AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Liquidsteel]

13 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

I am always a huge proponent of 1 drop deepkin armies. 

I meant the opposite actually; I've been running 1 drop but realistically the army can be quite safe whilst still threatening the opponent turn 1 thanks to the Ionrach Heroic Action. 6 Morrsarr moving 21" with +2 to charge will cause problems, but getting stomped or roar'd can cut the damage, so being in Hunters would be nice to almost guarantee 2s and 2s (via Inspired, or a teleported Lotann).

You also pick your Ritual/s after priority is determined which is a nice bonus.

[martinwolf]

2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Well I've got 40 thralls on the WIP pipeline haha.

Plan for now is to use the Ionrach ability to pull them out of combat and charge back in again. Plus they hang around near the king in case you get the chance to fight first with multiple units.

Careful, Ionrach ability is only for Akhelian units.

[martinwolf]

deleted because of double post

Edited March 14, 2022 by martinwolf
double post

[vinnyt]

@Liquidsteel sure you can use your brain and do smart things, or just reflex take one drop every time so you can try to dictate turn order for a 40% chance to just win the game. I've never lost a game where I've doubled into top of turn 3 and I don't think that changes with the new book. 

 

If you have a king nearby, the morrsarr stabby elves are already hitting on 2s without any CP required! 

Edited March 14, 2022 by vinnyt

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah possibly, but thanks to Ionrach it means your opponent, even if they out drop you, has to respect the turn 1 Morrsarr Missile if they choose to make you go first.

You can also just make it a 2 or 3 drop to have a good chance to decide anyway.

King's Aura is only 9" so wouldn't be in range with this "tactic".

We also don't really hurt for CP, seeing as there aren't any Allegiance or Warscroll Command Abilities.

1 drop is still obviously good, just I think it's not mandatory.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[vinnyt]

1 hour ago, Liquidsteel said:

King's Aura is only 9" so wouldn't be in range with this "tactic".

the tactic is engaging a target with both the king and the morrsarr unit, popping the king's ability on himself, and then saving a CP by not needing to use AoA on the Morrsarr while absolutely RINSING whatever they've engaged. 

Morrsarr missile is good, absolutely, but generally unsupported they'll kill a screen and then die. Deepkin do NOT do well being doubled into turn 2 without high tide to protect them, as your opponent will get to dictate combats and you can't pop the king's ability in your opponent's turn. If you're flipping tides, then sure, taking the first turn actually increases the chances of you getting priority into your high tide, which is fantastic. Plus deepkin artefacts are meh. Nothing really screams "warlord" battalion to me. Hunters is ok, but monstrous actions aren't that super impactful outside of thrall lists, as you can use AK aura to remove the need for AoA and turtle aura for a free AoD. Plus if you're dictating combat, then just make sure you've committed enough to kill whatever you're fighting despite the 66% chance of not being able to use CP in the combat phase. 

I imagine you'll likely use a CP for auto running, a CP for AoD, and then that's either it for the turn, or if you have spares, you can pop AoA on reavers/sharks and/or save it for the next turn where you'll want CP for redeploy and AoD (possibly battleshock/AoA but that's unlikely). 

[DocKeule]

2 hours ago, vinnyt said:

@Liquidsteel sure you can use your brain and do smart things, or just reflex take one drop every time so you can try to dictate turn order for a 40% chance to just win the game. I've never lost a game where I've doubled into top of turn 3 and I don't think that changes with the new book. 

 

If you have a king nearby, the morrsarr stabby elves are already hitting on 2s without any CP required! 

The impact of going first or second in turn one has very little impact on the turn order in the third round. Even going first in the first round only improves your chances of being able to chose in the second round by less than 3%.

I would say the main aspect is how easy you will get rid of your opponent's units on the objectives once he starts to camp there. If you likely will lose one or even two rounds of scoring going I would want to go first an get all the points I can. Otherwise I might like his units to come closer. 

But there are few armies that are unable to make contact in turn two if the player wants it.

[Derek]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/14/will-you-become-predator-or-prey-in-the-latest-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-battlescroll-update/
 

 

 

 

what do you guys think of this?   

[That Guy]

tSo uh.... https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/SeAPQtAryX4qcLM9.pdf
I might have to start rethinking those dragons and fulminators in lists. That 30 Thrall block is looking real hot right now @Derek
Also boys the Phoenix dodged the bullet. I guess from now on the phoenix is the most interesting monster ally option.  

Currently especially with our Forgotten Nightmares rules it will be tougher to justify Fulminator and Dragon allies. Although they will still perform great. Against some matchups, those units will be worth 2VP. Our allies aren't protected by Forgotten Nightmares and therefore the risk might be too great. Not saying I won't give it a shot still, since I also like those units, and I have them for the Stormcast Eternals anyways.

Edited March 14, 2022 by That Guy

[Derek]

@That Guy   I was just looking at that last night.  I thought it’d be kinda funny getting 30 thralls to a -2 to wound from the thrall master stance and the frostheart Phoenix. Only in combat but still.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by Derek

[That Guy]

3 minutes ago, Derek said:

@That Guy   I was just looking at that last night.  I thought it’d be kinda funny getting 30 thralls to a -2 to wound from the thrall master stance and the frostheart Phoenix. Only in combat but still.  

You can't debuff someone for -2 to wound although if they have buffs it counters that. Usually not worth since to wound buffs are rare in AoS.

[Derek]

Oh well still -1 to wound bubble with a Phoenix and then exploding 6’s from the thrall master is still good.    And you can also block their finest hour 

[That Guy]

4 minutes ago, Derek said:

Oh well still -1 to wound bubble with a Phoenix and then exploding 6’s from the thrall master is still good.    And you can also block their finest hour 

You can still spread your -1 bubbles. Both of the units use a bubble around them . Also know that Thrallmasters only effect units that target Namarti. If you play anything else the phoenix can protect them, because the phoenix debuffs all enemy units in range of its aura, not just the ones attacking Namarti.

[Derek]

May have to proxy it for a game or two and see how it plays out.  Might see some use in the shark army I’m building. 

[Chronos]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:26 PM, That Guy said:

Core rules 27.3.1:

Unstoppable Fury is a command trait and mounts can't benefit from those if they affect attacks. Therefore, nope only the king's weapons. Still very 500% worth and the best command trait you can take on him. Best day ever does affect the mount, it's not an enhancement. 

Thank you! I don't know if I missed that or forgot about it as I have been taking a break, but good to have it cleared up.

I'm trying to consider what the best way to start the game is turn wise in order to maximize the High Tide. It seems to me to be better to not be charging turn one unless you're going against another alpha strike army and want to take out a big target right away, but then you're open to a counter charge.

I feel like the perfect scenario is getting the double into turn 3, but that's obviously extremely unpredictable. This way you would use the King's Lord of Tides along with at least one other hammer(in my case I'm thinking 6 Morsarr Guard), and wipe out whatever you want turn 2. Then get the double and charge with everything and probably win the game.

But not getting this perfect set up, it's not the end of the world to not get turn 3 because you'll still get ASF against most of the game, and I feel like having hammers together helps mitigate the losses you'll take if you get charged turn three.

So what if you go first turn 2? You kill whatever you want with your hammers but then you get counter charged if your enemy is good. Possible lose a hammer. I feel like it might always be better to try and get the second turn in turn 2 if possible, almost always.

Against something like Ironjaws I'm not really sure the best thing to do. Strike them first or go try to find behind screens and take out a mawcrusha  bottom of turn 1 and maybe another unit or two if you get a 5-6 with the King?

I'm rambling a bit, but I did find it tough sometimes with the old book getting to turn 3 intact if I wasn't flipping tides, so I'd like to get some of your thoughts on working this out!

 

[Derek]

I think this book is going to be a fine balance of screens to hold off the very legit alpha strikes from armies like iron jawz and enough power that when you slam into your opponent in combat turn’s 2 and 3 you can ride the wave through and still win out.   This is my first time playing this army so I’m excited to see how it plays,  feels like dark eldar or eldar in 40K, glass hammer you play right you’ll win 90% of the time you mess up though and you’re done before the game has really made it to turn 2 or 3

Edited March 15, 2022 by Derek

[vinnyt]

8 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Even going first in the first round only improves your chances of being able to chose in the second round by less than 3%.

what

It's like a 60% chance that the person with priority (first turn) in any given round wins the priority roll for the next round. You just have to tie or win a single dice roll. 

[DocKeule]

True, I was wrong. The Improvement of the chance to dictate the next turn order is about 17 % since there are six possible ties.

[Liquidsteel]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:09 PM, vinnyt said:

the tactic is engaging a target with both the king and the morrsarr unit, popping the king's ability on himself, and then saving a CP by not needing to use AoA on the Morrsarr while absolutely RINSING whatever they've engaged. 

Morrsarr missile is good, absolutely, but generally unsupported they'll kill a screen and then die. Deepkin do NOT do well being doubled into turn 2 without high tide to protect them, as your opponent will get to dictate combats and you can't pop the king's ability in your opponent's turn. If you're flipping tides, then sure, taking the first turn actually increases the chances of you getting priority into your high tide, which is fantastic. Plus deepkin artefacts are meh. Nothing really screams "warlord" battalion to me. Hunters is ok, but monstrous actions aren't that super impactful outside of thrall lists, as you can use AK aura to remove the need for AoA and turtle aura for a free AoD. Plus if you're dictating combat, then just make sure you've committed enough to kill whatever you're fighting despite the 66% chance of not being able to use CP in the combat phase. 

I imagine you'll likely use a CP for auto running, a CP for AoD, and then that's either it for the turn, or if you have spares, you can pop AoA on reavers/sharks and/or save it for the next turn where you'll want CP for redeploy and AoD (possibly battleshock/AoA but that's unlikely). 

I meant the missile tactic doesn't get the King's aura. Plus I'm not trying to say that it's what you absolutely want to be doing, rather the threat of it means that an opponent may not want to give you first turn anyway, even if they out drop you. But if they don't have screens and leave a big juicy target open, it could be a play.

Regarding Warlord, the option is the extra spell. You can take Arcane Tome on the Eidolon and make him a 3 cast wizard, potentially opening up Teleport + 2 spells. Dish out some -1 to save before your Morrsarr charge in and put their scary melee unit to half charges whilst at it. With the Eidolonn and back up shooting (3-4 sharks) you should be clearing out any screens no problem.

Again, not saying it's the be all and end all of tactics, just means that even if you deploy semi defensively turn 1, your opponent will have to seriously respect your combos in deciding the turn order.

[That Guy]

Tommorrow i'll be running the following list against an OBR List, a Lumineth List and a Seraphon Thunderlizard list. The Phoenix will be mostly around the king and some sharks in order to protect them while also trying to suck in some magic power when the king casts flaming weapon. I added a tidecaster for a bit of utility and when she's in the thick of it she might even provide a source of -1 to hit. Together with the Phoenix that could be a nasty -1 to hit and wound. Namarti Thralls will travel with the Tidecaster, screening her. Sharks will hunt. For now I will run it like this and i'll see how it feels. In the future i'd like to try some 3 shark units and/or shivers. I was also contemplating Lotann, since he is amazing, but for now i'd like to try out the tidecaster. Also it's nice to have an extra source of magic to buff up the Phoenix. 

Spoiler

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness
    - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
    - Spells: Counter-current

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*

BATTLELINE

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Namarti Thralls (130)*

TERRAIN

Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

 

[Derek]

I have been talking with a friend and I think this list has some tricks to it.  Can definitely be edited to be “better” but given the damage potential from a king my thoughts are that this could do some work and can definitely be made more interesting by changing some things up maybe dropping a king for lotan and a tidecaster.

 

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Ionrach
    - Grand Strategy: Sever the Head
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)**
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Potion of Hateful Frenzy
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness

Akhelian King (250)**
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Spells: Flaming Weapon

BATTLELINE

Namarti Thralls (130)**

Namarti Thralls (130)**

Namarti Thralls (130)**

OTHER

Akhelian Allopexes (165)**
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (165)**
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Command Entourage

**Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (1970/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

[Siorra]

11 hours ago, That Guy said:

Tommorrow i'll be running the following list against an OBR List, a Lumineth List and a Seraphon Thunderlizard list. The Phoenix will be mostly around the king and some sharks in order to protect them while also trying to suck in some magic power when the king casts flaming weapon. I added a tidecaster for a bit of utility and when she's in the thick of it she might even provide a source of -1 to hit. Together with the Phoenix that could be a nasty -1 to hit and wound. Namarti Thralls will travel with the Tidecaster, screening her. Sharks will hunt. For now I will run it like this and i'll see how it feels. In the future i'd like to try some 3 shark units and/or shivers. I was also contemplating Lotann, since he is amazing, but for now i'd like to try out the tidecaster. Also it's nice to have an extra source of magic to buff up the Phoenix. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness
    - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
    - Spells: Counter-current

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*

BATTLELINE

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (165)*
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Namarti Thralls (130)*

TERRAIN

Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

 

I'd be interested in how you do against Seraphon. I played 3 games over the weekend, 1 against Nurgle which was very close and 2 against 2 different coalesced Seraphon lists which I lost horrifically. Army-wide -1 damage and fitting what feels like twice as many wounds on the board puts us at a huge disadvantage.

1 hour ago, Derek said:

I have been talking with a friend and I think this list has some tricks to it.  Can definitely be edited to be “better” but given the damage potential from a king my thoughts are that this could do some work and can definitely be made more interesting by changing some things up maybe dropping a king for lotan and a tidecaster.

 

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Ionrach
    - Grand Strategy: Sever the Head
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)*
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion

Akhelian King (250)**
    - General
    - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Potion of Hateful Frenzy
    - Mount Traits: Voidchill Darkness

Akhelian King (250)**
    - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Spells: Flaming Weapon

BATTLELINE

Namarti Thralls (130)**

Namarti Thralls (130)**

Namarti Thralls (130)**

OTHER

Akhelian Allopexes (165)**
    - Retarius Net Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

Akhelian Allopexes (165)**
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Command Entourage

**Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (1970/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

I can't say I agree with this many kings in a list. 7 wounds without a ward dies to a stiff breeze, despite their awesome traits, and as established earlier you can only use the king's ability once per game even if you stack them. You'd be better off replacing at least one of them with Volturnos to give the +1 attack, too. Also, I don't think I'd ever run a list without an Isharann hero, the rituals are unbelievable value.

[Derek]

Yea I was fiddling with the list and found that if I drop one I can put in lotann and a tidecaster.  It’s probably not a list I’d run anytime soon but I’m convinced that the list has some play,  maybe not gonna win a GT or a major but could be a solid win into a one day or a couple casual games.

[DocKeule]

Oh boy I hope we will not get a King spam or that is the next unit they will nerf into oblivion. 

[Derek]

I don’t think it’ll gain traction in the wider meta.  All they’ll do is make it give up a ton of bonus points to armies like they did to the wind spirits and other units.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Derek