Let's Chat: Free Peoples

[Origin]

Awesome, old mate Balthasar will do the trick nicely. Him, a firemage and a cannon shot fell a tree in short order. Thanks. 

[Hugh Halligan]

Hey guys, has anyone had any joy using archers? I can see a use for the 12" move in the hero phase, creating a road block screen, slowing down fast moving armies and giving the shooting units an extra round or two to cause damage and maybe grabbing objectives early on.  

[Hugh Halligan]

Another post from me! I have a 1500pt tournement is next week and I am still to decide on list.  

If you were in my position what list would you put together? The tournament will be 3 games randomly selecting scenarios from the general handbook. 

I have the following units to pick from:

HEROS: Hurricanum, Luminark, General on Griffon, General on Horse,  5x various battle mages, loremaster, Balthasar gelt, Luther huss

UNITS: 60 crossbows, 30 handgunners, 30 swordsmen, 40 halberdiers, 30 great swords,  10 archers,  9 Demigryph, 15 knights, 10 outriders, 5 pistoliers

WARMACHINES: Steam Tank, 2xRocket Launchers, 2x Cannons, 2 Hellblasters volleyguns

I look forward to seeing your lists!! 

 

[Steini]

21 hours ago, Hugh Halligan said:

Hey guys, has anyone had any joy using archers? I can see a use for the 12" move in the hero phase, creating a road block screen, slowing down fast moving armies and giving the shooting units an extra round or two to cause damage and maybe grabbing objectives early on.  

@Hugh Halligan how do you get the 12" movement with archers? They get 5" after setup which is not fast or far enough as a speedbump I would say. 

Concerning your tournament, Do you know your local meta? Hurricanum, Handgunners and Crossbowmen defended by swords seems the Way to go as a core- adding more units depending on your meta and taste. 

[Hugh Halligan]

23 hours ago, Steini said:

@Hugh Halligan how do you get the 12" movement with archers? They get 5" after setup which is not fast or far enough as a speedbump I would say. 

Concerning your tournament, Do you know your local meta? Hurricanum, Handgunners and Crossbowmen defended by swords seems the Way to go as a core- adding more units depending on your meta and taste. 

I dont no where 12" came from sorry! But it does say you can make a bonus move with the unit as if it were moving in the movement phase, so I guess you would be able to run as well, so 5" + run = average of 8"-9".

 

Not a clue on the local meta.  The problem  I am having is that I want to include too many hero's for 1500pt. Hurricanum, General on Griffon, General o BSB and lore master. I know I should probably drop the loremaster and griffon at this size game.

[Steini]

You should. Hurricanum for mortal wounds and General with BS on horse are sufficient. Add some long Ranged artillery  to force the enemy in range of your gunline of Handgunners and Crossbowmen, defended by Swordmen! Or go all cav and General on Griffon to be mobile and agressive but Freeguild are Not the best in this game.

[someone2040]

18 minutes ago, Hugh Halligan said:

I dont no where 12" came from sorry! But it does say you can make a bonus move with the unit as if it were moving in the movement phase, so I guess you would be able to run as well, so 5" + run = average of 8"-9".

 

Not a clue on the local meta.  The problem  I am having is that I want to include too many hero's for 1500pt. Hurricanum, General on Griffon, General o BSB and lore master. I know I should probably drop the loremaster and griffon at this size game.

The problem I guess is that you have both the Hurricanum and Griffon. Between the two of them they almost take up half your army, and adding on just 1 more hero means you've sunk half your points into heroes.

The Hurricanum obviously offers a lot to lists, between the fact it buffs others, lands you a wizard and outputs mortal wounds from afar. It's a hard piece to go past in any list, especially if you already have the model! (Me, I'm on the fence! Don't have the model and there's a lot of detail in it, and I'm not sure if it fits the theme I want. So I'm gonna wait and see what GHB2 does for it).

However, the Griffon does bring something that's large, tough and can take the fight to the enemy. Important to have in some missions that require heroes to take objectives.

So ultimately it's up to you to craft your list and what you want to fit in.

A very basic list you could run is:

Celestial Battlemage on Hurricanum 320

Freeguild General on Griffon 300

Freeguild General 100

10 Freeguild Guard 80

10 Handgunners 100

10 Handgunners 100

30 Crossbowmen 300

3 Demigryph Knights 200

That list maybe has a bit too much shooting (50 models plus Hurricanum), and Demigryph's aren't the greatest. So you could do something like drop the Demi's and 1 unit of Handgunners for a Steam Tank, or take a larger variety of troops (10 Greatswords and 140 points in other Cavalry for example).

 

Just load up scroll builder or Azyr and fiddle away, you've got plenty of models so that's definitely not holding you back.

 

In regards to Archers. I intend to run a few, as I think they might be useful in a scenario like Border War where if you can claim a first turn objective, it could be useful. I've got models already (and do like the models), so we'll see where that leads me. I think in smaller games they can be better as they don't require large numbers to get their benefits. For example, I suspect they might be the best ranged unit we have in a Skirmish setting (or at least, likely better than a Crossbowman).

[MrCharisma]

I've recently dropped my 3 Demigryphs Knights and have elected to take 6 Prosecutors instead. Same wound count for the points, you can make it cheaper if you take javelins instead of celestial hammers, are faster and have ranged attacks too. 

[Steini]

8 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

I've recently dropped my 3 Demigryphs Knights and have elected to take 6 Prosecutors instead. Same wound count for the points, you can make it cheaper if you take javelins instead of celestial hammers, are faster and have ranged attacks too. 

But... But they don't have twirled moustaches and coloured feathers on their hats and helmets! How could you? ;-)

[MrCharisma]

1 hour ago, Steini said:

But... But they don't have twirled moustaches and coloured feathers on their hats and helmets! How could you? ;-)

Would it help if I told you that I cut their heads off and replaced them with human heads... sporting plenty of facial hair?

I like to think of them as Sigmars angels. I might event replace their wings with feathers at some stage 

[someone2040]

On 5/7/2017 at 9:23 AM, MrCharisma said:

I've recently dropped my 3 Demigryphs Knights and have elected to take 6 Prosecutors instead. Same wound count for the points, you can make it cheaper if you take javelins instead of celestial hammers, are faster and have ranged attacks too. 

The more I look at Demigryph's, the more I dislike them . Which is a real shame, since I really enjoyed painting my Demigryph's and think they're really cool models for a Free Peoples army.

 

Anyway Just did a quick excel session, comparing them against Prosecutors, Palladors, Fulminators, Grail and Questing Knights (All the units main units in a similar price point that you'd conceivably want to field in a 'human' type army).

Prosecutors

I chose this loadout when doing my comparison: Prime with Grand Hammer, Prosecutor with Grand Hammer, Prosecutor with Hammer and Shield, 3 Prosectors with Dual Hammers. You probably would not commonly take a unit of 6 though, more likely to take 2 units of 3. But for the sake of not re-doing my maths, I'll leave as is. They do more damage in melee than non-charging lance/cavalry halberd. Including their shooting, they'll do more damage than a charging lance demigryph (A fair comparison I think, because if you charge, you'll have time to shoot). 

Prosecutors take up more board space and may struggle to get all of them into melee (hence their combat stats may be slightly misleading if you assume a single unit). They are also more susceptible to battleshock. However, taking 2 units is likely the better option, and gives them more maneuvrability and able to cover more ground. 

The fact that they can even shoot from 18" means they can contribute to the battle earlier in the game and give greater tactical flexibility. They can also perform longer ranged charges.

I won't compare the Javelin variant here. They fulfill different roles, all the maths does is show that in their turn (i.e when they get to shoot), they outperform Demigryphs, but if they're charged they're probably roast golden chickens.

Palladors

Palladors are an interesting comparison. They come in at 20 points more, not quite as tanky due to lacking shields but do come with 3 more wounds. They also come with ranged damage, and can speedily move across the battlefield if necessary.

Handaxes overall deal more damage than non-charging lance/cavalry hammer, and if you include shooting do slightly less damage than a charging lance against more armoured targets, but drops off against 5+ save.

Javelins of course, don't perform as well as in melee, or even from ranged if you're just firing your javelins. They come up just over the Handaxe variant if you get to use your Javelin Shooting + Boltstorm Shooting + Combat profile.

I think while the damage shows that Palladors are fairly samey, it's important not to underestimate their special rule "Ride the Winds Aetheric". This can enable them to speedily reach places that the opponent would not necessarily expect

Fulminators

At 40 points more than Demigryphs, I feel Fulminators bring a lot to the table. Even when they don't charge, they bring comparable damage to a Charging Demigryph! That's right, even in a unit of Demigryph's best case, they only slightly outclass Fulminators. It doesn't get much prettier from there once you add in a Fulminators charge bonus, or their Lightning Surge attacks. This only adds even more damage on a Fulminators turn compared to a charging Demigryph.

You then add in the fact that Fulminators have a 3+ save, and get to add 1 to their save in the shooting phase. Their damage spike is a lot higher as well if the Dracoths do well on their Intolerable Damage.

Grail Knights

Depending on how you play your funky special rules, depends on how absurd Grail Knights can get. Without 'For the Lady', they perform better than Demigryphs with lances. However, this is split between 5 models and 2 wounds less, so it is easier to reduce the damage output of the unit. They're also less tanky against shooting attacks as their shields only work on the charge. However, if you add in 'For the Lady' for free, Grail Knights vastly outperform Demigryphs. Having equivalent damage without even charging, then dealing more than twice as much if they actually charge compared to a charging lance.

Questing Knights

So perhaps a more interesting perspective instead are Questing Knights. No funky special rules like Grail Knights. On average, Questing Knights perform slightly worse than a charging Demigryph lance. Against monsters, their damage gets pumped up (Although, not to Grail Knight FTL charging levels). They suffer similar issues to the Grail Knight comparison, not being as tanky, and having the damage spread across more models.

Empire Knights

A quick one I did while I was at it. At 60 points less, of course they're going to be worse. Funnily, the Empire Knights with Cavalry Hammers are just plain better than Demigryphs with either weapon non-charging. A large part I guess comes down to for some reason, Cavalry Hammers get 2 attacks on Empire Knights compared to the 1 for the Lance. The extra 5 attacks almost make up for any benefit you get from Lances on the charge.

Neither weapon option is quite as good when using Duty and Honour compared to a Charging Demigryph with Lance.

 

I think that's about it for Cavalry you'd consider including in a Free Peoples army. I haven't heard anything amazing about any of the Aelf Cavalry, so it's Free Peoples, Stormcast or nothing I reckon. It's a very basic look at it from a mathhammer perspective, so it's important to recognizer that.

it doesn't consider any buffs, or any tactical advantage you have to having ranged attacks.

Personally I think if I had to rank the options for a Free Peoples army, this would be my choice:

Grail Knights, Fulminators, Prosecutors, Questing Knights, Palladors, Empire Knights, Demigryphs

 

It's sad, but Demigryph's do have one thing going for them. $$$. They're the cheapest if you go by RRP (or prior RRP in case of OOP models) apart from Empire Knights (Which I'm sure you'll find with Lances in spades on the second hand market, but not so much the Cavalry Hammers). And hey, cross our fingers and hope they get a price decrease in GHB2. 

[arka0415]

4 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Anyway Just did a quick excel session, comparing them against Prosecutors, Palladors, Fulminators, Grail and Questing Knights (All the units main units in a similar price point that you'd conceivably want to field in a 'human' type army).

...

Grail Knights

Depending on how you play your funky special rules, depends on how absurd Grail Knights can get. Without 'For the Lady', they perform better than Demigryphs with lances. However, this is split between 5 models and 2 wounds less, so it is easier to reduce the damage output of the unit. They're also less tanky against shooting attacks as their shields only work on the charge. However, if you add in 'For the Lady' for free, Grail Knights vastly outperform Demigryphs. Having equivalent damage without even charging, then dealing more than twice as much if they actually charge compared to a charging lance.

This is exactly what I've always wanted to read, man! I've wanted to add some cavalry punch to my Free Peoples, and throwing in some Grail Knights (counts-as Knights of the Blazing Sun?) seems like a great idea. I'm just worried that their compendium status might threaten their long-term role in a Free Peoples army...

[Aezeal]

On 2017-5-5 at 9:34 AM, Hugh Halligan said:

I dont no where 12" came from sorry! But it does say you can make a bonus move with the unit as if it were moving in the movement phase, so I guess you would be able to run as well, so 5" + run = average of 8"-9".

 

Not a clue on the local meta.  The problem  I am having is that I want to include too many hero's for 1500pt. Hurricanum, General on Griffon, General o BSB and lore master. I know I should probably drop the loremaster and griffon at this size game.

I think I read something that this isn't allowed... that movement in movement phase doesn't include anything except the M value.

[Aezeal]

13 hours ago, someone2040 said:

 

I think that's about it for Cavalry you'd consider including in a Free Peoples army. I haven't heard anything amazing about any of the Aelf Cavalry, so it's Free Peoples, Stormcast or nothing I reckon. It's a very basic look at it from a mathhammer perspective, so it's important to recognizer that.

it doesn't consider any buffs, or any tactical advantage you have to having ranged attacks.

Personally I think if I had to rank the options for a Free Peoples army, this would be my choice:

Grail Knights, Fulminators, Prosecutors, Questing Knights, Palladors, Empire Knights, Demigryphs

 

It's sad, but Demigryph's do have one thing going for them. $$$. They're the cheapest if you go by RRP (or prior RRP in case of OOP models) apart from Empire Knights (Which I'm sure you'll find with Lances in spades on the second hand market, but not so much the Cavalry Hammers). And hey, cross our fingers and hope they get a price decrease in GHB2. 

Reavers. 

[someone2040]

4 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Reavers. 

Reavers I would consider in a similar boat to Prosecutors with Javelins, they fulfill a different role in the army. They provide fast moving ranged fire support, but don't want to be in combat at all.

For the record, I did do the maths. Personally I feel that you're better off including Javelin Prosecutors over Reavers in a Free Peoples army. In mathhammer they outperform the Reavers when shooting.  Prosecutors are also tankier, but Reavers do have a movement edge over them as you're more likely to use their special rule than the advantage Prosecutors get for charging (with the Javelin variant anyway).

Reavers get a bunch of power from  the synergies within the Swifthawk Agents faction (namely the Skywardens and Spire of Dawn battalions) which you won't be entitled to in a Free Peoples army. 

I also think thematically, plonking in a unit of Reavers into a Free Peoples army is a bit harder to pull off than putting a Stormcast unit or two.

 

Another thing is that mathhammer doesn't show focus fire from the rest of the army. That's part of the power of having ranged attacks, is that you can focus many attacks at a single unit, while in combat you tend to only get 1 maybe 2 units into a single opposing unit.

Even Skyfires look tame enough if you just look at shooting shooting. Then you realize they can cheat their dice rolls on hitting and how many wounds they deal, are in-fact better in combat than they are at shooting, have faster movement than most things in the game, can fly, and oh, half the army is made up of these things.

[Origin]

@someone2040 Thanks for the comparison.
I have been running both Demigryph and Grail Knights in my list and the Grail Knights have been really solid especially when they are 20 points cheaper than the Demigryphs.

I ran the numbers for myself between Grail, Demigryphs and basic empire knights and you are right, Demigryphs are just no where near as good in output. 

However if your were to add the +1 attack option from the Brotherhood of Knights Battalion they do be come comparable with grail knight when not charging. So might be worth considering running the battalion if you really wanted Demigryphs. 

You'd think the Demigryph would be a bit more tanky but considering that a damsel can give the grail knights a 5++. The only thing I would consider is that demigryph might be better on the flanks unsupported. The 4+ save re-roll 1s is quite good, especially if they are in cover.

Might run a unit of 10 grail knights with a damsel for 500 points. Makes a solid center piece unit is a more aggressive free peoples army.
 

[Aezeal]

12 hours ago, Origin said:

@someone2040 Thanks for the comparison.
I have been running both Demigryph and Grail Knights in my list and the Grail Knights have been really solid especially when they are 20 points cheaper than the Demigryphs.

I ran the numbers for myself between Grail, Demigryphs and basic empire knights and you are right, Demigryphs are just no where near as good in output. 

However if your were to add the +1 attack option from the Brotherhood of Knights Battalion they do be come comparable with grail knight when not charging. So might be worth considering running the battalion if you really wanted Demigryphs. 

You'd think the Demigryph would be a bit more tanky but considering that a damsel can give the grail knights a 5++. The only thing I would consider is that demigryph might be better on the flanks unsupported. The 4+ save re-roll 1s is quite good, especially if they are in cover.

Might run a unit of 10 grail knights with a damsel for 500 points. Makes a solid center piece unit is a more aggressive free peoples army.
 

I've totally no idea about the numbers but proxying demi's as pegasus knights?

[someone2040]

Hey guys,

Just made my first blog post here. You can read it

Essentially what it contains is my version of Allegiance Abilities for the Free Peoples! I've introduced a concept called Orders, which people familiar with Imperial Guard will of course recognize it's something similar. I've got plenty of other ideas which are going to come as well, including magic items, battalions, extra units and griff-traits!

Check it out, and let me know what you guys think.

Edit: Actually, I'll upload it here. If you want to find out more about my reasons behind things, you can check out the blog post.

 

FreePeoplesAllegiance.pdf

[Hugh Halligan]

Another post from me! I have a 1500pt tournement is next week and I am still to decide on list.  
If you were in my position what list would you put together? The tournament will be 3 games randomly selecting scenarios from the general handbook. 
I have the following units to pick from:
HEROS: Hurricanum, Luminark, General on Griffon, General on Horse,  5x various battle mages, loremaster, Balthasar gelt, Luther huss
UNITS: 60 crossbows, 30 handgunners, 30 swordsmen, 40 halberdiers, 30 great swords,  10 archers,  9 Demigryph, 15 knights, 10 outriders, 5 pistoliers
WARMACHINES: Steam Tank, 2xRocket Launchers, 2x Cannons, 2 Hellblasters volleyguns
I look forward to seeing your lists!! 
 

So I went to my first one day tournament and had blast!

I ended up taking the following:

blob:http://www.scrollbuilder.com/df3a75b3-25f9-4277-bcbd-1abbb53a2bc1

My first game was against death with a mourngul, big unit of skeletons and lots of vampires including Vlad and Isobella. It turns out mournguls do not like 60 crossbows hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s and I killed it in turn 1. I managed to win this game taking his army off which took me to the top tables were I met a gnarlroot wargrove which I knew none of the rules and boy did I pay! I lost most of my army by turn 2. Dropping back down my final game was against aetherwing stormcast. I was winning this game quite comfortably my greatswords managed to kill so much and my opponent even offered the hand shake but I said we should play out for vp's. He ended up winning!! It was three places of power and he managed to kill all of my hero's pipping on points. If I would had rolled 4 on one dice it would have meant I would won the game. It was a brilliant game.

I was really impressed with the balance of my list. The crossbows were the talk of the tournament after game one. I suppose not many people see a freeguild army these days!

Here are blurry pics I took




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hugh Halligan]

So I went to my first one day tournament and had blast!

I ended up taking the following:

blob:http://www.scrollbuilder.com/df3a75b3-25f9-4277-bcbd-1abbb53a2bc1

My first game was against death with a mourngul, big unit of skeletons and lots of vampires including Vlad and Isobella. It turns out mournguls do not like 60 crossbows hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s and I killed it in turn 1. I managed to win this game taking his army off which took me to the top tables were I met a gnarlroot wargrove which I knew none of the rules and boy did I pay! I lost most of my army by turn 2. Dropping back down my final game was against aetherwing stormcast. I was winning this game quite comfortably my greatswords managed to kill so much and my opponent even offered the hand shake but I said we should play out for vp's. He ended up winning!! It was three places of power and he managed to kill all of my hero's pipping on points. If I would had rolled 4 on one dice it would have meant I would won the game. It was a brilliant game.

I was really impressed with the balance of my list. The crossbows were the talk of the tournament after game one. I suppose not many people see a freeguild army these days!

Here are blurry pics I took




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote


I think this link works for the army list

http://bit.ly/2pCjctg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jobume]

Really nice tourney report and a nice, balanced army. I find the Free people lots of fun to play, but not really strong enough to compete with the big boys.

[Hugh Halligan]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:25 AM, jobume said:

Really nice tourney report and a nice, balanced army. I find the Free people lots of fun to play, but not really strong enough to compete with the big boys.

I am still trying to work out whether the army can be competitive.  I should have beaten the stormcast army,  but I am not sure what I could have done to beat the sylvaneth army.  Im facing a tzeentch army tonight so lets see how my boys hold up against them!!! 

[jobume]

I played in a mini-tournament today. It was three games, with the first game at 1000pts and the two following games at 2000pts.

I used the following:

1000pts:

1x Celestial Hurricanum

1x Freeguild General

30x Xbowmen

10x Freeguild handgunners

10x Freeguild handgunners

10x Freeguild guard

At 2000pts I added the following:

1x Celestial Hurricanum

1x Luminark of Hysh

16x Knights of the Realm

The first game was Border war against Moonclan Grots. The Grots came at me too fast and I couldn't get on to the objectives. I managed to kill most of his army, but lost big on objective points.

The second game, now at 2000p was against Wanderers with Waystone pathfinders in Three places of power. I managed to kill most of his heroes with the Luminark and my Celestial Hurricanums and the game was over by turn three. Seems like a really tough scenario for the Wanderers.

The third game, at 2000p, was against a mixed Death army in Gift from the heavens. I tried to be a little too clever in this one and gave my opponent the first double turn, hoping he would crash in to my chaff line, so that I could then destroy him in my following turn. This would also give me the advantage of knowing were both comets were when doing my turn 2. However, I did not realize that his Vampire lord on Zombie dragon, Spirits hosts and Vargheists could fly over my chaff line, and get into my back field. This resulted in the Vampire lord murdering one of my Hurricanums and a big block of spirit hosts camping in the center of my army. I did not get a double turn back, and lost on objective points once again, 9-2.

I think I played the third game really bad, and could probably have gotten at least a draw out of it. I don't know about the first game. Grots seem really strong at 1000p.

// Job

 

[Hugh Halligan]

Interesting list - you do not often see two hurricanums!! How did the knights of the realm perform? Your army looks great on the board! 

Where did you get those movement trays from I think I am going to need them for my next tournament. 

[Hugh Halligan]

On 5/31/2017 at 1:18 PM, Hugh Halligan said:

I am still trying to work out whether the army can be competitive.  I should have beaten the stormcast army,  but I am not sure what I could have done to beat the sylvaneth army.  Im facing a tzeentch army tonight so lets see how my boys hold up against them!!! 

Played the tzeentch army.

My 2000pt list: 

Hurricanum

General - warbanner - shield - tenacious 

General on Griffon - Hammer - Quick silver potion

40x xbows

20 greatswords

6 demis

10 x swordmen 

10 x swordmen 

 

We played escalation and I think I set up pretty well. The aim was to secure two objectives and kill his chaff units so he couldnt score.  However, I got completely side tracked by archaon and I felt that 80 xbow shots hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s would take him out but I what with his 2up save and passing wounds onto other units I only caused 4 wounds!!!  This was a massive error as if I were to stick to my original plan of shooting off the pink & blue horrors I should have won the battle. Lesson learnt is to ignore the big guy and focus on the objectives. 

I think I had the weapons to win this but in the end I got smashed! 

I tried out Demis for the first time and they were fairly underwhelming! but I will give them a couple more games to see if i can find a use for them!