Glottkin's Blightkrieg charge ability while piled-in

[TOUBILOU]

Hello,
I am a nurgle player, and look forward to use the Blightkrieg ability of the Glottkin with a pack of pusgoyle blightlords or beasts of nurgle with maximum effect. The way I read it, it seems doable to activate the ability to do a charge during enemy turn, while I am already piled-in with an enemy for example to reactivate "mortal wounds on charge" effects. Is is possible?
ere are my main arguments:
-The core rules state that "In your charge phase, you can pick a friendly unit that is within 12" of an enemy unit to attempt a charge. A unit cannot attempt a charge if it ran or retreated earlier in the turn or if it is within 3" of an enemy unit".
-The core rules also state that "Contradictory effects: If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence".
-The Nurgle "Blithkrieg ability" of the Glottkin warscroll states that "You can use this command ability at the end of the enemy movement phase if this unit is within 12" of an enemy unit. The command must be issued by this unit and must be received by another friendly MAGGOTKIN OF NURGLE unit that is within 12" of an enemy unit. This unit and then the unit that received the command can attempt a charge. "

It seems that the warscroll ability should allow me to "attempt a charge" while piled-in with the ability?
Also, since core rules specify <12" and >3" for charge and Blightkrieg rule specify again <12", why wouldn it specify >3" also again if it was not possible?

Have a good day!

Toubilou

 

 

[The Red King]

I still think you can't charge when you're engaged in combat but the doombull "slaughterer's call" command ability actually does specify the unit that attempts the charge has to be outside of 3 inches of an enemy which the blightkrieg rule does not.

[NinthMusketeer]

It was one of the first 3rd ed tomes so the wording was not as well developed as it is in recent tomes. Beliman is almost certainly correct.

Perhaps more importantly, this is a situation where it is worth stepping back and thinking if it was really intended, or if it is something the units need to be effective. I think the answer to both of those is 'no'.

Edited April 4, 2023 by NinthMusketeer

[Beliman]

Imho, they don't contradict themself. You can attempt to charge in enemies phase if your unit is within 12", but any other conditional is still relevant for the charge action (Core Rules 11.0).

In other word:

1. Your unit can charge in you charge phase.
2. You can charge if your unit is within 12" of an enemy unit.
3. Your unit can't charge if it run and/or retreat in the same turn.
4. You can't charge if your unit is within 3" of any enemy unit.

This ability allows you to ignore point 1 and 2 (because the ability overides them, even if point 2 has exactly the same distance), but not point 3 or 4. As an example, some abilities let you run or move in your hero phase, but that doesn't mean that they can ignore any other conditional.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Beliman

[TOUBILOU]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

Imho, they contradict themself. You can attempt to charge in enemies phase if your unit is within 12", but any other conditional is still relevant for the charge action (Core Rules 11.0).

In other word:

1. Your unit can charge in you charge phase.
2. You can charge if your unit is within 12" of an enemy unit.
3. Your unit can't charge if it run and/or retreat in the same turn.
4. You can't charge if your unit is within 3" of any enemy unit.

This ability allows you to ignore point 1 and 2 (because the ability overides them, even if point 2 has exactly the same distance), but not point 3 or 4. As an example, some abilities let you run or move in your hero phase, but that doesn't mean that they can ignore any other conditional.

Well, I understand that other conditions are relevant to "normally" attempt a charge action , but when you read the warscroll of "Blightkrieg", it gives its own conditions it seems, which are worded in contradiction with the core rules (why else would it specify "12 inch of an enemy unit" instead of "verify normal attempting charge conditions").
If we say that "warscroll rules">"core rules", as they contradict themselves (can and cannot "attempt a charge"), then the warscroll allows me to attempt a charge if I verify its own conditions.

Also, the wording is very specific, there are no conditions in core rules for charge actions others than "The first model you move in a unit attempting a charge must finish the move within 1/2" of an enemy unit. If this is impossible, no models in the unit can make a charge move." 
Here, the aim is to "attempt a charge", which seems to be the exact action that the "Blightkrieg" ability is allowing under its conditions. The "charge move" is then done after checking the "charge move" condition which is different from the "attempt a charge" condition.
 

Edited April 3, 2023 by TOUBILOU

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, TOUBILOU said:

If we say that "warscroll rules">"core rules", as they contradict themselves (can and cannot "attempt a charge"), then the warscroll allows me to attempt a charge if I verify its own conditions.

Only if there is a direct contradiction. If an ability let you make a Normal Move in the Hero Phase, you make a normal move with all the basic conditions (the contradictory rule in this ability is that you can only make a Normal Move in the Movement Phase).

1 hour ago, TOUBILOU said:

Also, the wording is very specific, there are no conditions in core rules for charge actions others than "The first model you move in a unit attempting a charge must finish the move within 1/2" of an enemy unit. If this is impossible, no models in the unit can make a charge move." 
Here, the aim is to "attempt a charge", which seems to be the exact action that the "Blightkrieg" ability is allowing under its conditions. The "charge move" is then done after checking the "charge move" condition which is different from the "attempt a charge" condition.

That's for any unit that attempt a charge. You need a direct contradiction to ignore that.

[TOUBILOU]

53 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Only if there is a direct contradiction. If an ability let you make a Normal Move in the Hero Phase, you make a normal move with all the basic conditions (the contradictory rule in this ability is that you can only make a Normal Move in the Movement Phase).

I understand. But I still have some issue with the wording here. (Though you are probably right, I'd like to use the example you just gave, which also seems to be precisely dividing conditions for having the right to attempt a normal move and the conditions for the move being legal).

If an ability lets you make a Normal move in the hero phase, you will have to follow the "core rules" for the success conditions, but I'm not so sure about the attempting conditions as : "When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can move each model in that unit a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move characteristic shown on the unit’s warscroll. Units cannot move within 3" of enemy units when making a normal move. Units cannot make a normal move if they are within 3" of an enemy unit."

In the example you give, it is obvious that the "move condition" to see if a move is legal or not is conceptually separated from the "Unit can or cannot make a normal move".

My point, is that it seems to be similar with the "charge move" and "attempt a charge". The success condition of a charge and the conditions for attempting the charge are different, and it seems that the warscroll would contradict the given conditions for attempting. I also have a hard time asking why would they reiterate the "<12" condition" for the charge in the warscroll if it did, as you say, keep the normal "attempt a charge" conditions. What would be the point?

That said, you are probably right. Though I will try to see on the forum if they have a similar debate with, for example: having an ability allowing you to normal move in hero phase, can you do that while piled-in (to retreat)? Because based on the wording, using the ability to move inside a <3" of an enemy is illegal, but using the ability to simulate a "retreat move", is not so obviously illegal (while it should be).

Thank you!

PS: if you happen to know the name of a movement during hero phase ability, let me know it'll easier my research : )
PS2: sorry, i program a lot, I try to find semantic bugs all the time. In computer programmation, if you have a function called "attempt a charge", we don't really care if the normal conditions for calling the function are set like in the rest of the program. A call is a call x)

Edited April 3, 2023 by TOUBILOU

[Marcvs]

3 hours ago, TOUBILOU said:

would they reiterate the "<12" condition" for the charge in the warscroll if it did, as you say, keep the normal "attempt a charge" conditions. What would be the point?

they need to reiterate it because the core rule si written as follows:

"In your charge phase, you can pick a friendly unit that is within 12" of an enemy unit to attempt a charge" and here you are attempting a charge in a different phase.

 

 

[Beliman]

17 hours ago, TOUBILOU said:

My point, is that it seems to be similar with the "charge move" and "attempt a charge". The success condition of a charge and the conditions for attempting the charge are different, and it seems that the warscroll would contradict the given conditions for attempting.

I didn't consider that, but I think that's why Blightkrieg doens't allows to charge within 3"? It has only 2 conditional (within 12" and Maggotkin keyword) and that doens't contradict that you can't attempt to charge if your unit run, retreat or it's within 3" of an enemy unit.

12 hours ago, The Red King said:

I still think you can't charge when you're engaged in combat but the doombull "slaughterer's call" command ability actually does specify the unit that attempts the charge has to be outside of 3 inches of an enemy which the blightkrieg rule does not.

I don't know what to think. I've seen other out-of-phase movements and it seems that a lot of them have some conditionals like beign outside of 3" too...

[TOUBILOU]

2 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It was one of the first 3rd ed tomes so the wording was not as well developed as it is in recent tomes. Beliman is almost certainly correct.

Perhaps more importantly, this is a situation where it is worth stepping back and thinking if it was really intended, or if it is something the units need to be effective. I think the answer to both of those is 'no'.

Yeah, the way I see it is that it possible the way it is written, but may be a mistake. Though, when you see the cost and stats of the Glottkin, which are remotely the same as a GUO with a few abilities less and ONLY the blightkrieg ability more for 200 more points..., it could also make sense that they enable the ability it while piled-in.

Any case, I sent an e-mail to GW. I'll keep the post updated if I have any answer : )

[TOUBILOU]

Note: I found three similar command abilities that allow to charge during enemy turn, and they all specify the need for both <12" and >3":

Ossiarch Bonereapers "The dread Legion : Once per turn, during the enemy charge phase, after an enemy finished a charge move, you can pick 1 friendly Mortis Praetorians unit within 12" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all enemy units. That unit can attempt a charge".

Beast of chaos "Doombull's Slaughterer's Call: You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase. This unit must issue the command and the unit that receives the command must be a friendly unit within 12" of an enemy unit and more than 3" from all enemy units. That unit can attempt a charge."

Ironjaws "Mighty Destroyers : You can use this command abilitu in your hero phase. The model that issues the command must be an ironjaws model and the unit that receives the command must be an ironjaws unit. If the unit is within 12" of an enemy unit and more than 3" of all enemy units, you must attempt a charge with the unit".

For me, because it is repeated three time, the "must be more than 3" of all enemy units does not seem automatic".  While it may be an error that the Glotkin's ability did not write this one (while still specifiying 12"), it seems obvious that is is possible. (And I actually think that it was written this way by purpose, if you consider the extremely high cost of point of the Glottkin compared to the stats and to other 700pts creatures of other factions. Anyway, I hope GW will make an errata if they read my e-mail.

[Beliman]

@TOUBILOU

I really like what you are saying because it will allow all Aetheric Navigators to use their Read the Wind to allow 1 Skyvessels to make a free normal move in the Hero Phase, even if they are within 3" of range of the enemy, without using Disengage (Command ability), and allowing all embarked units to still shoot later in the turn because it's not a retreat.

That is CRAZY AND  POWERFUL.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Beliman