New to LON

[TheGoose]

Hi, I'm new to playing Legion of Nagash. I recently picked up the collecting boxes of Malignants and the Skeleton Horde. Do these 2 boxes go together & what else should I get? I'm looking to have a fun somewhat competitive list. Any help is appreciated.

[Lich King]

I’m a LON only dedicated player. I would hold off on buying some things as we’re about to transition to Soulblight Gravelords most likely.  Hold off on the Battletome too since there are going to be huge changes this year for our collection. I would assemble and start to paint the boxes you just bought as they are great values and can go together quite well!! Always go for the look of cool- not the competitive list. After you get many models you like - you can often build lists from the boxes you own 

[Evil Bob]

More skeletons never hurts.  Ten are only ever good for a speed bump.  At that point zombies do it cheaper.

[Honk]

12 hours ago, TheGoose said:

I'm looking to have a fun somewhat competitive list. Any help is appreciated.

Somewhat is the max LoN is able to do, imo...

 I love fielding 60zombies and a corpse cart (2+hit/3+wound) but you’ll need a vamp and an necro to get a great output (+1attack and van hels) and enough bodies into the fight, that you outdamage your opponent.

40 skellis is also nice, but with all the rend and damage output in the powercreep, they are not as unkillable as they were, when LoN dropped.

graveguard do perform well, but are slow

direwolves are still great, but same as with the skellis, the damage output nowadays gets you pretty fast.

Blackknights are kinda nice on the charge, the „deathmarch“ battalion might still be relevant, even when you’re not allowed to buy multiple CPs anymore (strong list back then was 1900+2CP for vamp ca and wightking ca).

bloodknights finally are in a point region that is realistic, sadly the price region is high fantasy...

Morghast can be good, even when they are pricey and kinda belong to OBR, but in a grand host or backstabbing LoNight

arkhan still great, also better in obr, but a strong mage for good points

Mannfred boi, only for the fluff in friendly games, in beer and pretzel kinda cool, had fun in a soulblight game, but for real? Too expensive too fragile...

naferata girl, same as Mannfred, will still give her a ride out next time. CPs are too expensive, back then a 2. turn 2CP twighlight allure could shut down the enemy centre for your Bloodknights charge in LoBlood 

necromancer are almost essential, vamplord well 2.place for support ...wightking 3. 😢 too expensive, no magic too fragile/important for melee

lord on Dragon I don‘t have much luck with him, after they threw out the ethereal amulet... but still a solid suicide charger 

palanquin, never played it

coven throne, I love it, very nice buffs, nice spell, fast support piece... good point value 

spirit hosts, no experiences 

now to my weak spot, I hate nighthaunt, just because I didn’t like the way they superbly were tossed into LoN and were better there than in their own book, but that is pure personal feelings...

but the chainrasps are more mobile and more Independent than skellis and the reapers are also very fast, better save and good damage output, both kinda outperforming skellis and guards imo... with everybody having rend, the unmodified armor is solid, flying...

Nagash... still...too...early... can’t talk about... roughly 100-150 points too expensive considering the points of teclis or kroak and the lack of goodies he lost and only has in OBR. it is just sad, at 800 pts you could field him for fun, now you’re getting crushed. 16hp on a 3+ is nothing in the shooting meta, not even for fun (will still field him)...

zombiedragon...might as well field a terrorgheist, they can be fun in Legion of blood with the extra -1 bvy or in a legion of night for the ambush fun.

mortis Engine, kinda fun, general bravery is too high to make the thing rock the house, within the LoBlood it can support a helterskelter charge next to Blackknights and a dragonlord

banshee, almost forgot... there you have it 😥 when your positioning game is imba op, a Legion of blood bravery list might crush a poor gobbo list, Morghast, death banner, LoBlood, overwhelming dead gives -4/-5 bravery, suddenly that scream does 2d6 mortals, but the needed positioning is a nightmare 

 

there you have it, my two cents, the only valid opinion from the most exalted Death Player that sits on my couch 

with all the downward stroll we are taking in the meta, LoN still is versatile and fun to play 

[Evil Bob]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:39 AM, Honk said:

Morghast can be good, even when they are pricey and kinda belong to OBR, but in a grand host or backstabbing LoNight

“Cool Story Bro,” time.  Several years ago I used them in an escalation league.  Always in Grand Host of Nagash.  Sometimes as skirmishers/lesser-hammers in a unit of two and sometimes as bid-kid-kicks in a unit of four.  Morghasts Harbingers with Spirit Halberds.

A few common themes.

• Died too easy in sustained fights
• Needed every attack die
• Very swing-y even in GHoN.  Either they slaughtered the Bloodthurster in one round of fighting or all four wiped to bow carrying trees after whiffing the attack rolls.

The gambler inside me couldn’t get enough of these guys.  That 3D6 charge is killer. If a Vampire Lord on Abysmal Terror super-charges them it is almost criminal what the threat range goes to.

At the end of the league I qualified to attend the one day pyramid tournament championship where the top players from two different game nights duked it out.  People aren’t used to seeing these guys.  I would tie up enemy units with other forces and try to nuke soft or important targets with the Morghasts.  Almost made the top four semi finals if not for rolling a perfect fail with them followed by a “2” on a charge roll at 3.01 inches with my VLoZD.  Those die rolls were my fault and not the army.
 

So currently their wounds are up fifty percent.  Cost down after two drops over the years.  Granted the last decrease was GW trying to get people to use them in OBR.  Still cherry for GHoN in LoN.  If you don’t mind putting almost a quarter of your army points in them,  dealing with one of the early “auto-cad hell” kits, or entire matches dependent on sixteen attack dice at nail biting moments then these guys are for you.

[Sception]

OK, first, as already mentioned, this is unfortunately not a good time to be starting Legions of Nagash.  Their book is pretty outdated, several of their current units seem to be shifting to other factions (Nagash, Arkhan, Morghasts, all nighthaunt stuff), and the overall faction seems poised to be rebranded as the 'Soulblight Gravelords', something akin to oldhammer undead with vampires at the top and lesser undead serving them.  On top of that, the entire game is probably going to see a new edition relatively soon.  by summer 2022, imo.

That said, you've already purchased two boxes, so lets first look at what to do with them.  You get:

1 Mortarch kit.  With some clever magnetization you can build the one kit to be any of the mortarchs you want in each given game, but imo that's more hassle than its worth and I'd recommend just picking one.  Arkhan looks to be moving to the OBR, so google search Mannfred and Neferata, read up some wiki entries to see which of the two you like better, and just build that.  Or rather, build sub-assemblies of that, then glue together after painting, because otherwise it'll be a pain in the butt.  Google search gain should help.

5 hexwraiths + 5 black knights.  These are dual kits, so you can actually build them as 10 of either.  Right now, I personally think hexwraiths are better, particularly when allied in using a nighthaunt formation from white dwarf, but in a future proofing sense you should probably build black knights instead.  Hexwraiths aren't likely to stay part of your army after the transition to Soulblight Gravelords, and as allies they really depend on that white dwarf formation that isn't likely to make the transition to 3rd edition age of sigmar.  Black Knights are the safer bet.

10 skeleton warriors.  Skeleton warriors are an ok unit, but unfortunately to be any good you really want to be running the maximum unit of 40.  So to make this unit shine, you'll need to go out, buy, assemble, and paint three more boxes of skeletons, for around $100 additional US dollars.  Outch!  But wait, looking at some of the previewed models for warhammer: Cursed City, it's entirely possible that we'll be seeing a new, cooler skeleton warrior kit coming out within the next year or so, so maybe you should just wait?  But then you'll have 10 skeletons that don't match the rest, so maybe you should get them now?  But maybe the new ones will have unit options not in the current kit so you should wait?  But maybe the new kit will be even more expensive than the current kit so you should get skeletons now?  But maybe their rules will change and you won't want big units of 40 anyway?  Or maybe you'll want multiple big units and you really extra should run out now and buy as many skeletons as you can because the entire army is about to get prohibitively expensive when you need 100 skeletons to function and the new ones turn out to be $60 for 10?  Or maybe the new ones will come in a box of 20 for less than $60 so they'll actually be cheaper then the current ones so you should wait after all?  Or maybe there /aren't/ any new skeleton warrior models coming, and the cool Cursed City models are just a one of thing for warhammer quest, and you'll end up waiting around for nothing?

I honestly have *no idea* what you should do with those skeletons.  All I can tell you is that, right now, 10 skeletons is kind of a non-unit.  So either buy more to field a bigger squad, or put them in the bits pile to scavenge bone pieces for decorating bases.

3 spirit hosts is kind of meh, not great, not terrible, but also not likely to stay part of the army after the gravelord transition.

The Mortis Engine is a multikit that can also be built as a Coven Throne or Blood Palanquin.  None of the three are especially competitive right now, all are hoping to see significant re-works in a new battletome.  I'd set the kit aside for now and wait to see which of the three units appeals most to you after the transition.

...

If you follow my advice, you'll end up with Neferata or Mannfred, 10 black knights, and.... that's about it.  Not an auspicious start, to be frank.  And again, I just can't recommend getting more stuff when we have no idea what the future of the faction really looks like right now.

 

So here's my real, real suggestion.  Build the black knights.  Build the skeletons.  Use the skeletons as paint scheme test models to find a way of painting bone that looks nice and is fast to replicate, then use the black knights to test out metal, wood, and cloth painting methods that go well with your bone scheme.  Take your time, don't hurry.  If you finish painting the black knights, get a necromancer, they're probably safe.  Use that to work out some pail flesh tone.  Hopefully that will keep you busy until April when the Warhammer Underworlds vampire warband is released.  Get that.   If nothing else, you can use the models as four different cool vampire lords.  Paint those.  Take your time on each one, one at a time, making them as nice as you can.  Hopefully /that/ will hold you off until cursed city.  Then get that, paint the undead in that box, maybe let your warhammer playing friends paint some of the good guy heroes if they want, and try to convince them to play some Warhammer Quest instead of AoS for a bit.  If you can get a few people to play Quest with you, then playing and painting cursed city should see you through till the Gravelord release, whatever it turns out to be.

[firststopgames]

Hi, new here and happy to join. 

I'm new to AoS and went with a Nagash army focusing on Deathrattle more; a bunch of skeletons and necromancers and such. We've only played two games but I've been completely dominated by Beastclaw Raiders. For the first match I tried Arkhan with Graveguard and a ton of skeletons, Wight King and necromancer. It was brutal. Charged right through my lines easily and destroyed all my heroes.

The second match, I tried Legion of Night to try to lure him in and I had Mannfred, Harbingers and Vargheists ambush in behind the lines. We randomly got a battle where the three objectives were in the middle. Yeah that didn't go well. Another brutal loss. 

Is there any chance to beat that army? They feel insane. Super fast, can shoot and hit like trucks and never die. I figured I could have an advantage having way more models but they count for a ton of models each and he still had like 30 some models and easily just camped some on my gravesites and the objectives and dominated. It feels completely unbalanced, even after summoning back most of my army multiple times. 

Thanks!

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, firststopgames said:

We've only played two games but I've been completely dominated by Beastclaw Raiders.

Is there any chance to beat that army?

Overwhelming Dread from the Lore of Deathmages really mess with Frost Lords.  They also get hung up on Spirit Host blocks or invuln saves in general.  BCR hate facing Nighthaunt.  I’ve used Chainwrasps in many different death related armies to stop oversized rampaging monsters.   Grimghast Reapers can slow or dish damage.

A cheap twenty man infantry block across your deployment zone edge stops most Alpha Strike armies.  Their supper charge only obliterating 160 points is called mitigated damage.  The one thing you really want to avoid is having the BRC take out your unit followed by him getting another charge turn.  So figuring out unit durability is important.

With the first list four Morghast Harbingers with Spirit Halberds have a good chance of wrecking anything BCR so long as they fight first.

What kind of list is this BCR player running?

[firststopgames]

I know he had a unit of leadbelchers, a Frostlord on Stonehorn, and two others on Stonehorns. He also had mournfang packs and the ogor footsoldiers. They seem disgustingly strong. I was trying to screen them off with weak troops. I did ambush the footsoldiers with the two Harbingers but only managed to kill 1 or 2 before they got countercharged by one of the Stonehorns and killed. I did manage to take down the leader with a ton of skeletons, Mannfred and the Vargheist but it wasn't until turn 5. He lost that and a few of the footsoldiers and that's it. 

Thanks for the ideas though. I was afraid I would have to buy more models for this army, I already have a ton. I was looking at adding Chainwrasps and Reapers since it seems like everyone is running them. I'll bite the bullet and do it. 

[AverageBoss]

38 minutes ago, firststopgames said:

I know he had a unit of leadbelchers, a Frostlord on Stonehorn, and two others on Stonehorns. He also had mournfang packs and the ogor footsoldiers. They seem disgustingly strong. I was trying to screen them off with weak troops. I did ambush the footsoldiers with the two Harbingers but only managed to kill 1 or 2 before they got countercharged by one of the Stonehorns and killed. I did manage to take down the leader with a ton of skeletons, Mannfred and the Vargheist but it wasn't until turn 5. He lost that and a few of the footsoldiers and that's it. 

Thanks for the ideas though. I was afraid I would have to buy more models for this army, I already have a ton. I was looking at adding Chainwrasps and Reapers since it seems like everyone is running them. I'll bite the bullet and do it. 

Ya, thats not just beastclaw, but a full Mawtribes list.
Mixed Mawtribes can be surprisingly versatile. And their book is in much better shape atm.
I will say that unless you are using him in a battalion, the Wight King is not really worth it. He is vastly outperformed by a Vampire Lord (better Vanhels, and is a caster). Also, Grimghast reapers outperform Grave Guard in speed, durability, and offense. Consider 5 man squads of wolves as screens, and 20 man Chainghast units as tarpits. Skeleton warriors are great at throwing out tons of attacks, but they struggle to pierce armor, and cant take any sort of hit back. Keep that in mind for their targets. I had trouble justifying Morghasts when the Legions book was considered the strongest in the game, I don't expect them to do a whole lot now. Overwhelming Dread and Fading Vigor are your best friends in the spell department.

[Evil Bob]

18 hours ago, firststopgames said:

I know he had a unit of leadbelchers, a Frostlord on Stonehorn, and two others on Stonehorns. He also had mournfang packs and the ogor footsoldiers. They seem disgustingly strong. I was trying to screen them off with weak troops. I did ambush the footsoldiers with the two Harbingers but only managed to kill 1 or 2 before they got countercharged by one of the Stonehorns and killed. I did manage to take down the leader with a ton of skeletons, Mannfred and the Vargheist but it wasn't until turn 5. He lost that and a few of the footsoldiers and that's it. 

Thanks for the ideas though. I was afraid I would have to buy more models for this army, I already have a ton. I was looking at adding Chainwrasps and Reapers since it seems like everyone is running them. I'll bite the bullet and do it. 

The Ogar Gluttons (or foot solders) are his tarpit.  They are pointed cheaply per wound and are hard to shift.  Charging them with any hammer is exactly what he wanted since that opens up counter charges by the Stonehorn where they get the most possibility from mortal wounds.   About the best you can hope for is locking them with one of your tarpits and aiming for positions on objectives.  Depending how many there are a full skeletal unit might be able to lock horns.  I’ve fought large blocks of Gluttons before and it has been a slugfest brawl every-single-time.

Ideally you want to be charging the Stornhorns (and turn off his mortal wound charge) which is hard to achieve with a decent opponent.  Morghast Harbingers are the best bet for that, alternatively sending them after the Leadbeltchers can be good for protecting your support heroes.  Grimghast Reapers have decent mobility and might be able to pull off that job.  Bracketing the Frost Lord is something I keep in mind whether it be with magic, declaring charges, or prioritizing combats.

With all those units I’m guessing the Mournfang packs were two model units and used as opportunist Raiders to either fight, snag objectives or babysit.  If you’re only running two Morghasts then their best possible job is as Raiders as well.  Two Morghasts in Nagash’s Legion will wipe the floor against two Mournfangs.  You have the same armor, same wounds, better rend, and more damage output.  The only downside is after slaughtering them getting countercharge by a Stonehorn.

 

Tightening up your list composition might help.

 I try to keep control on hero points, once it clears 25% of the army I lock it off.   Every hero has to have strong justification.  When I bring Arkham then the Necromancer generally stays home.  Ascetically I like the Wight King but his damage output is disgustingly low, other than his armor save GW Devs made the Vampire Lord better in every way.

Some people here have sworn on the value of Graveguard with double handed weapons and crazy combos.  Normally I didn’t care for them because of low speed, poor armor, and high price.  GW did lower their points awhile back.  Oddly against this opponent they could be great since he’s coming to you.  Wights are more price efficient on damage than Grimghadt Reapers whose advantage is maneuverability and survival (and regen models point cost).  If you are going with Graveguard commit to the full unit and try to deploy them right behind a sacrificial unit that will get attacked turn one.  Alternatively or co-equally a unit of ten (twenty, or even thirty) Grimghasts could just be out and take the hit for a counter attack like a baited trap.

Consider upgrading the Morghasts to four models if you want an actual hammer unit.  Otherwise focus using the as Raiders.  Or ditching them entirely for points that can be spent on Graveguard or Grimghasts.

Chainwrasps count as battleline.  They work great in units of twenty for a chess game approach.   Although if you really want to stop the charges cold go forty.  Try and save a command point for either battleshock or regen.

Skeletons spam dice so they are a sort-of hammer unit when above 30 models.  The units they are best suited against with this opponent are his Gluttons and Morunfang.  To be honest after the Nighthaunt book came out mine have mostly been put away.  So my unit structures in Grand Host of Nagash go Bedsheets=tank, Morghast=Hammer (after the point hike my Grimghasts saw less play), VLoZD=hammer/support.  Sometimes Direwolves for objective shenanigans and occasional sacrificial unit.

In a grand sense out maneuvering BCR isn’t likely with LoN.  I wouldn’t recommend Legion of the Night or related units from said Legion.  Go with the strength of this book which is protracted warfare.  Castle your gravesites in range of two or more objectives.  Place one a bit back so your general can always summon slain units.  Or place them in groups of two at halfway points between objectives.  The plan is for all 4d3 healing to be happening every time.  Don’t bother placing summonable units in the ground.  That trick is if your opponent doesn’t have reasonable board coverage and yours does.

Lastly the Vampire Lord or VLoZD boosting a large hammer unit of Graveguard/Grimghasts/4 Morghasts is really nice.  It takes the edge off bad dice rolls.

There might have been more to say but it’s almost 1am and my head is getting fuzzy.  Good hunting Firststopgames.

ps banking a Command Point wouldn’t hurt in case he goes first

Edited February 19, 2021 by Evil Bob
Grammar issues, redundancy

[Honk]

4 hours ago, firststopgames said:

I was looking at adding Chainwrasps and Reapers since it seems like everyone is running them. I'll bite the bullet and do it. 

Tactics were discussed by brighter minds, sadly 40skellis are not the unmovable objekt they once were...

keep in mind, that Gravelords are on the horizon, before any major investments. That might still be a year out, but AoS is not MtG.

[firststopgames]

This is awesome info, thanks so much everyone. Yeah just for wanting to play the game so bad I dived in pretty hard. I know I probably should wait for updates. I did buy some Chainrasp Horde and I'll add some Grimghast Reapers too because all of that sounds viable. Yeah I do agree the Wight King just seems to not be performing well for me either.  Thanks so much everyone for the advice! I've got things to work on then.