Returning player seeks advice for dwarfs

[apologist]

I'm looking to take my dwarfs back onto the front line, but there's a lot to take in about how the setting work! I always like to build some background material to help get me into the spirit of the game, and wondered if the TGA community could offer some thoughts and opinions to help me refine the broad ideas I'm outlining below, to help fit them into the brave new world of the Realms.

I (and my gaming group) have ummed and erred about getting into Age of Sigmar proper, and the new Cities of Sigmar offers me a way in. I hope you can give me some ideas on how best to field my forces. Thanks!

Overview

First off, I have very little experience of playing Age of Sigmar beyond one or two small introductory games, which I enjoyed. However, I've been playing for a while and am part of a gaming group that's fairly liberal in terms of rules – we're quite happy to play with counts-as or make up our own rules. However, I'd like to minimise the amount of that that I need to do, as it'd be good to understand how the game works more generally, in case I end up getting a game in against someone new.

While I liked the characterisation of the dawi of the Old World a great deal, I don't feel I want to recreate that. AoS seems to offer some more creative space to play with and personalise my dwarf force. Neither the Fyreslayers nor Overlords really grabbed me – they both have great touches, but the core appeal of the dwarfs to me is the pseudo-Norse feel.

For that reason, I'd like to avoid blackpowder weaponry; instead looking for crossbows, catapults etc. While I'm open to magical stuff – this is a fantasy game, after all – I'd like the focus to be relatively 'low fantasy', so that magic items and events really stand out. 

At the core of the army, I'd like to use my existing models, which are mainly the modern plastics. 

 

Specific questions

• In background terms, would there be any 'oddness' to most AoS players to have an army completely consisting of Dwarfs? 
• Similarly, would the absence of blackpowder tech seem odd, or could that be explained by the city being based in (say) the Realm of Beasts?
• The Cities of Sigmar book means I have to pick a city. How can I reconcile that with the question above?
• The new Cities of Sigmar allows me to use lots of my models as-is – the majority are Ironbreakers, Longbeards and Hammerers. However, I've also got a regiment of dwarfs with crossbows (veterans of 3rd ed. Warhammer, when I last properly played!). Am I better off using these to count-as Free Cities Crossbows, or is there a way to 'ally in' dwarf Quarrellers?
• Do dwarf clan warriors  (i.e. not the elite Ironbreakers, Hammerers etc.) exist any more? Is there a way to field them within the Cities of Sigmar book, or will they have to be counts-as Freeguild Guard?

Thanks in advance for your help (and patience!)

[JPjr]

33 minutes ago, apologist said:

Specific questions

• In background terms, would there be any 'oddness' to most AoS players to have an army completely consisting of Dwarfs? 

If you're entering a tournament and you're running a sub-optimal Duardin only list then you might get some raised eyebrows from the more competitive sorts but for anyone else I can't see why. In pure background terms certainly not. Now personally the idea of CoS armies made up of disparate 'races' actually appeals and is something I was hoping for but there's nothing that precludes people 'keeping to themselves' and you can easily come up with a nice story for them, it's not like the idea of clans and the importance of kinship has diminished in AoS.

So you could have a Dwarf hold that was overrun during the Age of Chaos and rather than retreat to Azyr and merge into the wider populace they stayed to together and went into hiding. There's at least one story in BL fiction about a tribe of Duardin in Shyish who have been besieged by Slaaneshi forces for years, hiding out in mountain fastnesses, so it works.

Or alternatively when the gates of Azyr were reopened and the first great cities were built, well we've read about the larger ones but what if a Guardian chief decided to take back his ancestral home, or just to create a new hold, that's going to have happened and so you have an all Dwarf army.

40 minutes ago, apologist said:

Similarly, would the absence of blackpowder tech seem odd, or could that be explained by the city being based in (say) the Realm of Beasts?

Exactly explain away in any way shape or form. Maybe when their hold was overrun in the Age of Chaos it was because their cannons and tech failed or were sabotaged and so now they don't trust that stuff or they've vowed never to use it against. A grudge against gunpowder! Or maybe they're traditionalists, an enclave of Duardin that believe the race has lost its way and need to go back to basics and that modern stuff was what made them weak and able to be beaten by chaos.

"WITH STONE & HAMMER,
AND HAMMER & STONE,
A DUARDIN'S FATE,
REMAINS HIS OWN"

45 minutes ago, apologist said:

The Cities of Sigmar book means I have to pick a city. How can I reconcile that with the question above?

Pick the city whose rules most closely match what you want to do and then you just use that with your own city name and background. Think of the official names and flavour of these things just as a skin that can be changed.

For example Ben Jonson recently has done some steam tanks that in his army he's given magic artefacts to, but rather than take it literally that this tank has a cloak of flying or whatever, he's just interpreted that and so kept the rules but added KO style balloons to the tanks.

I've had an idea for something similar with a steam tank that I want to do as though it has an ethereal amulet, but instead of being literal I want to cover the tank in little Tesla coils and the like and so it's like a techno version, basically a steam tank version of the Philadelphia Experiment and it's actually phasing in and out of reality.

50 minutes ago, apologist said:

The new Cities of Sigmar allows me to use lots of my models as-is – the majority are Ironbreakers, Longbeards and Hammerers. However, I've also got a regiment of dwarfs with crossbows (veterans of 3rd ed. Warhammer, when I last properly played!). Am I better off using these to count-as Free Cities Crossbows, or is there a way to 'ally in' dwarf Quarrellers?

Personally I'd use them as 'Free Cities crossbows', just because there will be rules, abilities, synergies etc that will work better and as intended then. Apart from base size there's no difference (in fact there might not be a difference there either) so I'd say use the new rules, war scrolls etc. Certainly it sounds like no one in the group you're in would have a problem and you'll get more out of them that way.

52 minutes ago, apologist said:

Do dwarf clan warriors  (i.e. not the elite Ironbreakers, Hammerers etc.) exist any more? Is there a way to field them within the Cities of Sigmar book, or will they have to be counts-as Freeguild Guard?

Again personally I'd use the equivalent war scroll from the new book, as before there will be various synergies or battleline requirements or the like that they can fill in then and you have everything in one book/place.

 

Have fun!
 

[Arkhanist]

Welcome in, I think Cities of Sigmar is indeed a way 'in' to AoS for us players with older collections that haven't been very good up until now - it's certainly finally got me dusting off my old dwarfs to join AoS. I'm no AoS vet, so I can't speak to that side of it, but I can give you my twopenneth.

Quote

• In background terms, would there be any 'oddness' to most AoS players to have an army completely consisting of Dwarfs? 
• Similarly, would the absence of blackpowder tech seem odd, or could that be explained by the city being based in (say) the Realm of Beasts?
• The Cities of Sigmar book means I have to pick a city. How can I reconcile that with the question above?

GW seem to be going quite a long way towards encouraging customisation and fluff for Cities of Sigmar. There's this community article, in which 2 of the 3 cities showcased are entirely player invention.

So in terms of rules, you have to pick 1 of the 7 - but there's no rule requiring you to paint them a certain way, nor what fluff you can use with them. So although you need to use one of the existing keywords instead of making one up, you can have your own city with your own scheme and fluff, and just have it fight 'as' Tempest's Eye or whatever. The only wrinkle is that realm artifacts can only come from the official city realm, so if your fluff city is based in Ghur, but you play as say Living City, your artifacts can only come from their realm, the realm of life, but that's a pretty minor problem. Tournaments that give bonus hobby points for using the 'official' scheme for your army may also penalise you, but that is also a pretty minor issue in the grand scheme.

As long as what you have is clearly represented on the table to match the warscroll, and can't be confused for something else you'll be fine.

It's not hard to imagine duardin in the Living City (or equivalent fluff version) forsaking gunpowder, or indeed even being a primarily duardin city, so I think in terms of background, you have a lot of flexibility to do whatever takes your fancy.

33 minutes ago, apologist said:

• The new Cities of Sigmar allows me to use lots of my models as-is – the majority are Ironbreakers, Longbeards and Hammerers. However, I've also got a regiment of dwarfs with crossbows (veterans of 3rd ed. Warhammer, when I last properly played!). Am I better off using these to count-as Free Cities Crossbows, or is there a way to 'ally in' dwarf Quarrellers?
• Do dwarf clan warriors  (i.e. not the elite Ironbreakers, Hammerers etc.) exist any more? Is there a way to field them within the Cities of Sigmar book, or will they have to be counts-as Freeguild Guard?

The old dispossessed that got dropped still have warscrolls with points. They can't be allied into CoS as 'dispossessed' aren't an allowed ally faction. Personally I'm reluctant to use my old ones as count-as freeguild crossbowmen (or thunderers as handgunners) as the movement values are different to other duardin and they do still exist as a valid unit - just not in that particular army, so mine are getting a long deserved retirement. Others intend to count as because they're 'close enough', so it rather depends upon how local group feels about 'counts as' generally, and yours sound easily flexible enough to do that.

Similarly, the old war machines are gone bar the gyros.

For old warriors, they're easily distinguishable from ironbreakers and hammerers, so the best bet is to use them as Longbeards. Greenstuffing on longer beards is optional, but a fun project. Many of my old metal warriors are old enough to legally drink, so I have no problem to count them as veterans!

 

In terms of making a functional army, three units and two characters isn't much to build with. There's a *lot* of other warscrolls in the book, plus allying stormcast, kharadron or sylvaneth depending on 'host' city. Dwarfs are maybe not the most competitive units in the book as they lack a battalion, but they're still plenty solid to build an army around. But wood elf archers or dark elves or freeguild or stormcast ballista can fill in your missile gap, there's monsters and cavalry aplenty and whatever flavour of magicians you think fits.

Nice looking dwarfs, I'm sure it'll be a great looking army whichever way you go.

[zilberfrid]

So pseudo vikings, right?

Living city reflects the uncertainty of the European settlements of where they would strike.

Hold the line fits shield walls very well.

Give a general on foot a dane axe, and he'd fit the current general quite well.

Sword-shield guys would go well to replace dwarf warriors. Not overly protected, but well enough if you use a shield. Halberds could work too, and shields are a classical viking weapon.

Quarrelers are not quite viking bowmen, but you could use the crossbowmen profile.

Having personal guard for a leader fits the greatswords (if you, again, use long axes).

One grey battlemage (missing an eye, of course) with both phoenixes painted mostly black would be really thematic.

If you really want to go wild, use prosecutors or knights Azyros as dwarven valkyries.

[apologist]

Thanks all for the considered thoughts. Very much appreciated; and – to be honest – quite a relief to hear the answers. I hope the 'Realms' would offer a huge creative space, and it's sounding like they're intended to be large enough to hide an independent city/fortress in, rather than fully mapped-out by GW themselves. Is that fair to say?

If that is the case, I think I'll have a closer look at the various realms and see which one appeals, then begin to build around that. I'm not averse to adding in some non-dwarf elements, but I want to have the 'core' of the dwarf city established before allowing in any manlings or tricksy elves. The advice above has given me lots of options and ideas for things like the crossbow dwarfs, so I'll again have a closer look. 

In terms of picking a realm... 

1. From the little I understand, Aqshy is the sort of 'default' space for humans, elves and dwarfs; but anything can turn up in any realm. Have I got the wrong end of the stick, or is that broadly right?
2. I thought I had read that the inhabitants of various realms picked up aspects of the realm – so the dwarfs from the Realm of Metal, for example, would have a metallic sheen to their skin (or similar), while those from the Realm of Death might be more gaunt and humourless. Again, is that correct? Are there any existing stories or bits of background that hint at or detail specific realms?
   • On a related note, are all Fyreslayers from the Realm of Fire? 
3. Can dwarfs exist in any of the eight realms, or are some Realms exclusive to certain factions?
4. What happens to a dwarf from (say) the Realm of Beasts if they go to another realm? Do they retain their 'beastiness', or change somehow?

Thanks again for your help. I find the background fascinating, but quite hard to get a grip on.

[michu]

7 minutes ago, apologist said:

I hope the 'Realms' would offer a huge creative space, and it's sounding like they're intended to be large enough to hide an independent city/fortress in, rather than fully mapped-out by GW themselves. Is that fair to say?

Quite. Just one continent in the Mortal Realms can have bigger area than our whole Earth. And they're not single biome worlds like some people think. You can put everything here, so one independent fortress is no big deal. And GW said that there will be more maps but they will never map out whole Mortal Realms.

[JPjr]

4 minutes ago, apologist said:

and it's sounding like they're intended to be large enough to hide an independent city/fortress in, rather than fully mapped-out by GW themselves. Is that fair to say?

intentionally so, one of the issues with the old world was it was both too small & too big. too small in that it was so mapped out there wasn't much room for 'your dudes' left, too big in that some people had issues with things like why are these Amazonian lizards fighting Chaos bros from Scandinavia? The mortal realms both provides unlimited space to create your own games and campaigns within and also thanks to MAGIC and realm gates a reason why people from these different realms might interact and get around the vast distances.

6 minutes ago, apologist said:

In terms of picking a realm... 

1. From the little I understand, Aqshy is the sort of 'default' space for humans, elves and dwarfs; but anything can turn up in any realm. Have I got the wrong end of the stick, or is that broadly right?

I wouldn't say 'default' I just think they focused on that area first and have given it (and certainly places like Hammerhal) more attention. Pretty much all the realms are teeming with life (and unlife), whilst there's some connections between certain races/factions and specific realms (Sylvaneth/Ghyran, All Death/Shyish, Orruks/Ghur, KO/Chamon etc) these are reasonably loose and you have, for example Sylvaneth throughout all the realms.

10 minutes ago, apologist said:

I thought I had read that the inhabitants of various realms picked up aspects of the realm – so the dwarfs from the Realm of Metal, for example, would have a metallic sheen to their skin (or similar), while those from the Realm of Death might be more gaunt and humourless. Again, is that correct? Are there any existing stories or bits of background that hint at or detail specific realms?

• On a related note, are all Fyreslayers from the Realm of Fire? 

 

Yes in certain ways, and it can be interpreted in lots of different ways. Often it's more about temperament, people from Aqshy are often described as passionate through to outright belligerent, inhabitants of Shyish do often reflect that too (read up on the Gazul-Zagaz, a tribe of Shyish Duardin in a couple of Josh Reynolds books).

We've also had stories of Aelves and Duardin from Ulgu, who have taken on that realms secretive nature, and so on and so on.

I can't quite think off the top of my head of stories where we see people who have taken on aspects of the realms in a physical sense, though I've certainly seen models that represent that. I can certainly see it with races like Sylvaneth though who are more magical in nature and so more likely to be even more representative of their homes (ironwood trees in Chamon etc).

Fyreslayers are mostly in Aqshy yes, but not exclusively. There's the Ulrung lodge in Shyish for example, so again put them where you want.

18 minutes ago, apologist said:

Can dwarfs exist in any of the eight realms, or are some Realms exclusive to certain factions?

Nope anyone can pretty much live anywhere. As I said there are some realms that seem more suited to certain races but nothing to stop them living wherever you want them to.

19 minutes ago, apologist said:

What happens to a dwarf from (say) the Realm of Beasts if they go to another realm? Do they retain their 'beastiness', or change somehow?

Generally speaking, I would say they retain their 'beastiness', now you could easily argue that whilst you're in a realm (or at least the more magical parts of it) you may be influenced by its properties. But you'd retain your core personality which would have been shaped over years living where you did. So like if I moved to America, I might slowly become more of an arsehole over time but it wouldn't immediately override my innate British nature of being a supercilious ******, over time I'd probably just become some awful mega-******.

There's a story (Soul Wars actually I think) where one of the Sacrosanct stormcast (Balthus, again I think) can kind of detect an aura around people from the realm they were born in, despite them living in a different one now.

[Gecktron]

2 hours ago, apologist said:

In terms of picking a realm... 

1. From the little I understand, Aqshy is the sort of 'default' space for humans, elves and dwarfs; but anything can turn up in any realm. Have I got the wrong end of the stick, or is that broadly right?
2. I thought I had read that the inhabitants of various realms picked up aspects of the realm – so the dwarfs from the Realm of Metal, for example, would have a metallic sheen to their skin (or similar), while those from the Realm of Death might be more gaunt and humourless. Again, is that correct? Are there any existing stories or bits of background that hint at or detail specific realms?
   • On a related note, are all Fyreslayers from the Realm of Fire? 
3. Can dwarfs exist in any of the eight realms, or are some Realms exclusive to certain factions?
4. What happens to a dwarf from (say) the Realm of Beasts if they go to another realm? Do they retain their 'beastiness', or change somehow?

Thanks again for your help. I find the background fascinating, but quite hard to get a grip on.

Great to see you here on TGA, I really enjoy your blog and 40K content! 

Now to the topic on hand:

1. Yeah, you can find every race and any faction across the 7 realms (Azyr is unique as its the stronghold of Order). Some factions may prefer one realm over the others (because they originated there, or have their capital in a specific realm), but that doesnt mean you wont find enclaves all over the realms.

For example Fyreslayer. Fyreslayers originated in the Realm of Aqshy, but there are also Lodges in Ghur, for example the Lofnir Lodge (famed for the huge number of Magmadroths they bring into battle). 

Also, just to clear some things up, Aqshy isnt the default realm. Its just that the very early lore was centered around the Realm Gate Wars campaign in Aqshy. Both Aqshy and Ghyran are mostly in the hand of the forces of Order. 

 

2. Thats true... sometimes. People are affected by their enviornment and take on certain aspects, but they dont always manifest the same way. These things can also be more subtile. Maybe some Duardin from Ghyran grow a bit taller, maybe Aelfs from Ulgu see better in the dark. The new Cities of Sigmar battletome mentions that people from Asqhy are famed for being good fighters. You can go wild if you want to.

Coming back to Fyreslayers, they can be from what ever realm you want (Fyreslayers from Shyish in a sickly green color scheme who burn their dead so they dont come back as skeletons or zombies; Fyreslayers from Ghur who craft all their armor and weapons from the bones of slain beasts; etc...)

 

3. All the realms. Either in the new founded Free Cities of Order or in reclaimed Mountainholds (or as Kharadrons in their Skyports, Fyreslyers in their lodges or even as Root Kings in giant tree cities). 

 

4. This is a bit like Nature vs. Nurture. Maybe they are born more aggressive, maybe they became like this to survive in this environment? 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Gecktron

[Kramer]

17 hours ago, apologist said:

Specific questions

• In background terms, would there be any 'oddness' to most AoS players to have an army completely consisting of Dwarfs? 
• Similarly, would the absence of blackpowder tech seem odd, or could that be explained by the city being based in (say) the Realm of Beasts?
• The Cities of Sigmar book means I have to pick a city. How can I reconcile that with the question above?
• The new Cities of Sigmar allows me to use lots of my models as-is – the majority are Ironbreakers, Longbeards and Hammerers. However, I've also got a regiment of dwarfs with crossbows (veterans of 3rd ed. Warhammer, when I last properly played!). Am I better off using these to count-as Free Cities Crossbows, or is there a way to 'ally in' dwarf Quarrellers?
• Do dwarf clan warriors  (i.e. not the elite Ironbreakers, Hammerers etc.) exist any more? Is there a way to field them within the Cities of Sigmar book, or will they have to be counts-as Freeguild Guard?

First off. very well painted. Love your style and love the Lord on shield. That one is sadly still missing from my collection. 
1. No. But it is currently rare but I suspect Cities of sigmar will change that a bit. 
2. narratively it’s a great fix to say their from ghur  and hence don’t have blackpowder. For your group it sounds like a solution that will excite people as well. Now that crossbow wielding dwarfs are non existent it’s also hard to confuse them and they will be an easy proxy. 
3. the only thing in there is that the cities are tied to a realm. But for narrative purposes that really doesn’t matter. Write the Ghur backstory, pick the city you feel fits the best and use those rules for it. Basically a name swap. From a more competitive point of view it does mean you must choose relics from that realm and not ghur if you use the artefact from the malign sorcery set. But hey, that’s a name swap and done as well.

4. Allying in rules wise no. If your friends don’t mind probably yes? Dwarves artillery will be fine in our play group. Outside of that only if your opponent agrees.  
5. yes they still have rules but it’s the same as question 4. 

[apologist]

Thanks for the continuing help and ideas (and the kind words!) – it's been hugely helpful to have my misconceptions cleared up.

I now need to sit down and work through where  I want to site the dwarfs' fortress. I'm leaning toward Ghur, as that seems to fit nicely with the no-black powder thing, and provides an excuse to have the Throng of Nog being rather more aggressive than might be typical for Old World Dawi. Other options are the Realms of Life, Shadow or Death; mainly owing to the forces my regular gaming partners are likely to be – orcs, wood elves and ghouls.

 

[zilberfrid]

44 minutes ago, apologist said:

Thanks for the continuing help and ideas (and the kind words!) – it's been hugely helpful to have my misconceptions cleared up.

I now need to sit down and work through where  I want to site the dwarfs' fortress. I'm leaning toward Ghur, as that seems to fit nicely with the no-black powder thing, and provides an excuse to have the Throng of Nog being rather more aggressive than might be typical for Old World Dawi. Other options are the Realms of Life, Shadow or Death; mainly owing to the forces my regular gaming partners are likely to be – orcs, wood elves and ghouls.

The issue there is that the cities are only in Aqshi or Ghyran. Lack of powder here could mean there are fire mites in Aqshi that make black powder too dangerous, or the dwarves have a living arrangement with the Sylvaneth that does not allow black powder.

[Arkhanist]

Player-made cities can be in any of the realms (apart from Azyr, maybe?) - Rikki's city is in Ulgu, for example.

All the current host 'count-as' cities are only from Aqshy and Ghyran. So depending which city keyword you pick forces the source realm choice, bar Hammerhal, where you can pick either. So the net effect is that you can only choose from Aqyshy or Ghyran realm artefacts (as appropriate) or the city-specific ones of your host, which is a restriction, but one all CoS armies have.

But for fluff purposes, it's not really an issue.

[blargly]

I've also got a dwarf army I'll be porting in, so I've given this some thought as well. I originally thought I would just port over any old units to free guild/ironweld equivalents. However, two of my opponents field wood elves and old greenskins, and they might not wish to proxy.

I'll be proposing that some of the legacy ranges will simply be allowed to play as part of an army (they gain the CoS and Dispossessed or Wanderer keywords). That way, we can play with warscrolls of those units and have some actual variety in our forces. The old warscrolls/points don't seem particularly generous so I can't see any real balance issues arising.

In terms of realms then yes - according to CoS restrictions you'll be based in either life or fire. But you could still write the lore of your army as heralding from elsewhere. They just happened to pick up artefacts on a venture into Aqshy!

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Player-made cities can be in any of the realms (apart from Azyr, maybe?) - Rikki's city is in Ulgu, for example.

All the current host 'count-as' cities are only from Aqshy and Ghyran. So depending which city keyword you pick forces the source realm choice, bar Hammerhal, where you can pick either. So the net effect is that you can only choose from Aqyshy or Ghyran realm artefacts (as appropriate) or the city-specific ones of your host, which is a restriction, but one all CoS armies have.

But for fluff purposes, it's not really an issue.

I think there's also something about in which realm you'll play (higher chances of Ghyran if your army is from Ghyran etc), but yeah, it's mostly the artifact list, and we don't have a ton of batallions (I'd liked to have had one for each of the factions, not just the cities), so not too many artifacts per army.

[apologist]

The origin of the city will be in the lore, so I don't think that'll cause too many ructions. In any case, are the artefacts compulsory? If not, I've always got the option of simply not taking one, right?

[zilberfrid]

4 minutes ago, apologist said:

The origin of the city will be in the lore, so I don't think that'll cause too many ructions. In any case, are the artefacts compulsory? If not, I've always got the option of simply not taking one, right?

They are not compulsory, but do give some nice flexibility. That said, if you glue a Kharadron float orb to your hero to indicate a thermalrider cloak, that'll work fine, and it doesn't scream Aqshi at all.

[apologist]

Brill, ta. I think that's probably the route I'll take – work out where I want my fortress/city/settlement to sit in terms of the lore; then work out how best to represent it within the strictures of the rules. If I decide to take an artefact, I'll use the rules as written, but 'reskin' it as something appropriate to the lore.

In terms of the artefacts, are those in the Age of Sigmar Gaming book that was recently released, or are they in the Cities of Sigmar army book?

[michu]

CoS artefacts are in the CoS book but realm artefacts are in the gaming book.