AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[vinnyt]

5 hours ago, Derek said:

going first wasn’t an absolute priority for this army since you have so many ways to basically counter things like a shooting alpha strike.

it's a huge priority for all deepkin armies because being doubled just melts us and if we double someone that's basically a free win*. I cannot stress enough how much I think deepkin want to be as FEW drops as possible. 

And I can't really comment on a new dragon warscroll because I'm not a fancy insider or anything but rn they're insanely good in a shark build. But you absolutely don't need them. I think the shark list I proposed is pretty darn good. And yeah, a 2 drop is liiiikely ok. Big opponent one drops where you REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE DOUBLED are things like DoK (changes comin for them), teclis, IJ, and weird seraphon builds (thunderlizards pretty much perfectly counters sharks).

 

 

*assuming you build your army that way which I always do specifically to cheese free wins about 40% of the time. 

[Derek]

Luckily I’m the only seraphon player in my local community and most of the iron jawz players are not one drops.  Nobody around here plays teclis at least not recently anyways and DOK I have only played once with my thunderlizards and I tabled them turn 2.  So I guess I will have to take the army out and play it a couple times. My friend is showing me a 9 drop 4 kings and volturnos list that I will have to try at some point just to see how it goes.  

[Derek]

Just so I know for sure the core rules say you can take an enhancement to get an extra mount trait right?  The app is telling me I can’t take a second mount trait on a deepmare even though I took the enhancement 

[Liquidsteel]

6 hours ago, Derek said:

Just so I know for sure the core rules say you can take an enhancement to get an extra mount trait right?  The app is telling me I can’t take a second mount trait on a deepmare even though I took the enhancement 

Yes that's correct. 

My app still tells me one mount trait is too many 🙃 

[Siorra]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yes that's correct. 

My app still tells me one mount trait is too many 🙃 

The app still tells me my Tidecaster needs to take the "Protective Barrier" spell when I select the Nautilar subfaction, so I wouldn't assume it knows what's right!

[Derek]

It does the same thing for me.  So hopefully they fix it soon lol.  

[DocKeule]

This Krondspine Incarnate thing is pretty crazy. The price is hefty as well. The whole terrain kit  plus the books costs as much as about 600-1000 points of models.

But I am pretty sure this will turn up in a lot of cheese lists in the near future. 

But I am also still pretty sure the next season will take place in another realm with a different focus. And it will either come with a new GHB in June/July or in about six months with a new season book.

Edited April 6, 2022 by DocKeule

[Derek]

If it’s like 40K it’s going to be every 6 months.  I am still trying to work out how important that book is actually going to be because I have no desire to pay for terrain I can’t use since I don’t have a table and a model I will either always use or never use ( like 80% of the endless spells they said were going to be awesome and then never saw play) 

 

read the article and while it sounds cool I don’t think it’s going to be as effective as gw thinks it will be,  this will either force people to drop monsters out their list or they’ll ignore this thing in favor of the extra vp monsters give and since endless spells besides like the emerald life swarm were barely seeing the table anyways just means we won’t see them still.  

Edited April 6, 2022 by Derek

[DocKeule]

3 hours ago, Derek said:

If it’s like 40K it’s going to be every 6 months.  I am still trying to work out how important that book is actually going to be because I have no desire to pay for terrain I can’t use since I don’t have a table and a model I will either always use or never use ( like 80% of the endless spells they said were going to be awesome and then never saw play) 

Same here. I will pass on this one but I expect to see it a lot at tournaments at least until the next season starts. They have already hinted that there will be similar spells/models for other realms.

As far as how long the season will go on...we already had Gur-season since summer so no idea when they will shake things up. But the trend to extreme short term monetization worries me. 


Any way:

Just had another loss against Fyreslayers in my TTS league. The invocation's MW and the MW from sixes to hit and to wound just melted my army. In the end I had Lotann and a Tidecaster left and lost 16 : 19 because I had no tactic left to do in the last two round (my opponent also failed two) and we both did not get out strategy. 

[Derek]

What was your list @DocKeule  I have been seeing people post up games with deepkin and everyone seems to be either crushing it or getting destroyed,  and I think that’s partially due to everyone trying to still force the eel lists,  don’t get me wrong eels are great and all but I don’t think they lend themselves to the power of the book.  Time will tell but maybe with some points adjustments we will get back to a happy medium of a mixed arms list 

[DocKeule]

This is my list for the league:

Spoiler

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*
Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
- Artefact: Rune of the Surging Gloomtide
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides

Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
- Retarius Net Launcher

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 4

Just had another loss against IDK. This could have gone either way. He had a one-drop and took the first turn exposing his turtle.

I did OK with my shooting and charged the Morrsarr and two sharks in, the King close by for support. I retrospect the eels more than got the job done on their own with eight MW and the spear attacks (also wasted "lord of tides" in this). Problem was that now I was the sitting duck with a lot of my most important units.

So the initiative was deciding the game. Whoever went first would win the game. Well I lost.

[woolf]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:50 PM, DocKeule said:

This Krondspine Incarnate thing is pretty crazy. The price is hefty as well. The whole terrain kit  plus the books costs as much as about 600-1000 points of models.

But I am pretty sure this will turn up in a lot of cheese lists in the near future. 

But I am also still pretty sure the next season will take place in another realm with a different focus. And it will either come with a new GHB in June/July or in about six months with a new season

pairing this one with eidolon of sea seems pretty good since he is quite a durable hero and would benefit massively from the casting bonus

[woolf]

Ok, so was playing around a bit with lists based on the Krondspine incarnate and this is what I came up with, I think it actually looks pretty interesting with some synnergies:

Fuethan

Hold the line

Eidolon of Sea (General, Endless Sea Storm, Spell: counter current)

Soulscryer (Dritchleech, Heal)

10x Thralls

20x Thralls

10x Reavers

3x Shivers

Lifeswarm

Krondspine incarnate (linked to eidolon)

*Battle reg for 2 drop (could reinforce the thralls again to 30 for 1-drop but figured we need the MSU set up to cover board more), or perhaps drop the shivers so a shark unit could be 2x instead..

So idea is that you place thralls in deepstrike with scryer. Try to split enemy force with eidolon in between and engage one half of it with sending in Krondspine, deepstrike + shooting. Try holding off other half with counter-current / redeploy / screen with reavers/small thrall unit. List has quite a lot of healing with prayer + eidolon spell + lifeswarm and has plenty of good targets for that between krondspine/eidolon/sharks. Casting should be extremely reliable given that eidolon will have +1 and re-roll, and opponent will have up to -2 (artefact on deepstriking scryer and the krondspine if close enough). Eidolon with cmd trait should be able to chain off spells thus and (I suppose a bit depending on how FAQ lands) cast quite a number of spells.

Quite different from the usual blender king + cavalry but I think it might have some game so wanted to share. comments/improvements always welcome

Cheers

[DocKeule]

10 hours ago, woolf said:

pairing this one with eidolon of sea seems pretty good since he is quite a durable hero and would benefit massively from the casting bonus

On the other hand that would mean more than a third of your points in two models and only one of them is a fighter.

[woolf]

3 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

On the other hand that would mean more than a third of your points in two models and only one of them is a fighter.

yeah but the krondspine is plenty fighty so 725 doesn't seem too bad for that package given utility, durability and output of those combined. compared to what u would get otherwise (eg turtle + 10 thralls)

[DocKeule]

Still if anything I would combine him with an Eidolon of the Storm and get a +1 to hit and +1 to wound combo.

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, DocKeule said:

Still if anything I would combine him with an Eidolon of the Storm and get a +1 to hit and +1 to wound combo.

The Incarnate would not get the Storm's buff, as it is an ally, not an Idoneth Deepkin unit.

[DocKeule]

Yes but every unit around them would get both buffs.

[Derek]

I honestly don’t know that the incarnate is worth it’s points,   Other armies that have monsters have great monsters and that thing isn’t going to do any better into them.  

[Liquidsteel]

The Incarnate is special in that it does not die immediately, similar to say Morathi.

If something wants to attack it in melee, it will get to fight back at full profile.

It poses a different kind of threat that way.

I think it will see play.

[DocKeule]

18 minutes ago, Derek said:

I honestly don’t know that the incarnate is worth it’s points,   Other armies that have monsters have great monsters and that thing isn’t going to do any better into them.  

Pointswise I think it will be worth the cost. You get a lot of high rend and high damage attacks. It is pretty sturdy and can take a lot of wounds and even if all wounds are gone you might only be demoted one bracket. Put an 8-12" +1 to hit bubble on top of that at the potential extra victory points in battle tactics while a lot of regular monster units cost more points...

The money side however is a different story. The set is expensive even if you want the terrain (which is to few to fill a regular table). If you're not that keen on the terrain the price is just silly. 

[Derek]

I think deepkin will do fine without it.  We don’t have monsters we’re really using and there aren’t any endless spells we absolutely have to use.  I hope it doesn’t become staple of competitive play,  I think it’s cool for a narrative game cause it makes sense but this is giving me flashbacks to end of 7th Ed 40K anyone remember the teleporting terrain spell?

[Chronos]

Hey guys, I've been finishing up my King and now onto a couple Sharks before I get my first game in, hopefully this Wednesday. Let me know what you think of the list, not sure who I would be playing.
 

Quote

 

Ionrach, Hold the Line, Battle Regiment

Akhelian King, Blender Loadout w/Flaming Weapon, Voidchill Darkness, General

Lotann

6 Morsarr Guard

3 Morsarr Guard

20 Reavers

2 Allopex

2 Allopex

1950 points

Pretty straight forward, have a decent amount of shooting to engage with early on and play keep away, and then try my best to counter charge in turns two and hopefully a good one in turn three. I haven't played in probably 4 months so I'm quite rusty.

 

I'm also considering trying a flip the tides list. The trick is, in my mind, to get the Morsarr Guard to be battle line, and unless I'm mistaken taking Volturnos should accomplish that. Interested to see anyone's thoughts, considering I haven't seen much discussion around turning the tides.

Quote

This could work as Nautilar or Fuethan, all in a Battle Regiment

Tidecaster, General, Teachings of Turscoll

Akhelian King w/Flaming Weapon

Volturnos

3 Allopex or Leviathan

6 Morsarr Guard

6 Morsarr Guard

1965 or 1970 points.

 

So you're really just hitting the enemy with three big hammers and two smaller hammers turn two trying to cripple them completely. I'm not sure whether it would be smarter to go first or second in turn one, but you really have to make sure you get everything in turn two. Could possibly try and get the King and a unit of something in turn one knowing you'll have High Tide anyway turn two. Volty's ability is still pretty strong, and it ups the damage potential of 3 Sharks or 6 Eels to do around 30 damage to a 4+ or 23-24 to a 3+, not counting mortal wounds, but counting shooting from the Sharks. Realistically it will be almost impossible to get all three units withing 12" for the +1 attack, but its definitely possible to get two units plus either himself or the King, who still do decent damage.

I'll probably try it once I get Volturnos built, and also would like to try with the turtle. You lose a lot of tech and it's all or nothing but could still be fun. Taking Nautilar also gives the ability to split a Morsarr unit, or you could take three regular Allopexes in Fuethan rather than the Shiver.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Chronos
Apparently I can't upload pictures!

[Derek]

@Chronos  turtles are awesome in nautilar.  That -3 rend to the fins and jaws is clutch. Run him near the king keep the king at a 2+ save with all out defense or using his finest hour and the turtle.  I haven’t been able to get much output from the ranged shots from the turtles but those melee attacks hitting on 2’s wound on 2’s or 3’s across his entire profile is awesome.  My king has averaged 22 damage off the polearm every time he’s ran into combat.  Got a game this coming week against Kharadron overlords with my deepkin.  Not sure if I’m gonna play fuethan or nautilar into him yet 

[Chronos]

2 hours ago, Derek said:

@Chronos  turtles are awesome in nautilar.  That -3 rend to the fins and jaws is clutch. Run him near the king keep the king at a 2+ save with all out defense or using his finest hour and the turtle.  I haven’t been able to get much output from the ranged shots from the turtles but those melee attacks hitting on 2’s wound on 2’s or 3’s across his entire profile is awesome.  My king has averaged 22 damage off the polearm every time he’s ran into combat.  Got a game this coming week against Kharadron overlords with my deepkin.  Not sure if I’m gonna play fuethan or nautilar into him yet 

Yeah I'm excited to use the turtle, it'll be the next thing I paint after my two other sharks are done.

Only thing to consider is that flipping the Tides really nerfs the King's damage in comparison to not, because you need the command trait now... that really sucks, but I think the more guaranteed damage from the unit hitting turn two makes up for it.