AoS 3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Ganigumo]

IMO the arcane tome change doesn't affect us much if at all. If Master of Magic was an option without effectively losing kruleboyz Waaagh! I might have played around with it, but giving a shaman an extra cast isn't really worth it imo.

The way they talked in the video drove me up the wall though. It sounds like they're trying to get KB TO 45%, instead of pushing them up properly in a way that might get them to around 50%. They're also worried about reducing the points any further, because it might lead to overefficient wounds, but that seems to disregard the quality of those wounds. There's nothing wrong with wound sinks as anvils, they shouldn't be taxed heavier than save anvils. Like you'd probably need 30-40 gutrippaz to even come close to 10 nurgle warriors in terms of defense.

The dirty tricks change is almost funny, I've had games where none of them were particularly good options and we're still stuck with randomly rolling.

The gutrippa change is nice, but it would have been nice to have the hero and monster restriction removed as well. They're almost certainly still bad, its just too tough to find the points to invest in them above the bare minimum.

Also we might be weaker overall after this change. One of our only top results in recent history was running skragrott who was arguably our best unit and he went up 50 points.

[Ganigumo]

Nevermind about the arcane tome thing, i missed the part where you don't get a spell lore enhancement.

I'm gonna miss the tome on my vulture.

[woolf]

right direction at least! let's just hope enough brave souls continue to play in tournaments with this book so we can keep inching forward 😂

[Ganigumo]

Toying with something a bit different, the classic KB castle often struggles to do much if given the first turn and struggles to fit into battle reg so I wanted to try building something that could apply pressure from the start.

Allegiance: Kruleboyz
- Warclan: Big Yellers
- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Skragrott, The Loonking (160)*
- Allies
Gobsprakk, The Mouth of Mork (260)
Killaboss on Corpse-Rippa Vulcha (220)*
- General
- Command Trait: Supa Sneaky
- Artefact: Vial of Manticore Venom (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (290)
Murknob with Belcha-banna (80)*
- Aspect of the Champion: Leadership of the Alpha
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (100)
- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty Hex
- Aspect of the Champion: Tunnel Master

Battleline
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (120)**

Units
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*
10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (70)

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Galletian Sharpshooters

Additional Enhancements
Aspect of the Champion

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 110
Drops: 11
 

Its very greedy, but if you need to sneaky miasma + fast 'un can throw your two vultures up the board, supa sneaky can deploy the sludgeraker and you can go for a turn 1 alpha. Hopefully skragrott and ravenak's, alongside disappearin' act can threaten screens to open up your opponents army.

Think this style of list has any chance of success? Has anyone tried something similar?

[Nixon]

Looking for a little advice here to get me going. 

I have just gotten hold of two sets of Dominion Kruleboyz. 

What should I get to bring me into a fun and playable 2000 point list. 

Im going to play matched play, but only casually. 

[zombiepiratexxx]

Mirebrutes and Snatchabosses are what you'll probably want to expand on your hero pool. Due to the limited models we have you've kind of then got everything already. 

[Ganigumo]

The only things to avoid for casual play is the sloggoth.

Sloggoth could work in a monster heavy build I guess but doesn't synergize well with the army.

Ballista is a bit sketchy but can do work vs gargants and screen in a pinch.

I highly recommend both the sludgeraker and vulture (any builds). Sludgeraker is a great hammer, and the vultures are great utility pieces.

 

[Vasshpit]

I'm still working on my force. It's been a long term and take my time project for the bog ninjas and I realize the slogg trogg doesn't have the best scroll but I'm legitimately surprised to have never seen or heard of players using them to do some nasty or dare I say "krule" tricks with coherency and our armies access to "snatch" abilities. 

[Ganigumo]

18 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I'm still working on my force. It's been a long term and take my time project for the bog ninjas and I realize the slogg trogg doesn't have the best scroll but I'm legitimately surprised to have never seen or heard of players using them to do some nasty or dare I say "krule" tricks with coherency and our armies access to "snatch" abilities. 

I don't think we have enough to make it matter maybe? The armies/units that are good at it can usually grab multiple models.

In the sloggoths case its probably just tough to fit into lists, even with the point decreases it never feels like you're bringing a lot. 

Sloggoth isnt a bad scroll either, it just doesn't fit the army. It sees play in gitz, and would probably see play in ironjawz, bonesplitterz & ogors if you could take it in them.

[Vasshpit]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I don't think we have enough to make it matter maybe? The armies/units that are good at it can usually grab multiple models.

Good point. It does irk me a bit to see models not reflect the rules or reflect them poorly. There are two grots in the howda so why is this not a two "attack" rule. There are two cages on the sludgeraker so, again, why is this a once per battle "attack"?...

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

In the sloggoths case its probably just tough to fit into lists, even with the point decreases it never feels like you're bringing a lot. 

Also good points. When Krule troggs get the gloomspite healing buff (they just have to, right? ) this will definitely help to make the unit a great screening and harrassment anvil imo. 

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Sloggoth isnt a bad scroll either, it just doesn't fit the army. It sees play in gitz, and would probably see play in ironjawz, bonesplitterz & ogors if you could take it in them.

I've always felt it's a bit underrated. Its drum buff affects itself so grots hitting on 3s and the slogg trogg on 2s are not bad. 

It does need some tweaks to buff it's actual army in a more meaningful way. If gutrippaz get -1 rend this would definitely be more beneficial. 

With how these new books have been turning out I'm super excited to see what happens going forward with kruleboyz. And my long term project will definitely be ready. ✊

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vasshpit

[woolf]

sloggoth is quite nice with mirebrute as well, had a list a while ago running 2x mirebrute and sloggoth where I felt I got value out of him

[Vasshpit]

@woolf Did you get a waaagh off with both mires!?!? Oh I bet that would be glorious to witness!!

[woolf]

Just now, Vasshpit said:

@woolf Did you get a waaagh off with both mires!?!? Oh I bet that would be glorious to witness!!

haha unfortunately not, but they did do some good hammering, had one with fastun to go after things needing a bit of bashing and kept the other one behind screen for counterpunching. I'm not very competitive player and don't get a lot of games in

[Vasshpit]

@woolf I'm the same. Best believe that'll be a great day when I make that happen though!✊

[woolf]

6 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@woolf I'm the same. Best believe that'll be a great day when I make that happen though!✊

Good ambition, should add that to my achievement objectives!

[Nixon]

Thank for the advice. 

What about Allies? Are You bringing any?

Seen a few lists with Rippas Snarlfangs in them. 

[Ganigumo]

The best allies for us in my opinion are Skragrott, and cheap fast screens. Skragrott is just fantastic value, +1 double caster, good warscroll spell, and can issue a command for free every turn. For screens stuff like spider riders or snarlfangs are good. Snarlfangs have a bit more utility and damage, but spider riders are cheaper, most of the army is really slow so having a fast unit to rush onto objectives or alpha screen is nice. The reason Rippa is showing up less now is because he's now 110 points, up from 70, which means spider riders are cheaper now.
I could see making an aleguzzler or some rockguts work too.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

3 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The best allies for us in my opinion are Skragrott, and cheap fast screens. Skragrott is just fantastic value, +1 double caster, good warscroll spell, and can issue a command for free every turn. For screens stuff like spider riders or snarlfangs are good. Snarlfangs have a bit more utility and damage, but spider riders are cheaper, most of the army is really slow so having a fast unit to rush onto objectives or alpha screen is nice. The reason Rippa is showing up less now is because he's now 110 points, up from 70, which means spider riders are cheaper now.
I could see making an aleguzzler or some rockguts work too.

Rockguts seem like good value as a genuine anvil in an army without them. Gutrippas are creeping closer to being decent at it, but so slowly that there'll probably be a new book by the time they can genuinely take a hit.

[Ganigumo]

40 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Rockguts seem like good value as a genuine anvil in an army without them. Gutrippas are creeping closer to being decent at it, but so slowly that there'll probably be a new book by the time they can genuinely take a hit.

If they don't get any meaningful warscroll changes, Gutrippaz might need to be as low as 120 points for them to be good. Anytime I listbuild with kruleboyz it never feels like there's enough points and you're constantly scrounging for what you can find, and unless gutrippaz are surviving contact with the enemy and doing something they're basically just hobgrots anyways. 
I'm curious what the situation would look like if we could get them in 5's though, then they could actually compete with hobgrots a bit.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I think with the current Gutrippaz warscroll, getting them in 5s for half the cost would be decent, if only for bodies on objectives and the ability to control a little space for cheap. What I'd love to see is them just being a straight up -1 to hit, period. If GW decides Skare Taktikz shouldn't scare heroes and monsters, call it something else, like "Shrouded in Boggy Mist" or whatever works.

[woolf]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

If they don't get any meaningful warscroll changes, Gutrippaz might need to be as low as 120 points for them to be good. Anytime I listbuild with kruleboyz it never feels like there's enough points and you're constantly scrounging for what you can find, and unless gutrippaz are surviving contact with the enemy and doing something they're basically just hobgrots anyways. 
I'm curious what the situation would look like if we could get them in 5's though, then they could actually compete with hobgrots a bit.

think we have probably discussed this here before but while I do agree with you they should have to come down to something like that to work, I can also see them becoming a problem as dealing a lot of mortals in theory if spammable (I say theory as they still struggle with delivery and cant be buffed in combat...)

ultimately scroll is just broken beyond repair between the VEW allegience ability, their paper thin armor and low mobility 🤷‍♂️

kinda wish they could just make hobgrots unconditional battleline.. or at least unlock as long as u include any unit of gutrippaz as opposed to 1 for 1

[Vasshpit]

Give rippaz +1 save (4+)

Rework the shamans elixir to a +1 attack or something else

Give them -1rend

Rework the VEW to 6s on wound

Up their movement. Seems like it should be a somewhat fast army. 

 

Edit: I dont think we'll ever see them in 5s as only one banner per kit. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Vasshpit

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I'm against increasing the Gutrippa save because it costs them differentiation from Ironjawz then. -1 to hit and/or -1 to wound is distinct. Give them a 4+ save and they're just Ard Boyz with poison (which would mean they'd need to be substantially more expensive than Ard Boyz to be balanced, on top of the thematic issues).

[Vasshpit]

@RocketPropelledGrenade 🤔 Jawz really should be 3+ imo. But that's another topic. 

Since they're rocking shields what about +1 save if they out number the attacking unit?

[Ganigumo]

Just now, Vasshpit said:

Give rippaz +1 save (4+)

Rework the shamans elixir to a +1 attack or something else

Give them -1rend

Rework the VEW to 6s on wound

Up their movement. Seems like it should be a somewhat fast army. 

VEW is just a wierd fit in general for the army IMO. Like I get that its how poison works in AoS, but the army feels like it wants to be johnny-spike, and VeW is anti-spike, since its so inconsistent.

instead of just upping their movement KB should get a bunch of movement tricks instead, like being able to be deployed inside terrain, or coming off board edges.

 

 

Just now, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

I'm against increasing the Gutrippa save because it costs them differentiation from Ironjawz then. -1 to hit and/or -1 to wound is distinct. Give them a 4+ save and they're just Ard Boyz with poison (which would mean they'd need to be substantially more expensive than Ard Boyz to be balanced, on top of the thematic issues).

The only thing that cares about the differentiation is big Waaagh! which tends to just run 3x5 'ardboyz pretty much exclusively because its the cheapest battleline in the book since it has no battleline unlocks. Also on top of that 'ardboyz are way more buffable if you want to build into them. If Gutrippaz went up to a 4+ save we'd still see 'ardboyz in big waaagh to reduce the battleline taxes. Also our book has orruks in loincloths with shields made of stone and bone with a better save than gutrippaz (5+ save + 6+ ward) who are also generally bad for similar reasons as gutrippaz, but pretty much nobody plays bonesplitterz and the army works without them so you don't see as many complaints.