AoS 2 - Phoenicium Discussion

[readercolin]

I'm not sure I agree that shadow warriors are required.  Don't get me wrong - I'm having fun with them, and it does become a bit easier to counter deploy when you can null deploy for the first few drops.  I also just finished painting up 50 of them, and am looking for excuses to field them.  However, I think it would be just as valid to throw down some blocks of freeguild crossbows, or a block of irondrakes with a bridge, or bring some Judicators to have a tougher shooting threat.  Stormdrake Guard are still good, and you can certainly continue running them, just like in every other city.

My bricks of phoenix guard can't really affect the opponent turn 1 unless they come close.  Running larger bricks also means that I have less ability to spread out, but at the same time, it also forces my opponents to commit hard to kill a brick.  But 2 bricks of phoenix guard are also going to take objectives and leave enough room in the list for a solid shooting threat to give you game in matches where you would otherwise struggle.

As for wounds vs the big tanks, I haven't faced a Kragnos, but I have run against Stormdrake Guard a few times.  I haven't run into any issues killing them though, even without mortal wounds, just because you are throwing a lot of rend -1 attacks at your opponents. Yes, if you were concentrating all that power on 1 thing, rend -1 is pretty easy to ignore with all the save stacking going around.  However, because the Phoenicium pushes you to engage on a number of fronts at once, most of the time save stacking is good for making 1 unit really strong, but doesn't work as well when you spread the damage across a large number of units.

As for the flamespyre phoenix... you cannot count on its mortal wounds ability.  Generally, I am given turn 1, and I cannot fly over anything.  Turn 2, I usually get 1 round of mortals in, but then either sit back to ensure that I don't get roared and can use living idols, or it has to dive into combat.  Turn 3, it is either stuck in combat or dead, and you can't drop mortals in a retreat move, and turns 4+ I am either in a commanding position with the phoenix sitting on objectives, or I am more worried about getting to objectives and not trying to drop bombs.  So on average, I usually get 1 round of fire poop per game.  Yes, they REALLY need to errata that from Normal Move to "normal move, run or retreat".

Overall, I think that the Phoenicium is pretty forgiving for what you want to run.  You really don't want to be losing models outside the combat phase, and you will want to be able to screen any shooting units you have, or anything that really wants to get a charge off.  But I think that you would be pretty safe to just drop the magic from the army and rely on melee and shooting.  So if you have some stormstrike chariots - run them.  Test things out and see what works.  But don't forget about what works in other cities armies, as you can probably get that to work here as well.

[basement dweller]

Fair point on not needing the shadow warriors and their role can be filled by shooting or other units.  I guess i like them not getting shot and knowing they will get to shoot at least once before dying.  They can also serve to screen, shoot, harass other shooters, claim objectives depending on the game and the opponent. I feel they are more versatile than shooters qnd provide some needed mobility...but dont kill things as well as dedicated shooters would.

Ive ponderd pistoliers/chariots/dedicated shooters as alternatives.  I will experiment with them as see whats works....for my play style at least.  I have 1 stormstrike chariot so may squeeze him in.

Thanks for the feedback on the flamespyre.  Your reports made me feel like he was a MW machine...so your dose of reality is helpful.

[Popisdead]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:42 AM, readercolin said:

  I also just finished painting up 50 of them, and am looking for excuses to field them. 

...

Overall, I think that the Phoenicium is pretty forgiving for what you want to run.  You really don't want to be losing models outside the combat phase, and you will want to be able to screen any shooting units you have, or anything that really wants to get a charge off.  But I think that you would be pretty safe to just drop the magic from the army and rely on melee and shooting.  So if you have some stormstrike chariots - run them.  Test things out and see what works.  But don't forget about what works in other cities armies, as you can probably get that to work here as well.

goodness gracious, did you read Gav Thorpe's Alith Anar and want to paint the batman army?

Kind thanks for the final tips. Good perspective to think about.

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

goodness gracious, did you read Gav Thorpe's Alith Anar and want to paint the batman army?

Kind thanks for the final tips. Good perspective to think about.

Lol.  No, I had 24 glade guard, 16 high elf archers, 6 way watchers, and enough bits to convert another 4 elven archers to get me up to 50 (the above models were from my fantasy armies).  I also got the Khanite shadow stalkers box, which have a number of great "assassin" models, so now I have 6 assassin's.  Yes, I totally plan to run 5 assassin's and 50 shadow warriors at least once.  Will it be good? Doubtful.  Will it be fun?  Absolutely.

[basement dweller]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

Lol.  No, I had 24 glade guard, 16 high elf archers, 6 way watchers, and enough bits to convert another 4 elven archers to get me up to 50 (the above models were from my fantasy armies).  I also got the Khanite shadow stalkers box, which have a number of great "assassin" models, so now I have 6 assassin's.  Yes, I totally plan to run 5 assassin's and 50 shadow warriors at least once.  Will it be good? Doubtful.  Will it be fun?  Absolutely.

Thats insane...and hillarious.  Im up to 4 assassins models with my old fantasy dark elves included and 20 shadow stalkers.  Now i have a goal to get to 6 and 50...

[Popisdead]

17 hours ago, readercolin said:

Lol.  No, I had 24 glade guard, 16 high elf archers, 6 way watchers, and enough bits to convert another 4 elven archers to get me up to 50 (the above models were from my fantasy armies). 

That's funny, at one point I had 90 GG during 8th ed but got sold off 1/3 and converted others to Darkswords and the rest to SotW by scrouging flaming bows and using all my Waywatchers as well.

[basement dweller]

Played another game today with the phoenicium list.  I used Jeremy's lvo list ( 2 frost phoenixes, hurricanum, 3 x 10 phoenix guard, 2 x 10 shadow warriors, 3 assassins and a chariot)

Opponent wanted to use a newly painted kragnos so he came...plus a bunch of orruks...2 units of pigs, 2 unit of ard boys, some brutes, megaboss, incantor, shaman...maybe some stuff i forgot.

Chariot earned its 80 points...got an objective early and tied up too many models to bring it down.  It did so well i sent over the 2 units of shadow stalkers and an assassin and the took the left side of the board.

Shadow warriors had a good day...one unit made the 9 inch charge qnd worked over some ard boys before being wiped out.  The assassin and the other unit of shapow warriors finshed off the ard boys and the brutes.

I castled up with everything else.  Took the right side of the table and then pushed for the middle.  The 4+ ward was in full effect and nothing was dying.  Kragnos charged a phoenix and i thought he was doomed....but poor roll on the charge mortal wound attack and some great ward saves the phoenix stood up to him...mush to the frsutration of my opponent.

I was looking to replace the hurricanum in this list...but with no opposition shooting it poored out the mortal wounds to the orcs all game and earned it points back.  Never failed a cast which was nice too.

We called it after 4 turns.  I had the points advantage and my opponent would need some good luck to turn the tide.

Second game and the 4+ ward once again frustrated my opponent.  I rolled well and could have easily lost...but happy with this list and its really enjoyable.  Dropping 20 shadow warriors and 3 assassins in a turn is super fun qnd shifts the balance of everything on the board.  Id like another cheap, mobile piece but not sure how best to do that yet.

 

 

 

 

[JackStreicher]

Guys, we really need to talk about flees.

[JackStreicher]

In the Black Talon Audiobook there’s tribes of humans riding rather similar insectoids through the swamps.

 

So I am buzzing with conversion ideas right now. I intend to convert these flees to Demigryph Knights or Wild Riders - some decent CoS Cavalry.

now: Any suggestions what parts to use? The more input the better!

(images are below)

Edited March 25, 2022 by JackStreicher

[readercolin]

9 hours ago, basement dweller said:

Played another game today with the phoenicium list.  I used Jeremy's lvo list ( 2 frost phoenixes, hurricanum, 3 x 10 phoenix guard, 2 x 10 shadow warriors, 3 assassins and a chariot)

...

Second game and the 4+ ward once again frustrated my opponent.  I rolled well and could have easily lost...but happy with this list and its really enjoyable.  Dropping 20 shadow warriors and 3 assassins in a turn is super fun qnd shifts the balance of everything on the board.  Id like another cheap, mobile piece but not sure how best to do that yet.

Sounds like some fun games.  Did you have issues with phoenix guard against kragnos?  I haven't actually played against a kragnos yet, so I'm not sure how well/poorly that will play out.

As for other cheap mobile pieces, I'm a bit up in the air.  On the one hand, you could look at running something like Outriders to get a fast moving shooting threat that can sit on objectives, or tag objectives and plink away.  Alternatively, they can be used to screen out large areas of the board with their cavalry bases.  However, they also really want to be near the hurricanum, which means you don't want to drop the hurricanum to make room for them, but you also can't really drop a phoenix or you lose redundancy for the Living Idols ability.  But if you drop the shadow warriors, you lose deep strike abilities (maybe compensated for by the fast movement?), which leaves the assassins as the only real thing that you can drop, but they are so cheap that dropping them doesn't add all that much room.  Finally, as 2 wound models, you can't pop assassins out of them, making them a bit of a non-bo.

The only other cheap unit I can see bringing is gyrocopters/bombers.  These have the advantage of being fast moving, have some mortal wound potential, and can plink away at things from a distance.  However, they are pretty useless in melee, and their damage output is... not exactly anything to write home about either.  I'm actually planning to try a few of these out, but I'm doing that because I have some old metal hawk riders that I'm going to paint up as mini-phoenix's and call them gyrobombers, not because I think that they are going to be particularly "good".

Outside of those units though, nothing else really comes in as cheap mobile pieces.  You can get some expensive mobile pieces with things like Demigryph Knights, or running some stormcast units (ex. tempestors), but you end up giving up so much other stuff to get them in that their usefulness becomes questionable.

[basement dweller]

8 hours ago, readercolin said:

Sounds like some fun games.  Did you have issues with phoenix guard against kragnos?  I haven't actually played against a kragnos yet, so I'm not sure how well/poorly that will play out.

Not sure i got the fulll kragnos experience but it went well.  My opponent placed kragnos between the left and center objectives assuming i would castle in the middle.  I instead castled on the far right and minimized his time to earn his points back.  His mw on the charge against monsters is rhe scariest thing but he roll a 2 and 3 for 6 mortals...and i passed 5 of those 6 with the ward save.  

We have a lot of rend 1 which when spammed is very helpful.  Also hitting on 2s a lot of the time, the volume of quality attacks makes up for the lack of high rend.  As well, attacking on many fronts prevented them from armour stacking as they wanted to protect squishier units...so i did solid damage to him.  I think we have the tools to deal with him...as long as our ward saves are statiscally average or beyter, it will minimize his mortal output...unless he rolls well and you wont get enough 4+s for that....but thats not going to.happen often.

After seeing my hurricanum having a good game, im struggling to feel that dropping him is the way to go even though i want more cheaper fodder...from a purely competitive position anyways. 

Metal hawks as bombers sounds super fun...ive thought about it a few times...didnt think of painting them as phoenixes but that too is a great idea.  I think bomber/copters could be helpful or at least fun...and thematic as well.  Ive also pondered the mantic balloon brigade as well...cuz i love the look of them...

https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-factions/halflings/aeronauts-regiment/

 

[readercolin]

So I was attempting to tone down my list a little bit for more casual games, and got 2 games in recently.  For my first list, I ran:

Annointed on Flamespyre (general)
5x assassins
4x 10 Phoenix Guard
5x 10 Shadow warriors

Note, this list was run solely as an excuse to field all 50 of my new shadow warriors, and I decided to see what spamming assassins would do for me.  Here I had a double warlord + hunters, and gave the phoenix golden mist + phoenix pyre ashes, and then I gave 1 assassin the vial of manticore venom and the other the arcane tome.

I ended up playing someone who was running Stormcast Paladins, with the following list:

2x Lord-Relictor (one as general w/ arcane tome)
Knight-Vexilor with Banner of Apotheosis
Yndrasta
5 Rextributors
5 Decimators
6 Annihilators with Grandhammers
3 Longstrikes
Emerald Lifeswarm

We played Feral Foray, and my opponent decided that rather than playing objectives, he wanted to smash face and see how much he could kill.  This basically meant he gave the game away, but it is interesting how it turned out anyways.  I deployed my phoenix guard to hold my objectives and be wholly within 12" of my bird, and all my shadow warriors and assassins off the board.  He went first, and dropped everything down to hit one of my squads of phoenix guard, but only succeeded in charging his annihilators.  I popped out 3 assassins, and he took out 3 assassins + 9 phoenix guard, and I took out 5 annihilators in exchange.  On my turn, I flew over his annihilator with the phoenix and rolled a 1, leaving it alive.  I also pulled my lone phoenix guard away from him, and he re-deployed out of charge range (and right next to yndrasta).  Shadow warriors came down and attempted to shoot it, failing to kill it.  Shadow warriors also grabbed 2 of his objectives, and failed to kill his relictor or his longstrikes.

Turn 2, he went first, and got lucky with the emerald lifeswarm to bring back an annihilator, and yndrasta brought back another.  I rallied back 2 phoenix guard to my squad of 1.  He charged and took out 1 squad of shadow warriors and the 3 phoenix guard, but avoided engaging anything else near my phoenix.  He also charged a block of shadow warriors with his relictor in his back field, and I popped 2 assassins out to slay it.  On my turn, I once again attempted to fly over his annihilators with my bird, and once again rolled a 1 dealing 0 mortal wounds.  I re-positioned to screen my bird with 2 squads of phoenix guard, and moved up to get in range of his longstrikes hiding in the corner.  I managed to kill 1 annihilator with shooting (leaving him back at 2), and 1 longstrike.

Turn 3, I got the double, flew over his annihilators again, this time rolling a 5 so I did 5 mortals and left 1 on 1 wound, then kept castling on my middle objective, screening my bird with phoenix guard.  Meanwhile, my shadow warriors and assassins killed his longstrikes, and a squad of 10 barely managed to put the last wound on the annihilators, finishing them off.  On his turn, he charged my phoenix guard with Yndrasta, his relictor, and the decimators (which were buffed with +1 to wound and exploding 6's to hit), but decided to split his decimators damage between a squad of 8 guard and the phoenix, killing neither.  I managed to kill 3 decimators in return, and not much happened to yndrasta or the relictor.

Turn 4, I won the roll off and we decided to stop.  I had a commanding lead in points, though we were barely keeping track as he just wanted to smash.  But in the end I killed his annihilators, 1 relictor, his longstrikes, and 3 decimators, while he killed 3 assassins and 1 full squad of phoenix guard and 7 guys from the second squad, which we both agreed put me in the lead on the "taking heads" score.

For my second game, I made some small adjustments, bringing in some "gyrobombers".  I ran the following:

Annointed on Flamespyre (general)
3x assassins
4x 10 Phoenix Guard
4x 10 Shadow warriors
3x Gyrobombers

I ran into flesh eater courts with something like the following:

Archregent
Ghoul King on Terrorgheist
another hero? or two?
2x Fell Bats (allies)
3-4? Crypt Ghouls
2x Terrorgheists
Chalice
Horrorghast

Once again, we ran Feral Foray (my dice liked that mission), and I deployed with my phoenix guard around my bird and the gyrobombers blocking summoning from the back board edges.  This didn't really matter as he was able to put 1 terrorgheist into a gyrobomber (despite being deployed near the back of the objective zone), and he was able to summon in 2 squads of crypt flayers that were able to take out another gyrobomber when they came in and wound the last bomber.  On my turn, I threw a squad of guard into the terrorgheist that took out my bomber, killing it, and also brought down 2 squads of shadow warriors to shoot some stuff up.

Turn 2, he got his buffs off on his ghoul king giving it +3 attacks and a 5+ ward, and then he brought both remaining terrorgheists into my flank.  I popped some more assassins out and killed 1 gheist, but otherwise he cleared both squads of guard and my assassins.  On my turn, I brought in my last shadow warriors, did some shooting, and failed to kill his ghoul king which healed back to full from the chalice (twice).  Despite my attempts to be tricky and take out his crypt flayers and secure an objective, he was able to pile in to my phoenix, deal 21 damage (and I failed exactly 13 wards), and then I failed my 4+ to come back at full health, and he was able to double-pile in and finish off my phoenix guard.

This left me with 1 bomber, 1 squad of guard, and 4 squads of shadow warriors, while he controlled all 3 of his objectives and 1 of mine, and he still had his arch-regent + all his ghouls still ready to come in.  I took turn 3 and failed to accomplish anything, and we called it after that as I saw no way I could get back into the game or kill his terrorgheist.

[Lord Krungharr]

Have any of you Phoenicium players played against Drakfoot Bonesplitterz?  Just curious how necessary ward saves really are for other armies that have them.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[readercolin]

Some conclusions that I have come to as a result of my recent games.

First off, the Flamespyre Phoenix is noticeably worse than the frostheart.  Mortal wounds on a normal move aren't a great reason to bring it, coming back to life is really un-reliable, and it is a LOT worse in melee than the frostheart.  I will probably continue to run mine if I want a 2 phoenix list, but if I had a 2nd frostheart I wouldn't.  If GW errata's the flamespyre to deal mortals on a normal move, retreat, or run, I might run the flamespyre again, but realistically it needs to drop to ~250 points, maybe less.  If anyone wants to complain about it being too strong, I'm going to note that the average damage of an un-bracketed flamespyre is 5.78... before saves.  This is NOT a 290 point monster.  It doesn't even take buffs well.

Secondly, shadow warriors are truly mediocre.  Yes, they have deepstrike, and can help you do things like snipe out some longstrikes that your opponent failed to screen well enough.  They are good for forcing an opponent to hold back on their objectives.  However, you probably shouldn't run more than 2 squads, max.  That is enough to force your opponents to hold back some, threaten objectives, and maybe deal some cheeky damage.  But once they are on the board, they are underwhelming enough that bringing them is HIGHLY questionable.

Third, assassins aren't worth it.  I know, I know, them dying is an easy way to trigger Vengeful Revenants, but honestly they could remove that "buff" from the city and most of the time you wouldn't even notice.  They are good for deploying off the board and being cheeky, and if you have a spare 80 points you can throw one in.  But you are going to get more effectiveness from your list if you leave them at home.  They are fun though, and if you really want to run assassins, this IS the city to do it in.

Fourth, Gryobombers suck.  Yes, I just "built" and ran 3 of them.  But they aren't enough of a threat to force your opponents to really care, their speed isn't enough to drop bombs and get out of threat range, they are terrible in melee, and their average ranged damage is ~1... before saves.  They are a great way to tone down your list for more casual play, but you need to be honest with yourself that that is what you are doing.  Gryocopters with brimstone guns MAY be worth playing if you are facing a lot of hordes locally, but that isn't really where the game is at right now.

I'm still having fun with the city, and have a few more builds I plan to try out.  So far, THE reason to run the city is "Living Idols", so as long as you can take advantage of that, the Phoenicium can be a good pick for you.  But I think that building it more like a "normal" city that can take advantage of the fight on death trigger is going to get you further than trying to take advantage of any other gimmicks the city can do.

[readercolin]

10 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Have any of you Phoenicium players played against Drakfoot Bonesplitterz?  Just curious how necessary ward saves really are for other armies that have them.

I'm sorry, played against what?  What are these... bonesplitterz?

On a more serious note, I have yet to see a bonesplitterz player... ever.  There may be someone that has the army and just keeps it on a shelf, but I've been playing for 4-5 years and have never seen them hit the table.

If you want to know how effective/useful ward saves are for other armies, I've seen a few Fyreslayer players bringing out their Hearthguard, and I've played against Nurgle and Legion of the First Prince with their 5+ ward effects a few times, and I've even played against troggs with their 5+ wards.  5+ or better wards are really good, and they really force someone to have to overkill a unit if they want to guarantee that it dies.  Wards are really good for a unit that wants to get in there and grind.  They are really good for forcing an opponent to over-commit to guarantee that something dies.  Sometimes it is really, really over-committing, because all the ward rolls get failed anyways.  Sometimes, it still isn't enough if your opponent rolls hot.  I've had a block of 20 phoenix guard survive a reinforced fulminator charge because my dice were running hot.  I've also had a block of 10 fail every single ward roll and die with a whimper.  But adding in those extra wards is a good way of adding uncertainty to a game, as now your opponents can't just go "yeah, phoenix guard are basically 20 wound units" and get away with it.  I mean, on average, they would be correct... but that isn't how it plays out in game.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ah I see, the overkill.  That makes great sense.  I ask because Drakkfoot subfaction ignores ward saves. 

I've played vs the Phoenicium but not since early AoS 2.0 and remember them being tough to eliminate.  Seeing that Nurgle won, or got close to winning (sort of a debacle) Adepticon last weekend, thinking something that ignores ward saves might be worth trying.

When I run my Cities though, sure do love the Frostheart Phoenix!  Not sure all my Dwarves would fill out a Phoenicium real well though would they?  Hmmmm  Probably need another Phoenix to really max out the benefits.

[readercolin]

6 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Ah I see, the overkill.  That makes great sense.  I ask because Drakkfoot subfaction ignores ward saves. 

I've played vs the Phoenicium but not since early AoS 2.0 and remember them being tough to eliminate.  Seeing that Nurgle won, or got close to winning (sort of a debacle) Adepticon last weekend, thinking something that ignores ward saves might be worth trying.

When I run my Cities though, sure do love the Frostheart Phoenix!  Not sure all my Dwarves would fill out a Phoenicium real well though would they?  Hmmmm  Probably need another Phoenix to really max out the benefits.

Casually, you can get away with 1 Phoenix as long as your opponent doesn't have strong shooting to take it down.  Competitively you really need 2.  As for the other units, fight on death means you can guarantee output from them, so dwarves can work well, but will remain a little slow.  Again, if your opponent is hitting you in melee, the phoenecium is strong, but if they can put out damage in other phases they become less useful.

[readercolin]

Tried out a different list this last week, and thought it went fairly well.  What I ran:

Flamespyre (general)
Frostheart (arcane tome)
4x 10 phoenix guard
4 Stormdrake Guard
2x Battle Regiment

The idea with this list was that stormdrake guard are good, lets see how that works with the Phoenicium.  I ended up playing against a knights of the empty throne list that looked like this:

6 Varanguard
3 Varanguard
Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
Bloodsecrator
Demon Prince (khorne)
Warshrine
Splintered Fangs
Iron Golems
2x Untamed Beasts

Mission was Tooth and Nail... which had basically no impact on either of us.  I deployed my Flamespyre and phoenix guard on the short flank, and the frostheart + dragons towards the long one.  He deployed his varanguard nearer to my phoenix guard, and then pre-game moved his untamed beasts forward to be just off the objectives.  I decided to go first, and took 3 objectives, and the dragons did 8 damage to his untamed beasts.  On his turn, he charged his varanguard into my phoenix guard, and then proceeded to kill 7 from 1 squad, 5 from a second, and 9 from a third, failing to finish anything off.  But he failed to take the objective from me, leaving us at 5-3 in my favor.

He won the roll off, and he proceeded to kill some more phoenix guard, leaving me with 4 guard and my flamespyre left.  He also moved his smaller squad of varanguard back to take my back objective, and scored 5 points.  On my turn, I hero phase moved my dragons, moved again in the movement phase, and just collapsed towards the objectives where the varanguard were.  Shooting phase killed his remaining smaller unit of varanguard, and then I got a charge off to get 1 dragon into his guys and left the rest strung out.  However, he killed my flamespyre, and I am now 0-5 on succeeding on that 4+ to come back at full health.  Score was 11-9 in my favor.

Turn 3, I won the roll off, but decided to go second, removing the objective that I had abandoned.  He moved up and charged my dragons with everything that he could.  I lost 1 dragon, and dealt some damage here and there.  On my turn, I killed his last varanguard and his demon prince, but was still in combat with his warshrine.  Score was 17-13.

Turn 4, I won the roll off and we called it, as I could just sit back on my objectives and he didn't have enough left to go through the dragons, or take the objectives away from me.

Overall, my conclusion from this is that stormdrakes remain good and can work well in a list like this.  However, the phoenicium doesn't really provide many advantages for the stormdrakes, and I'm not sure it is really worth bringing the dragons here vs hammerhall or the living city.

[basement dweller]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:00 AM, readercolin said:

Overall, my conclusion from this is that stormdrakes remain good and can work well in a list like this.  However, the phoenicium doesn't really provide many advantages for the stormdrakes, and I'm not sure it is really worth bringing the dragons here vs hammerhall or the living city.

Nice to see you still winning with the Phoencium.  I tend to agree qbout thr dragons....feel they are better in living city.  My epxerience with hammerhall is zilch, so less confident about that.

I like that you made your fire phoenix the general...that way your opponent has to decide which one to kill as you made the fire more valuable as your general.  

I played 2 -1000 point games against new deepkin and flesh eaters.  Lost both but bith very close.  My list was also not optimized for 1000 points as i wanted to use my usual units to help me memorize the rules (2 phoenix guard, frost phoenix, 2 assasins, 1 shadow warriors, 1 chariot).

What did i learn?

Fish hit hard now...no eels needed.  However, this list rolling well can take the full charge and not budge...especially with dying models getting to strike before they leave.  I retailiated and things evened out.  Lost on the final 2 turns when i missed a 7 inch charge with reroll, then an 8 inch charge with reroll.

Scourge runner chariots are geneally worth the 80 points.  Often get an objective first turn.  Can get lucky with mortals and irritate your opponent.  Opponent has to over commit to deal with it as you can send shadow warriors and assassins to reinforce it or keep them with your phoenix guard depending what your opponent does.

I often have to go first....and there is no need to go to the objetives and give your opponent the ability to charge and dictate the combat.  I have to let go of those victory points if my opponent is largely fast..or sacrifice something.  Against the eels i rollled well and got away with it.  Against the flesh eaters i didnt roll great and got beat.  I think i could have slow played both and used the assasins/shadow warriors better.

Still a fun list.  Chariot did 11 damage against the fish...assasson did 6 mortal wound against the glesh eater general and kill him for those big victory points....

Im tempted to try out the dual phoenixes in living city with some deep striking archers....but want to stick with phoenicium...for now...

[readercolin]

So I just got done with a team tournament and I brought out my Phoenicium to represent.  The following is what I ran:

List I took:
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Phoenicium
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix (290)*
- General
- Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice - Golden Mist
- Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Sorceress (95)*
- Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
20 x Phoenix Guard (350)**
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Phoenix Guard (350)**
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)**
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)*
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)*
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104
Drops: 9

Overall in the event, I had the best army on my team against "all comers", and therefore was usually the sacrifice that was thrown out because I didn't really have bad matchups.  Gameplay bore this out, as most of my games were fairly close, and I ended with a 3/2 record and my team took second place in overall score.

As for my games, a quick review:

Game 1: Stormcast - longstrikes + fulminators on Apex Predators.  This match can be summed up in an army with rend -1 struggles to go through a 2+ ignore rend-1.  Basically, a whole lot of nothing happened, with fulminators failing to go through the phoenix's + phoenix guard, and me unable to go through them back.  This game ended on round 3 as a loss for me with a score of 14/13.

Game 2: IDK - incarnage + magic eidolon + blender king + 12 eels.  Here, we saw the power of the blender king, as it charged on turn 2 and gave itself fight first and then proceeded to go through 21 phoenix guard on its own.  However, my opponent over-committed and then proceeded to attempt to go for the kill, rather than playing to objectives, and therefore lost.  This game ended on round 5, with a win for me with a score of 24/15.

Game 3: Legion of the first prince - Be'Lakor, Kairos, GUO, 2x10 pinks and 5 dogs.  This game turned into a massive dual of "steal objectives and burn immediately", and due to me failing to win every single priority roll I barely failed to kill kairos, and he kept be'lakor's ability till turn 5 to deny my final battle tactic, resulting in a score of 17/15 and my second loss.

Game 4: Stormcast - annihilators + longstrikes on survival of the fittest.  Here, 1 squad of annihilators + longstrikes were able to burn through 20 phoenix guard in a single turn.  However, fight on death showed its worth again and the game turned into a bit of a slugfest.  My opponent made a mistake in positioning on turn 4 and failed their battle tactic, which then tilted them into making potentially un-optimal plays on turn 5, leading to a 24/17 victory.

Game 5: Gloomspite Gitz with the trogg herd on Tectonic Interference.  This game was a grindy mash in the middle of the board, and it turns out the phoenix temple was better at grinding.  I eventually killed everything but their Troggoth Hag, and pulled out a win with 31/24.

Overall, my MVP was the Frostheart Phoenix.  It was able to get where I needed it to go, do the damage I needed it to do, and the -1 to wound de-buff was felt in every game.  That being said, I can't really advise running multiple because its damage is remarkably underwhelming without flaming weapon.

Overall, my least valuable was probably the shadow warriors.  I'm pretty sure I could have done better in basically every single game if I replaced them with something else... anything else.  Over the course of the entire tournament, they successfully killed 3 longstrikes and a single Khorne Dog.  This was not worth dedicating 240 points towards, though the army really does need an additional shooting threat.

I think 20 man blocks of phoenix guard are good in a Phoenicium list.  Rally + emerald lifeswarm is enough to let you really grind with phoenix guard.  That being said, it does leave you less points you can spend on other units, which can be a downside.  All this being said, fight on death really breaks the rhythm of the game, and really slow things down.  Keeping your distances in mind and maneuvering around that can also be really annoying in game as well, and it requires a lot of thinking.  This isn't a problem for me with single games, but multiple games in a day is a fast way to burning out.  Therefore, I'm going to be putting the Phoenicium down for a while and try something new for future tournaments.  I'll probably pull out the Phoenicium for fun, as I love the army, but I just don't have the brain power to keep that up over 3 games a day.