once on your turn and can't spam.

You can get easily get a unit of Fusiliers at near-peak performance with just the Alchemite buff and All-Out Attack. But if you want to do another Fusilier unit that does the same thing again, the work and resources that go into that are much larger. You need to go Greywater if you want to buff two units in the shooting phase. And you need to fit both Fusilier blocks into the same 12" alchemite bubble, which buries a lot of your list's points in the same 12" circle, probably in your back line. You can't have the two blocks sit on different objectives.

Same with Cavaliers: You can do that cool once-per-game charge order, +3 to charge, strikes first combo with just 5 Cavaliers and the Marshall. But you need to use Finest Hour on the Marshal to do it, which means at most one of your Cavalier units is doing it turn one. If you bring more Cavalier units, that's not necessarily bad because they can also do other stuff. But it makes it so that the completely brain dead alpha strike list is not possible.

That's why I think mixed arms is so good. You can have several of the really potent combos in the same list no problem. Run that cavalier combo, and the Fusiliers, and 30 Steelhelms plus Marshall, and a Steam Tank plus Tank Commander. They are all still basically at nearly full potential. But if you include a second Fusilier block that either leads to questionable list building (shooting death star) or the second unit strongly underperforms because it doesn't get its most crucial buffs.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

People shouldn't see Fusiliers as this kind of ominous threat to everything on the board that will magically win you games if you spam them enough. They're just here to shoot some models of the board and score battle tactics, and honestly that's enough.

It's the post Lumineth Sentinel bias, where shooting castles were (for a while) actually the best lists. I don't think they are in this book, though.

[Shoshuro]

I played Warhammer battle 15 years ago and plan to come back to the hobby with CoS (i preordered).

I read the rules but have no experience of AoS so i tried to read / watch everything i could (like this entire thread) to understand what army i should build with them.

Even if i usually care about style and lore or building an army around a cool idea, in the end its important to me to make a list that is competitive.

I want to play humans, not elfs or dwarfs. I like the idea of humans with technology fighting gods, beasts, demons etc.

I like magic, making a polyvalent team, those new artilery units and tanks.

I don't know what city i should use, i want to paint my army with a city theme that i will not regret.

Greywater seems like an obvious choice ? Its thematic and i can all out attack with Fusiliers, then with my tank hero that gives me a third free all out attack for the other tank ? I did 3 command action for free and can use my command points for something else.

Or maybe a magic subfaction ? Passing those two spells seem pretty important, i did read those extra primal rules but i heard the meta is spell heavy with some extra spell dice. Maybe my alchemist spells will be dispelled all the time making my fusiliers not so great ?

Here is my list for now :

Greywater city

Tank commander (270) + 1 tank (230)
Zynestra (170)
Alchemist (90)
Alchemist (90)
Battlemage with Pha's protection (100)
Marshall cavalier (120) + 5 cavalier (180)

Fusillier ×3 (450)
Steelhelm x2 (200)

Total 1900 points.

I have 100 points for more steelhelm maybe or remove an alchemist or battlemage for the Freeguild command corp ( i read here that it can help scoring some strategy and that a chance of countering a command is strong).

What do you think ? I don't really know what other armies do yet, or those special tournament rules.

Tanks take 1/4 of my points (nice since it mean less to paint). I see some nice comments from content creators talking about them but at the end they seem to imply they are more of a meme and not really viable

I played Warhammer battle 15 years ago and plan to come back to the hobby with CoS (i preordered).

I read the rules but have no experience of AoS so i tried to read / watch everything i could to understand what army i should build with them.

Even if i usually care about style and lore or building an army around a cool idea, in the end its important to me to make a list that is competitive.

I want to play humans, not elfs or dwarfs. I like the idea of humans with technology fighting gods, beasts, demons etc.

I like magic, making a polyvalent team, those new artilery units and tanks.

I don't know what city i should use, i want to paint my army with a city theme that i will not regret.

Greywater seems like an obvious choice ? Its thematic and i can all out attack with Fusiliers, then with my tank hero that gives me a third free all out attack for the other tank ? I did 3 command action for free and can use my command points for something else.

Or maybe a magic subfaction ? Passing those two spells seem pretty important, i did read those extra primal rules but i heard the meta is spell heavy with some extra spell dice. Maybe my alchemist spells will be dispelled all the time making my fusiliers not so great ?

Here is my list for now :

Greywater city

Tank commander (270) + 1 tank (230)
Zynestra (170)
Alchemist (90)
Alchemist (90)
Battlemage with Pha's protection (100)
Marshall cavalier (120) + 5 cavalier (180)

Fusillier ×3 (450)
Steelhelm x2 (200)

Total 1900 points.

I have 100 points for more steelhelm maybe or remove an alchemist or battlemage for the Freeguild command corp ( i read here that it can help scoring some strategy and that a chance of countering a command is strong).

What do you think ? Are those 3 threats (buffed fusiliers + buff tanks + cavalier) enough to win games ? I don't really know what other armies do yet, or those special tournament rules.

Tanks take 1/4 of my points (nice since it mean less to paint). I see some nice comments from content creators talking about them but at the end they seem to imply they are more of a meme and not really viable.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Shoshuro

[JackStreicher]

@Shoshuro If I were you I‘d wait a few weeks and play with proxies in the meantime, so you can get a feeling for the army (it‘ll take weeks anyways for the new models to be released).

Keep in mind that some unit points will change a lot.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Shoshuro said:

I played Warhammer battle 15 years ago and plan to come back to the hobby with CoS (i preordered).

I read the rules but have no experience of AoS so i tried to read / watch everything i could (like this entire thread) to understand what army i should build with them.

Even if i usually care about style and lore or building an army around a cool idea, in the end its important to me to make a list that is competitive.

I want to play humans, not elfs or dwarfs. I like the idea of humans with technology fighting gods, beasts, demons etc.

I like magic, making a polyvalent team, those new artilery units and tanks.

I don't know what city i should use, i want to paint my army with a city theme that i will not regret.

Greywater seems like an obvious choice ? Its thematic and i can all out attack with Fusiliers, then with my tank hero that gives me a third free all out attack for the other tank ? I did 3 command action for free and can use my command points for something else.

Or maybe a magic subfaction ? Passing those two spells seem pretty important, i did read those extra primal rules but i heard the meta is spell heavy with some extra spell dice. Maybe my alchemist spells will be dispelled all the time making my fusiliers not so great ?

Here is my list for now :

Greywater city

Tank commander (270) + 1 tank (230)
Zynestra (170)
Alchemist (90)
Alchemist (90)
Battlemage with Pha's protection (100)
Marshall cavalier (120) + 5 cavalier (180)

Fusillier ×3 (450)
Steelhelm x2 (200)

Total 1900 points.

I have 100 points for more steelhelm maybe or remove an alchemist or battlemage for the Freeguild command corp ( i read here that it can help scoring some strategy and that a chance of countering a command is strong).

What do you think ? I don't really know what other armies do yet, or those special tournament rules.

Tanks take 1/4 of my points (nice since it mean less to paint). I see some nice comments from content creators talking about them but at the end they seem to imply they are more of a meme and not really viable

I played Warhammer battle 15 years ago and plan to come back to the hobby with CoS (i preordered).

I read the rules but have no experience of AoS so i tried to read / watch everything i could to understand what army i should build with them.

Even if i usually care about style and lore or building an army around a cool idea, in the end its important to me to make a list that is competitive.

I want to play humans, not elfs or dwarfs. I like the idea of humans with technology fighting gods, beasts, demons etc.

I like magic, making a polyvalent team, those new artilery units and tanks.

I don't know what city i should use, i want to paint my army with a city theme that i will not regret.

Greywater seems like an obvious choice ? Its thematic and i can all out attack with Fusiliers, then with my tank hero that gives me a third free all out attack for the other tank ? I did 3 command action for free and can use my command points for something else.

Or maybe a magic subfaction ? Passing those two spells seem pretty important, i did read those extra primal rules but i heard the meta is spell heavy with some extra spell dice. Maybe my alchemist spells will be dispelled all the time making my fusiliers not so great ?

Here is my list for now :

Greywater city

Tank commander (270) + 1 tank (230)
Zynestra (170)
Alchemist (90)
Alchemist (90)
Battlemage with Pha's protection (100)
Marshall cavalier (120) + 5 cavalier (180)

Fusillier ×3 (450)
Steelhelm x2 (200)

Total 1900 points.

I have 100 points for more steelhelm maybe or remove an alchemist or battlemage for the Freeguild command corp ( i read here that it can help scoring some strategy and that a chance of countering a command is strong).

What do you think ? Are those 3 threats (buffed fusiliers + buff tanks + cavalier) enough to win games ? I don't really know what other armies do yet, or those special tournament rules.

Tanks take 1/4 of my points (nice since it mean less to paint). I see some nice comments from content creators talking about them but at the end they seem to imply they are more of a meme and not really viable.

Glad you are back into Warhammer. 

That's a really enthusiastic plan you have for your reentry into the hobby. However, I would suggest you start at 1000 pts first before you go up to 2k. You're going headfirst into AoS after a long period of being away, I think getting back into it by playing large games is maybe not the best way. Play at 600 pts with your army set, familiarise with the ruleset (it's really, really different from WFB), go up to 1k, then 2k.

[Shoshuro]

@JackStreicher

I don't think people will like it if i play with proxies but i will try to ask. Or maybe by this time i'll find some content about competitive lists.

@The Lost Sigmarite

Thanks ! I know what i'm getting into and read most of the new rules, they seem easier and less punitive than WFB that i played as a teenager. Yes i'll try to make some game along the way and learn more about the game.

At first i will paint the preorder set, then add Pontifex and some fusiliers since i have no doubt i'll want them in the army. So i can play my first games with 1000 pt. Then go later to 2000.

What do you think about CoS at 1000 points ? I feel like those buffs and synergies would be underwelming with fewer units.

[Lord Krungharr]

I think I'll be using the Pontifex without ANY humans at all.  Was gonna put Flagellants around it, but wow they're terrible.  Just gonna put my 20 Corsairs as the entourage and screen.  Good to have a skilled Priest...though it begs the question can the Pontifex take a generic Prayer from the GHB set?  And would it know Mordraa's Prayer in Lethis?  Guess the Pontifex could just be a Fleetmaster, or maybe I'll put it on a Black Dragon.  Magnets on the feet or crotch for sure.  

[The Lost Sigmarite]

16 hours ago, Shoshuro said:

What do you think about CoS at 1000 points ? I feel like those buffs and synergies would be underwelming with fewer units.

Yeah but it's the same for every other army, so it evens the playing field. 

Also be careful, Pontifex + 20 Fusiliers is 450 pts, it's problematic because you exceed 1000 pts with this + starter content. I feel like Pontifex, just like the Command Corps, is something you buy for teching to 2000 pts, not before.

Edited August 29, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 hours ago, Shoshuro said:

I played Warhammer battle 15 years ago and plan to come back to the hobby with CoS (i preordered).

I read the rules but have no experience of AoS so i tried to read / watch everything i could (like this entire thread) to understand what army i should build with them.

Even if i usually care about style and lore or building an army around a cool idea, in the end its important to me to make a list that is competitive.

I want to play humans, not elfs or dwarfs. I like the idea of humans with technology fighting gods, beasts, demons etc.

I like magic, making a polyvalent team, those new artilery units and tanks.

I don't know what city i should use, i want to paint my army with a city theme that i will not regret.

Greywater seems like an obvious choice ? Its thematic and i can all out attack with Fusiliers, then with my tank hero that gives me a third free all out attack for the other tank ? I did 3 command action for free and can use my command points for something else.

Or maybe a magic subfaction ? Passing those two spells seem pretty important, i did read those extra primal rules but i heard the meta is spell heavy with some extra spell dice. Maybe my alchemist spells will be dispelled all the time making my fusiliers not so great ?

Here is my list for now :

Greywater city

Tank commander (270) + 1 tank (230)
Zynestra (170)
Alchemist (90)
Alchemist (90)
Battlemage with Pha's protection (100)
Marshall cavalier (120) + 5 cavalier (180)

Fusillier ×3 (450)
Steelhelm x2 (200)

Total 1900 points.

I have 100 points for more steelhelm maybe or remove an alchemist or battlemage for the Freeguild command corp ( i read here that it can help scoring some strategy and that a chance of countering a command is strong).

What do you think ? I don't really know what other armies do yet, or those special tournament rules.

Tanks take 1/4 of my points (nice since it mean less to paint). I see some nice comments from content creators talking about them but at the end they seem to imply they are more of a meme and not really viable

Hey, welcome back to the hobby.

Just a few opinions:

Greywater is a solid subfaction. You could do a lot worse as a base line than to get a bunch of free command points in your shooting phase.

Going with one of the magic subfactions is not bad, either. Settler's Gain is the boring, but dependable +1 to cast option. I would say it's worth thinking about a Lumineth hero ally if you go with it. Hallowheart is the other option. +1d6 to cast is a massive bonus, but your mages will burn themselves out in this subfaction. About 2/3 chance to take 1d3 mortals on every cast. It makes casting extremely dependable, though, especially if you factor in enemy unbinds. Your is diverse enough that you don't 100% have to get the Alchemite spell off, though, so the choice is really up to you.

Whether you have to worry about the current magic meta depends on what everyone around you plays. In a vacuum, I would say don't list build around seasonal rules too much. Chances are, we will be out of the wizard season before you really get all your list together and painted, anyway.

I have previously said in this thread that I think a Steam Tank + Commander pair is pretty good. They are definitely very playable in casual games (not sure if they are good enough to make top cut in competitive, but the 2+ save alone is worth seriously considering). I used to run a bunch of Steam Tanks in the old book. The Commander was solid even then, and it only got better in almost every way this book. Just make sure you don't play them only as mobile artilery, they need to get into combat and tank if you want them to be worth their points

[Myrdin]

58 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The Commander was solid even then, and it only got better in almost every way this book. Just make sure you don't play them only as mobile artilery, they need to get into combat and tank if you want them to be worth their points

Thats very true. One small step improvement in each book, until finally the degradation table is completely gone and a TANK has the armor save one would expect from a unit called a TANK xd.

Great point about the moving artillery, well worth keeping in mind. They should be able to soak a lot of punishment now as long as no mortal wounds are being directed their way en masse.

***

Sticking with the mechanized army theme, I think Copters and Bombers are still pretty decent. Bombers feel a bit too pricey but that shooting should be able to clear chaff and then fly over something engaged into combat with your STanks.

Copters got nerfed quite badly with loosing 4" of movement and rend on the Steam gun, Not a fan of that. Though their combat got slightly better and they gained 3+ Save instead of 4+. Odd, but workable, though being slower sucks since we also lost all other light cav and backfield deployment pieces, nor can we incorporate SCE allies as part of the army anymore.

But 1 or 2 of them might still be able to find a place in almost any list.

 

Edit: Actually looking at the bomber, in the old book and the new one, it got substantial buff. +1A and +1 damage for its shooting, wile loosing only 2" range. Improved save to 3+ while also getting the more reliable combat attacks. No more D3.

Still a tad bit pricey for a single model piece but I think their power is one of those that grows multiplicatively with numbers. To bad you cant take them in units and even worse Hurricanum buff is now restricted to HUMANS only. But still worth considering as a flanking unit.

*Nitpick: Kinda ironic how HUMANS are made to be the focus of this book, yet the majority remaining fun choices (not necessarily good, just fun) options lie with the non human factions of Cities.*

Edited August 29, 2023 by Myrdin

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Thats very true. One small step improvement in each book, until finally the degradation table is completely gone and a TANK has the armor save one would expect from a unit called a TANK xd.

Great point about the moving artillery, well worth keeping in mind. They should be able to soak a lot of punishment now as long as no mortal wounds are being directed their way en masse.

***

Sticking with the mechanized army theme, I think Copters and Bombers are still pretty decent. Bombers feel a bit too pricey but that shooting should be able to clear chaff and then fly over something engaged into combat with your STanks.

Copters got nerfed quite badly with loosing 4" of movement and rend on the Steam gun, Not a fan of that. Though their combat got slightly better and they gained 3+ Save instead of 4+. Odd, but workable, though being slower sucks since we also lost all other light cav and backfield deployment pieces, nor can we incorporate SCE allies as part of the army anymore.

But 1 or 2 of them might still be able to find a place in almost any list.

 

Edit: Actually looking at the bomber, in the old book and the new one, it got substantial buff. +1A and +1 damage for its shooting, wile loosing only 2" range. Improved save to 3+ while also getting the more reliable combat attacks. No more D3.

Still a tad bit pricey for a single model piece but I think their power is one of those that grows multiplicatively with numbers. To bad you cant take them in units and even worse Hurricanum buff is now restricted to HUMANS only. But still worth considering as a flanking unit.

I have one Gyrocopter and have been thinking about what to do with it. I still like it at base line: A cheap fast, flying unit that shoots a bit and does d3 mortals once per game. I think that's a fairly useful model for 80 points. Absorb an Unleash Hell, ping a hero that is out of position, grab a point out of nowhere... All useful jobs.

It's kinda too bad that it got slower and doesn't get a champion if you run it as a single. For a unit of 3, I am kind of less in love with it. 240 is a sizable investment that I am not sure I would want to make. I'd probably just ally in a Gunhauler at that point.

The Gyrobomber is an interesting unit. It might be worth trying to spam it (if it were not for the price of the kit). I think the full Gyrobomber meme list would definitly be a headache to play against, but I think a single Gyrobomber is harder to fit into list than a Gyrocopter.

[JackStreicher]

I am surprised there's this little CoS coverage on Social Media: Barely any Battle Reports, mostly unboxing and the odd 3 painting videos.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I am surprised there's this little CoS coverage on Social Media: Barely any Battle Reports, mostly unboxing and the odd 3 painting videos.

Since we have access to the full book it feels like the faction is out, but it it's important to remember that we are actually still in the pre-pre-release periode.

[Myrdin]

Any thoughts on what base size Pontifex Zenestra will be ?

Looking at the model I dont think its neither a 120mm nor 60mm oval.

Could be 75mm as Demis, but I have a strong inkling its gonna be the 90mm one.