Primal magic cast

[Grimoriano]

Hi, the question is, if I cast with spell with an unmodified 3+5, and then I roll my primal magic dice with a 1, this last dice count as modify? Or the total count as an unmodified roll? Because if it is... soulblight can cast their spells with an unmodified 9+ very easily.

[Beliman]

The description of "Modifiers" from the Core Rules:

Quote

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. Rules that refer to an unmodified roll are referring to the dice roll after re-rolls have been made but before modifiers are applied.

The Primal Dice comes after re-rolls, so it should be an special modifier:

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Abilities that allow you to re-roll casting, unbinding or dispelling rolls must be used before primal magic dice are rolled.

But for whatever reason, Primal Dice are part of an unmodified roll:

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When a primal magic dice is rolled as part of a casting roll, on an unmodified casting roll that includes a double 6, the spell is successfully cast and cannot be unbound.

Yep, it's weird because their main description of a Modifier means that Primal Dice are exactly that, a new type of Modifier. But to be honest, their intention is clear, the wording of that rule was made because any +1 to cast would stop all Primal Miscast.

 

So, IMO, appart from Primal Miscast, Primal Dice are just modifiers.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

The description of "Modifiers" from the Core Rules:

The Primal Dice comes after re-rolls, so it should be an special modifier:

But for whatever reason, Primal Dice are part of an unmodified roll:

Yep, it's weird because their main description of a Modifier means that Primal Dice are exactly that, a new type of Modifier. But to be honest, their intention is clear, the wording of that rule was made because any +1 to cast would stop all Primal Miscast.

 

So, IMO, appart from Primal Miscast, Primal Dice are just modifiers.

I’m just wondering but has there been an faq clarifying what a double is?

because if we are still following the core rules, and this is just on a gameplay sense of if you’re partaking at an event and are playing the rules exactly as written, it would in theory mean rhat armies that make a 3d6 roll or more would never be able to get a double, as written in the core rules

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m just wondering but has there been an faq clarifying what a double is?

because if we are still following the core rules, and this is just on a gameplay sense of if you’re partaking at an event and are playing the rules exactly as written, it would in theory mean rhat armies that make a 3d6 roll or more would never be able to get a double, as written in the core rules

Maybe I missed something, but I don't find anything in the Core Rules about a double 1 (only talks about a double, that is a roll using 2D6, but has nothing to do with the result of a dice roll) and the basic miscast is an "unmodified roll of 2".

And the Primal Dice Miscast seems to have "that includes a double 1", it seems to suggest that a double 1 is part of the result, that's why it's included.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Beliman

[NinthMusketeer]

I feel as though some confusion has been caused by cutting out the first sentence of the modifier description for the core rules "Sometimes a modifier will apply to a dice roll. Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. Rules that refer..." Modifiers are not defined as being 'anything that applies after re-rolls'.

More importantly, "If you choose to use an ability to re-roll a casting, unbinding, or dispelling roll, you cannot use primal magic dice to supplement that roll." So any theoretical interaction with magic re-rolls is moot, because they cannot occur.

But going back to the original question, the important sentence is "The player can continue to roll additional primal magic dice until the caster suffers a primal miscast (below) or there are no more primal magic dice to be rolled." Because this specifically establishes that a spell can go from not being a primal miscast to becoming a primal miscast due to the addition of primal dice. A primal miscast is defined as "an unmodified casting roll that includes a double 1". Thereby:

-Playerius decides to cast a spell and rolls a 1 and a 5. They decide to roll a primal magic dice and get a 2.
-As per the above quoted rule they can continue to roll additional primal magic dice, so they decide to roll another, which is a 1, meaning the cast now has two 1s in it.
-We know from the same rule that the addition of a primal dice turn the spell into a primal miscast, so that is what happens and Playerius' wizard takes d3+3 MWs to the face.
-We also know that a primal miscast is only triggered by the results of the unmodified roll, so by extension we know that primal dice must be a part of the unmodified roll. (Put differently, if primal dice were not part of the unmodified roll, they would never trigger a primal miscast, ever.)

Does that make sense?


TL;DR - Yes, primal dice are part of the unmodified roll and yes, you can trigger abilities related to high unmodified rolls this way. While powerful, the counterbalance is the risk of a primal miscast and that whenever you get a primal dice so does the opponent, making them a guaranteed tool available for unbind attempts.

Edited July 28, 2023 by NinthMusketeer

[Beliman]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:44 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

Modifiers are not defined as being 'anything that applies after re-rolls'.

We don't have any description for modifiers appart from that. Btw, the description of the Primal Disfunction is FAQ,d and FAQs are clearly talking about Primal Dice as a modifier:

Quote

Change the first sentence of the third paragraph of the rule to:
‘When a primal magic dice modifies a casting roll, if two or more of 
the dice in the casting roll and primal magic dice are 1s, the caster 
suffers a primal miscast instead of a miscast.’

Quote

Change the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the rule to:
‘When a primal magic dice modifies a casting roll, if two or more 
of the dice in the casting roll and primal magic dice are 6s, and the 
caster did not suffer a primal miscast, the spell is successfully cast 
and cannot be unbound.’

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Beliman

[NinthMusketeer]

22 hours ago, Beliman said:

We don't have any description for modifiers appart from that. Btw, the description of the Primal Disfunction is FAQ,d and FAQs are clearly talking about Primal Dice as a modifier:

 

Ugh, so now we have Schrodinger's bonus, which both is and isn't a modifier. Wonderful /s

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

2 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Ugh, so now we have Schrodinger's bonus, which both is and isn't a modifier. Wonderful /s

Pretty much. RAW, Primal Dice are nonsensical. However, while RAI is rarely an unfraught beacon to guide by, I think the fact that they errata'd several spells (such as the Warsong bomb from Sylvaneth) to work off unmodified casting as of this season is a reasonably clear indicator that Beliman's theory that they are modifiers except for where they would trigger a Primal Miscast is the intended result (poor templating though that may be).