Let's Chat: Free Peoples

[Hugh Halligan]

@MrCharisma do you think 1 unit of handgunners and 1 unit of xbows is the way forward?

[MrCharisma]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Halligan said:

Good stuff @MrCharisma doing the free people proud.  Cant believe you took demi's I think they are junk! 

Well done again really good effort!

Cheers mate. Demi’s play a role that we don’t otherwise have... a speed unit. 

I’ve never had a Major Victory in Knife to the Heart and getting to your opponent in Scorched Earth can be tough. 

Demi’s, Pistoliers and Outriders are our core options with speed... which I find pistoliers and outriders as junk. 

Taking a 2nd Griffon is the obvious choice but it doesn’t help me have 5 models for Knife to the Heart. 

100% on the rules. I break it down to the point where I give them what if scenarios... if you charge my Guard this will happen, if you charge my Crossbows this happens. 

I think the complication comes with the Piper & Drummers ability. You might try to stop the Great Company by ending your charge 4” from my Guard, but the counter-charge from the Musician gets me into combat (example). 

 

 

 

[MrCharisma]

6 minutes ago, Hugh Halligan said:

@MrCharisma do you think 1 unit of handgunners and 1 unit of xbows is the way forward?

Ummmm I personally believe Crossbowmen are great value. 60 shots hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+ with rend at 5+ is psychologically scary for your opponents and gives you output. 

The 20” range is a big reason why I take them. Most armies can’t handle the potential of 80 shots a turn... let alone the additional shots from a Great Company. 

I’m obviously mentioning stats with Hold the Line! 

[Josh]

nice meeting you on the weekend @MrCharisma i fully derped and forgot to say goodbye to Dan and yourself on Sunday so my apologies there.

great to see the Freepeople there and doing well! Made me check out what I have exactly & keen to bring them up to 2k now haha :-) 

thanks for the article, some interesting points and things ill consider as well

[MrCharisma]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

nice meeting you on the weekend @MrCharisma i fully derped and forgot to say goodbye to Dan and yourself on Sunday so my apologies there.

great to see the Freepeople there and doing well! Made me check out what I have exactly & keen to bring them up to 2k now haha :-) 

thanks for the article, some interesting points and things ill consider as well

 

@someone2040 Doom & Darkness video is uploaded, and solid work Sir! What was the rational for the cannon? I lean towards rocket batteries these days with the 180pts. 

@Josh it was a pleasure to meet you as well as the AusHammer team @Major and Brynley. Can’t believe you hung around watching Warhammer for 2 days though! 

I’m looking forward to seeing your Free People dusted off and kicking serious butt. 

[someone2040]

2 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

What Worked

- The list was highly optimised and worked incredible well. Each unit really helped the rest of the army. 

- Firepower from the handgunners and crossbowmen were brutal, so much that it obliterated 50 Bloodletters and sent a Khorne army retreating his force in an attempt to avoid the shooting and turned Durthu into wood chips.

- I was able to control the table due to the sheer amount of bodies on the table. My Great Company spread across the table to protect Scorched Earth, it denied a Major Loss in Knife to the Heart, zone denied any board access for a teleporting army

- Knight Azyros is a cheap ally that pays for himself  d3/d6 mortal wounds with his lantern is helpful (especially with me meta having so many Chaos armies) and re-rolling 1’s to shooting is just... amazing.

- Embracing Mystical terrain because you gain more than you lose. The Luminark ally was a great example because even with a failed test I can still receive the 6+ ward save for my army. 

Cool to hear what worked with a mega company. The Knight Azyros is definitely on my list of things to bring I reckon. Just gonna be interesting transporting him, a Griffon (potentially a Luminark) and terrain on the plane.

2 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

What Didn’t Work

- Archers aren’t worth 100pts. While they did provide some value throughout the games, I don’t think the free movement was enough to justify their spot

- Writ of Domination maybe wasn’t the best artifact to select. I didn’t find myself in too many positions where I needed it, with the most useful opportunities coming from my 60 shots from the Crossbowmen. 

- Movement trays helped speed up the game, however; I don’t feel like I optimised some of my deployments because I was just deploying using the default layouts. 

- Demigryphs with lance & sword. I don’t remember my Knights (not demigryphs) actually inflicting a wound. Might revisit them to have halberds for the rend. 

Note on the Demi's, the Halberds don't get rend, they just always have the consistent 3+ to wound which makes them slightly better in protracted combats. It is something I have thought about, but after some good success with my Demigryphs lately (in part due to the lances being damage 2 on the charge), I'm a little unsure which is better. I think it overall depends on how often you expect them to get stuck into a protracted combat.

I think it's a shame Free Peoples don't have any cheaper battalions (or ones that don't rely on over 50% of your army being a fixed set of units). Given they're the only ways to access magic items. I think we have about 4 useful artefacts (Armour, Luckstone, Collar, Writ) and it's a shame we can't flex out into a second item.

BTW, where did you get your movement trays from? It's something I've definitely been looking at, although I think I'm getting a lot more comfortable with moving my units around now after having played a few games.

2 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

Reflection & Challenges

- Explaining the rules to your opponent & the complexity with Pipers. In a highly competitive tournament like the Masters, I ended up clashing with an opponent and had to spend a good amount of time explaining the way a Great Company works. The situation is compounded by the Pipers/Drummers which cross over from where the Great Company stops. The rules ARE complex and I need to find a better way to ensure my opponents clearly understand. I think this impacted by sportsmanship scores because we do have a lot of synergied benefits.

- Losing your General early is a tough hill to climb. I ended up clashing with the winner of the Austrlian Masters who ran Tzeentch which included the Gaunt Summoner and Changling. While my Luminark has solved many Gaunt Summoner on Balewind problems, my opponent popped off my General via the Changling using a spell (I think it was the 9 dice, 4+ mortal wound spell). Not sure how I can protect him any further in a situation like this. 

- Demigryphs vs. Griffon. I ran 6 Demigryphs as 2 units of 3 to provide flexibility and minimise battleshock. If I compare pure points, I’d have to run another Griffon. The Demigryph’s did make the difference in Scorched Earth, providing the final touches for a zone denial and burning an objective. 

- Guard are the true MVP’s and losing them is tough. My first opponent cast Curse of Years on them and deleted the unit in turn 1 :-(. Luckily I had enough practice with Free People units under a mixed Order force (not relying on the Great Company) and swung the battle back in my favour. 

Yeah, I saw a little bit of the 'discussion' that was going on with the Khorne? player I think in one of the later rounds. It's definitely a real challenge to convey, especially since people have the old 'Detachment' rules in mind from older editions (Where it only happened in the turn someone charged in). It's a shame because no matter how much you explain stuff up front, if they're not familiar with the army it'll still catch them off guard at some point during the game.

I tend to agree on Demi's vs Griffon. The 2nd Griffon is just overall a better choice (Faster, Stronger, more armoured). The only advantages the Demi's have are they're likely tougher (More wounds overall) and you can split them into two units to do 2 things. But I think the advantages of having more Rend -2 in the list just far outweighs any small advantages the Demi's have. It's a shame, but I'll be keeping mine for now just to add a bit of variety into the list.

31 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

@someone2040 Doom & Darkness video is uploaded, and solid work Sir! What was the rational for the cannon? I lean towards rocket batteries these days with the 180pts. 

Thanks. The only reason for the Cannon over Rocket Battery is I don't have a Rocket Battery (While having a ****** ton of Cannons :() and I didn't want to proxy on video since Doom's army is fully painted as well (Although, I did forget 10 of my Xbows I recently finished painting, so for the keen eyed there are 10 Ungors pretending to have Xbows).

For those interested, you can find the battle report here (note I haven't listened to it yet tho! and likely swearing involved!):

That being said, if I do keep the allies similar to that video (Battlemage , Warrior Priest, Cannon, Gryph Hound), it is quite likely that I'd swap the Warrior Priest for an Azyros (Which just fights better and complements the shooting of the army while the Warrior Priest is just a semi-tanky hero) as well as swapping the Cannon for a Hellstorm (Given I'd just have to paint the Hellstorm itself as I've got plenty of crew lying around).

I'd really like to see how my list fairs against Tzeentch (I suspect, poorly), so hopefully will get to organise a game against them before Christmas.

[Josh]

1 hour ago, MrCharisma said:

 

@someone2040 Doom & Darkness video is uploaded, and solid work Sir! What was the rational for the cannon? I lean towards rocket batteries these days with the 180pts. 

@Josh it was a pleasure to meet you as well as the AusHammer team @Major and Brynley. Can’t believe you hung around watching Warhammer for 2 days though! 

I’m looking forward to seeing your Free People dusted off and kicking serious butt. 

^^ haha it wasn't hard at all, lots of nice people & good to watch some competitive games with a beer

im keen to give it a go! lots to finish off but will be nice having it done, need to go order a couple griffons!

[stato]

Hi all,

Do many of you Free-peoples use Archers?   

I have a partly painted Bretonnian army and thinking of using the Men-at-arms and Bowmen as Free Guild Guard and Archers. This would obviously mean using a lot of Archers (about 40) which seems a little much. 

The main intent is to use them for my Tempest Eye army (i think they will suit as the inhabitants of a city rules by the Tempest Lords well) but it would be nice if they could work as a Free Peoples army on their own merit, obviously with a few extra units as required. 

Just wondering your thoughts.

Thanks.

[Josh]

just ask your t/o or opponent & if they are cool with it, why not

 

regarding rules, i see their purpose & the free move is great but i just think would i rather another 10 guard and some spare points or another 10 handgunners or crossbowmen

 

i suppose it comes down to the usual 'whats in your army & how do you want to use them'

 

[someone2040]

I think the problem Archers have is they're this hybrid unit.

They're not terrible at shooting, but at the same time they aren't a real threatening unit either. They don't have the sit down and double shot ability that Xbows do, or the ability to become super accurate that Handguns do.

They have a slightly better combat profile than Xbows and Handgunners, but it's definitely nothing fancy and they're still super fragile with a 6+ save.

So basically, if you want to include them, you have to have a good plan for what you want to do with their pre-game move. This is 'their thing', that while Xbows can head shot or Handguns become more accurate if they stand still, Archers get to move. In essence I find they're a bit of a chaff unit, you use them to block up a section of the board and prevent alpha-striking too close to your lines.

Overall though, I think they're a bit weak because they don't fit the Freeguild game plan. That being you move to an appropriate place on the battlefield, and then you sit tight with your shooters to get the most benefits out of their extra abilities. Essentially you tend to get a double bonus with Hold the Line, as not only do you get +1,+1, you also tend to fulfil another condition on the shooters warscroll (Double shots and increased rend chance on Xbows or +1 to hit on Handguns). Archers don't get the double whammy, just a +1, +1.

There's also the problem in that they're chaff against alpha-strikes, but Freeguild Great Company rules already provide some counter-play to alpha strikes anyway.

 

Personally I think I'd like to see them drop 10-20 points in GHB2018. I don't think they will, because GW seem to like all the 'shooters' being the same cost, but I think they'd be quite viable at 80 points in the chaff role. At 100 you just think - may as well just take some Handgunners instead for an extra long rifle, or perhaps even pay an extra 30 for some Outriders who are always fast during the game.

 

As for using Bretonnians. I have no issue with that, and I don't think many people would. They're humans with Halberds, or Humans with bows after all. Seems fine to me.

[Duck1986]

So, thinking on allies, just thought I'd mention that I've found the Hellblaster Volleygun with Gunmaster a decent spend of 200 points! Inevitably quite random with the shots it spews out due to it being 3D6, being able to re-roll those dice due to the engineer (super-useful if the gun blocks due to rolling doubles, but also if it comes back with something really small like 5 shots). They are also down to a 2+/3+/-1/1 per shot if the unit is within 13''.

Due to the fact I always roll appallingly with a cannon, I seem to have had greater success with the Hellblaster of late, easily wiping out a unit of Bloodreavers on their journey across the battlefield towards me, and causing significant damage to other low-save masses.

So if being careful with points spent on allies, these two for 200 points seems a good deal as far as I'm concerned!

 

[someone2040]

I've played the Hellblaster a few times before (early on when it was what I had painted). I think they're fine if you're trying to squeeze the most things in with your Ironweld Allies. But I do think they have a few issues:

A) You need to take the Gunmaster/Cogsmith to make them reliable

B) Like all war machines, the crew is extremely fragile. So if the enemy outranges you, the first thing they're likely to target is the crew. They also fall victim to Stardrake meteor showers.

C) They're not that much better than a unit of Handgunners or Xbows, which can be taken in larger units and buffed by the Freeguild General

but lastly

D) They don't really offer much that Freeguild themselves can't bring to the taken. They're essentially just bringing more -1 rend shots to the table. In general, you want to use your allies to shore up weaknesses in your main faction. For Freeguilds, this means lack of rend/mortal wounds. That's why Hellstorms and Luminarks in general are pretty highly rated. 

 

So yeah, IMO it's not that the Hellblaster is bad. It just doesn't do anything different for the list. I do think it's a cool war machine though, and definitely something I would take in games that weren't super competitive games (I used to run Hellblaster + Cannon + Gunmaster as my allies earlier on)

[Duck1986]

Fair points indeed. I think I've enjoyed it partly because they have been 1000 point games and they were actually three player games, so starting positions were a bit closer. So I guess the advantage there is that you get reliability by including a Gunmaster for 200 points  which you don't get with a cannon in that price-range. I understand what you mean about them being similar to Handgunners etc however with only -1 rend. I think against heavier opponents or larger points values, I'd still roll with cannons.

 

I'm considering my next 1000 point battle which I know will involve some defensive play. I have 300 points left over for a ranged defensive block, and I'm torn between taking 30x Handgunners and 30x Crossbowmen? Both would be played with "Hold the line" command ability from the general and probably not move far from their starting position. Instinct and "ooooh this is fun" draws me towards crossbowmen with the idea of sending 60 shots, but if my maths serves me correctly, with full buffs and abilities activated, 30 Handgunners should do more damage once they are on a 2+/2+/-1/1 as opposed to the sixty shots from Crossbowmen on a 3+/3+/0 (or -1 on a 5+ wound) 1 from crossbowmen? by my reckoning you should do 20.8 wounds with 30 Handgunners + rend, as opposed to 15 wounds from 20 Crossbowmen (only 5 of these with -1 rend)?

Of course, the extra range of the crossbows may mean an extra shot.

 

TL:DR - 30x Handgunners or 30x Crossbows?

 

 

[stato]

18 minutes ago, Duck1986 said:

Fair points indeed. I think I've enjoyed it partly because they have been 1000 point games and they were actually three player games, so starting positions were a bit closer. So I guess the advantage there is that you get reliability by including a Gunmaster for 200 points  which you don't get with a cannon in that price-range. I understand what you mean about them being similar to Handgunners etc however with only -1 rend. I think against heavier opponents or larger points values, I'd still roll with cannons.

 

I'm considering my next 1000 point battle which I know will involve some defensive play. I have 300 points left over for a ranged defensive block, and I'm torn between taking 30x Handgunners and 30x Crossbowmen? Both would be played with "Hold the line" command ability from the general and probably not move far from their starting position. Instinct and "ooooh this is fun" draws me towards crossbowmen with the idea of sending 60 shots, but if my maths serves me correctly, with full buffs and abilities activated, 30 Handgunners should do more damage once they are on a 2+/2+/-1/1 as opposed to the sixty shots from Crossbowmen on a 3+/3+/0 (or -1 on a 5+ wound) 1 from crossbowmen? by my reckoning you should do 20.8 wounds with 30 Handgunners + rend, as opposed to 15 wounds from 20 Crossbowmen (only 5 of these with -1 rend)?

Of course, the extra range of the crossbows may mean an extra shot.

 

TL:DR - 30x Handgunners or 30x Crossbows?

Defensive play?  probably Handgunners.  I prefer the range of crossbows, getting all 30 in range of a decent target is a struggle even then, but a defensive Freeguild line would be using the gunners to kill whats just infront of them or in combat with your Guard unit.

[someone2040]

10 hours ago, Duck1986 said:

I'm considering my next 1000 point battle which I know will involve some defensive play. I have 300 points left over for a ranged defensive block, and I'm torn between taking 30x Handgunners and 30x Crossbowmen? Both would be played with "Hold the line" command ability from the general and probably not move far from their starting position. Instinct and "ooooh this is fun" draws me towards crossbowmen with the idea of sending 60 shots, but if my maths serves me correctly, with full buffs and abilities activated, 30 Handgunners should do more damage once they are on a 2+/2+/-1/1 as opposed to the sixty shots from Crossbowmen on a 3+/3+/0 (or -1 on a 5+ wound) 1 from crossbowmen? by my reckoning you should do 20.8 wounds with 30 Handgunners + rend, as opposed to 15 wounds from 20 Crossbowmen (only 5 of these with -1 rend)?

Of course, the extra range of the crossbows may mean an extra shot.

TL:DR - 30x Handgunners or 30x Crossbows?

I think your maths might be a bit mixed up (as you seem to be comparing 30 Handgunners to 20 Xbows).

My maths shows (ignoring leader bonuses), that 30 Handgunners result in 20.83 wounds while the 30 Xbows result in 26.666 (13.33 + 13.33) wounds before saves. Which actually puts the Xbows a little bit ahead of the Handgunners in most situations.

That being said, there are definitely other things to consider:

1. Crossbows have more range than Handgunners, which may mean they can bring their firepower to bear earlier/more models.
2. Crossbows are pretty rubbish on the move (Gaining no benefit for being a large unit), while Handgunners still get a +1 to hit.
3. The Crossbows ability lets them shoot, and then shoot again. This can be both a good and bad thing. It's good in that you can decide based on how much damage you do in the first volley, split your fire differently the second time. It's bad, because if the enemy unit is only 'just in range', a canny opponent might decide to remove models closer to the front so that less models are in range for the 2nd volley.

Personally I haven't used 30 Handgunners. My list is built more around smaller great companies with a few units of small Handgunners (to get more Long Rifles). But overall, I think ultimately there are pros and cons for both cases, and it just comes down to what you feel works best with your army.

[Duck1986]

Thanks for the advice guys! I did mean 30 crossbows but for some reason wrote 20! My maths for 30 crossbowmen was that on a 3+/3+ (as a result of hold the line), firing twice would mean 30 hits from 60 shots, and of these 15 wounds - but maybe I'm using the wrong calculation?

 

My logic for a 30-strong unit is to maximise their bonuses so that if one dies they don't lose them such as if I took a unit of 20. It is costly points wise and as pointed out above, it's hard to then get them all in range!

[flamingwalnut]

35 minutes ago, Duck1986 said:

Thanks for the advice guys! I did mean 30 crossbows but for some reason wrote 20! My maths for 30 crossbowmen was that on a 3+/3+ (as a result of hold the line), firing twice would mean 30 hits from 60 shots, and of these 15 wounds - but maybe I'm using the wrong calculation?

 

My logic for a 30-strong unit is to maximise their bonuses so that if one dies they don't lose them such as if I took a unit of 20. It is costly points wise and as pointed out above, it's hard to then get them all in range!

Yeah, hitting on 3s is not 50%. If it is 3+/3+, then you hit 40 out of 60, and then, which is a bit over 26 wounds. 2/3 of the hits, and then 2/3 of the wounds.

[Duck1986]

You're right, and it makes a million percent sense now you've explained it!  I forgot how a dice works

[budebear]

What dya think of this? Basically just tryna play how I used to play my brets

 

Freeguild General on horse

FG general on Griffin x2

Fey enchantress 

-

Grail Knights x5

Gryph hound

Demigryph Knights x3

Demigryph knights x3

Crossbowmen x30

Crossbowmen x30

Freeguild guard x10

 

 

2000/2000

 

[stato]

52 minutes ago, budebear said:

What dya think of this? Basically just tryna play how I used to play my brets

Spoiler

Freeguild General on horse

FG general on Griffin x2

Fey enchantress 

-

Grail Knights x5

Gryph hound

Demigryph Knights x3

Demigryph knights x3

Crossbowmen x30

Crossbowmen x30

Freeguild guard x10

2000/2000

 

 

Freeguild cant take Brettonians as allies so it would have to just be a straight Order list, so how do you see it working? Who would be general?

[budebear]

11 minutes ago, stato said:

Freeguild cant take Brettonians as allies so it would have to just be a straight Order list, so how do you see it working? Who would be general?

Aw heck well that’s ruined my plan, more Demi’s I guess lol

[stato]

Just now, budebear said:

Aw heck well that’s ruined my plan, more Demi’s I guess lol

Sorry! 

I have a lot of Brets i painted up at the beginning of the year and i only got to use the Fey enchantress once before she was killed off .  Im planning to re-build them as a Hammerhal army (as that is any Order units) along with my lost Dwarfs. Its not a great allegiance buff but I like that it gives them a place in AoS. My paint jobs are not elaborate on the knights and they are mostly blue so they should be easy to put togther as a unified force with a few extra paint touches.

[MrCharisma]

Hurricanum

Does Freepeople NEED to take this unit to dish out mortal wounds?

I’m heading into Australia’s biggest tournament (CanCon) and while I love my list with the Luminark & Knight Azyros... I don’t think i can handle the Vanguard meta with a Stardrake & 2+ / re-rolling 1 Liberator. 

This type of list was my only loss at Blood & Glory.

Thoughts?

[someone2040]

20 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

Hurricanum

Does Freepeople NEED to take this unit to dish out mortal wounds?

I’m heading into Australia’s biggest tournament (CanCon) and while I love my list with the Luminark & Knight Azyros... I don’t think i can handle the Vanguard meta with a Stardrake & 2+ / re-rolling 1 Liberator. 

This type of list was my only loss at Blood & Glory.

Thoughts?

So the only ways to get mortal wounds (in particular, at range) into a Freeguild list are:

Collegiate Arcane - Battlemages (Inclduing Luminark and Griffon Mage), Hurricanum deals out more.

Stormcast Eternals - Anything on a Dracoth, Celestant-Prime, Knight Heraldor, Azyros lantern (one use), Longstrikes

Won't even bother listing the Devoted of Sigmar stuff

That being said, I was somewhat underwhelmed in the 2 games I tried out the Hurricanum. I expected the Storms to delete heroes from the game (5 wound ones anyway), but in reality it just never seemed to quite finish them off in one turn. I haven't run the numbers, so I don't really know if I was just rolling poorly or not (and in the first game I made a completely stupid choice and basically threw away the Hurricanum turn 1 anyway).

Ultimately that, it's another centrepiece model I'd need to paint, and it's large to travel with has kinda pushed it away from being an allies choice for me for now.

 

Overall though, I mentioned this earlier in the thread. The complete absence of mortal wounds in our faction (and the scarcity of reliable mortal wounds in allies) really cements Free Peoples outside the Top Tier. No matter how many shots we shoot in our shooting phase and enemy charge phases, you just can't get through some things without high rend and/or mortal wounds.

I think for the most part, just going to have to swallow that some matchups are extremely poor for us. Mirror shield Star Drakes are just the worst because not only are they extremely tough, they come equip with a Lord Castellant most of the time and are even harder to get into with shooting. Certainly an alternative to the Cannon/Hellstorm I've been considering are Longstrikes (Which can put out unreliable mortal wounds), but those (and our war machines) just wouldn't really scratch a Star Drake.

 

One thing I've been considering is whether or not the Celestant-Prime is worth a look at. You lose out on your magic in your allies, but the Prime can come down turn 2 or 3 and start blowing stuff up. He kinda does a bit of everything, mortal wounds, high rend high damage attacks, comes down where you need him but is a bit on the fragile side (Especially since you can't ally in a Life mage to heal him). Possibly a more interesting choice at 2500 where you can squeeze in some more allies.

[Helmut]

I will second what @someone2040 has said regarding unreliable mortal wound output. 

I played a game on Sunday vs Seraphon and rolled an abnormal number of 1-3s on Storm.  Against an army that largely ignores -1 rend I was hoping for more MWs than I managed. Also found myself outranged by his longstrike x-bows and a Bastiliadon.

With that being said, I am very happy with the hurricanum overall. The mage also has a D6 MW spell, and the +1 to hit is fantastic in our army. Allows your gunners to still hit on a 3+ if they need to move, and really helps nearby outriders with their terribly unreliable damage output.

I have a match against a Hammerstrike list w/ Stardrake in January...not sure how to deal with it yet, but one good round of spells/shooting from the Hurricanum would make life a lot easier for my Griffon to swoop in and finish it off.

Also wanted to take the opportunity to show the demigryphs some love. They won me the game (Scorched earth) with a cross board charge to knock Saurus Guard off an enemy objective. The +2 to charge rolls gives them that extra boost to pull off a move like that.